Paul Weiss Corporate?

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Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:10 pm

Hi I am interested in capital markets work, although open to trying out other corporate practice areas. I have offers from Paul Weiss (corporate), Willkie, Jones Day, and White & Case all in New York City. I am genuinely conflicted. The people all seemed nice and I'm wondering which firm people would choose looking at exit ops, and work environment/culture etc. Thank you!!

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:19 pm

All anecdotal.

Jones Day (from my time with the firm) is a sh*tshow. You just can't pay 3rd-6th years undermarket and keep them around in NYC.

Wilkie Corp (in my experience across the table) was underwhelming to say the least.

PW has been hit or miss (lots of new bodies and growth).

White & Case is interesting, seemed competent across the table but not one of my classmates is still there (hired about 8 from my school).

Exit ops should be generally the same from all of these, maybe a bit better from White & Case b/c of their more public company/cap mkts focus.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:43 am

White and Case for cap mkts is no brainer

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:46 am

But on chambers & partners, Paul Weiss is ahead of all these firms on almost all corporate practice areas (m&a, capital markets, securitization etc)

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby deepseapartners » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:But on chambers & partners, Paul Weiss is ahead of all these firms on almost all corporate practice areas (m&a, capital markets, securitization etc)

This is why you can't use Chambers exclusively, even if it's a better way to evaluate firms than Vault. Paul Weiss has a very active corporate practice, but in comparison to its peer firms, (a) it's had a lot of internal shakeups recently with Scott Barshay's arrival, and (b) a pretty high proportion of its legacy corporate work was/is for Apollo. Not saying OP shouldn't go there, it has a very strong reputation in New York especially, but just keep that in mind when you are looking at rankings comparisons.

OP, I agree with the above re White & Case if you have any interest in capital markets or cross-border transactions, but these firms are all going to give you about the same level of midlevel corp exit options. Cultural fit is probably your best measure of how to choose.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:25 pm

PW has a much better capital markets practice than W&C by every measure and has far more work than Apollo. It's crazy to even see W&C mentioned as a no brainer comparison. It is the other way around. For background: I am a capital markets non-share partner at Kirkland.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:58 pm

Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Do you have input on Weil? Considering some of these firms + Weil. Interested particularly in M&A and Cap Mkts.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Do you have input on Weil? Considering some of these firms + Weil. Interested particularly in M&A and Cap Mkts.


Weil does a fair mix of issuer and underwriter/bank side representation in cap markets transactions. They have a fair to plus general capital markets practice doing PE and support work for the restructuring practice, which is great to avoid the cyclical boom/bust nature of the capital markets. I think M&A is fairly well regarded but I honestly do not practice in that area on a daily basis and have not paid much attention to it for a few years since focusing on cap markets.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:33 pm

nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).


Super helpful, thanks! I mostly just want to get a good broad cap markets experience as a junior and figure it out from there, I think. I got good vibes from Skadden, but I didn't want to go to some firm that has a poorly regarded cap markets practice in the cap markets community without my realizing it. So this puts my mind at ease.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).


Super helpful, thanks! I mostly just want to get a good broad cap markets experience as a junior and figure it out from there, I think. I got good vibes from Skadden, but I didn't want to go to some firm that has a poorly regarded cap markets practice in the cap markets community without my realizing it. So this puts my mind at ease.


You should get a good mix of work from Skadden. Did you interview with Latham or Fried Frank? They both have broad cap markets practices.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:16 pm

nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).


Super helpful, thanks! I mostly just want to get a good broad cap markets experience as a junior and figure it out from there, I think. I got good vibes from Skadden, but I didn't want to go to some firm that has a poorly regarded cap markets practice in the cap markets community without my realizing it. So this puts my mind at ease.


You should get a good mix of work from Skadden. Did you interview with Latham or Fried Frank? They both have broad cap markets practices.


No, just Skadden, Cravath and Weil.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:27 pm

nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).


Super helpful, thanks! I mostly just want to get a good broad cap markets experience as a junior and figure it out from there, I think. I got good vibes from Skadden, but I didn't want to go to some firm that has a poorly regarded cap markets practice in the cap markets community without my realizing it. So this puts my mind at ease.


You should get a good mix of work from Skadden. Did you interview with Latham or Fried Frank? They both have broad cap markets practices.


Thoughts on Cravath cap markets?

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).


Super helpful, thanks! I mostly just want to get a good broad cap markets experience as a junior and figure it out from there, I think. I got good vibes from Skadden, but I didn't want to go to some firm that has a poorly regarded cap markets practice in the cap markets community without my realizing it. So this puts my mind at ease.


You should get a good mix of work from Skadden. Did you interview with Latham or Fried Frank? They both have broad cap markets practices.


Thoughts on Cravath cap markets?


Have multiple colleagues from there who do capital markets and all said the same things: (1) they do not teach you anything - you just have to learn on your own, which really works for some but is suicide for others; (2) the expectations and hours are really hard to handle and this is coming from people who were gunners or work a lot of hours now and (3) the practice is narrowly focused on large banks and institutionals. Capital markets is best on the fringes, working with the non-investment grad companies and doing as many deals as possible. If you just do large companies, investment grade debt and equity and all bank/underwriter work, you will not be marketable after a few years of practicing cap markets.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:36 pm

nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you just do large companies, investment grade debt and equity and all bank/underwriter work, you will not be marketable after a few years of practicing cap markets.



1: Thank you so much for all of this, it's very helpful and interesting.

2: Can you expand on the above? That strikes me (as someone who knows nothing about this) as counterintuitive, and I'd like to understand.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you just do large companies, investment grade debt and equity and all bank/underwriter work, you will not be marketable after a few years of practicing cap markets.



1: Thank you so much for all of this, it's very helpful and interesting.

2: Can you expand on the above? That strikes me (as someone who knows nothing about this) as counterintuitive, and I'd like to understand.


It is counterintuitive for sure. Equity: removing IPOs (which are awesome and all encompassing), equity is boring especially with WKSIs or large companies. You do very little drafting, you get very few comments or chances to interact with the SEC and use your brain, and you just take precedent and update dates and numbers and register equity, issue equity off a shelf or whatever. If you do 4-5 of these deals you pretty much know what you are doing and need little supervision. This is good for some people and I can see that comfort being, well, comforting. But is you want to stick around you need to know how to do more than these things. Really 1-3 years are the only ones doing these easy offerings. Debt: primary example is an investment grade corporate bond. These are again just flipping precedent, very little thought and contain hardly any covenants. Working with these larger companies and doing these types of deals will give you a basic education on capital markets and one will feel like they know all there is to know but at the 4-6 year an associate becomes too expensive for those deals/clients and then needs to go to more complex transactions (if any) or start to manage 10 times as many deals but do less work on them (and more importantly, build business relationships). This is when most people realize they will not make it at the firm and move on. The downside is the first that need mid to senior level associates are firms that need those associates to do the more complex work. So you have to start over a little bit and very quickly to prove yourself. OR go in house at a bank. Obviously the doors are open.

But if you start at a firm like PW or Kirkland or any other largely issuer side firm doing non-investment grade or restructuring or LBOs then you will be set up for longer at the firm or another biglaw firm so you can stay in the game longer. To each his own. I would have loved to know this before starting at a firm so I hope you find it helpful.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby tripu11 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:46 pm

nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the know who can inform how's Skadden is perceived relative to all of the above, specifically with cap markets? All I ever hear about them is that they are great for M&A, but I want to do cap markets specifically..


Skadden does mostly issuer side work for pubcos and is really great. There is some private company bond/equity work and LBO financing to keep it interesting. Do you want to do bank side or issuer side cap markets transactions? Because if you go to DPW for cap markets your experience will be far different that if you go to Kirkland or PW (for example).


Super helpful, thanks! I mostly just want to get a good broad cap markets experience as a junior and figure it out from there, I think. I got good vibes from Skadden, but I didn't want to go to some firm that has a poorly regarded cap markets practice in the cap markets community without my realizing it. So this puts my mind at ease.


You should get a good mix of work from Skadden. Did you interview with Latham or Fried Frank? They both have broad cap markets practices.


Thoughts on Cravath cap markets?


Have multiple colleagues from there who do capital markets and all said the same things: (1) they do not teach you anything - you just have to learn on your own, which really works for some but is suicide for others; (2) the expectations and hours are really hard to handle and this is coming from people who were gunners or work a lot of hours now and (3) the practice is narrowly focused on large banks and institutionals. Capital markets is best on the fringes, working with the non-investment grad companies and doing as many deals as possible. If you just do large companies, investment grade debt and equity and all bank/underwriter work, you will not be marketable after a few years of practicing cap markets.


To correct the above poster, Cravath does primarily HY work, not IG work, albeit often as underwriters counsel. If you are implying the firm just does large companies, investment grade debt and equity and all bank/underwriter work, that is not correct. The firm has plenty of issuer clients (besides large institutionals like IBM/JNJ/TWX) and often represents underwriters in connection with IPOs. What the firm does not do is represent PE firms taking a portfolio company public, as the firm generally avoids PE representation.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:37 pm

I don't know because I never worked at Cravath but have multiple current colleagues who spent anywhere from 3-10 years there and have said there is a lot of investment grade debt and the high yield on the bank side is mostly paper churning, reviewing disclosure and negotiating purchase agreements. For sure Cravath does the occasional IPO (I say occasional because there just aren't that many IPOs in general for the last 2-3 years). Not implying anything but just stating that the practice is focused on those types of clients. And of course working there will lead to exit opportunities. I can tell you first hand that the associates coming from Cravath (3-6 years) were good at certain things like running deals and working hard but technical skills were lacking behind our associates.

Do you or did you work at Cravath?

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby tripu11 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:50 pm

nonsharepartner wrote:I don't know because I never worked at Cravath but have multiple current colleagues who spent anywhere from 3-10 years there and have said there is a lot of investment grade debt and the high yield on the bank side is mostly paper churning, reviewing disclosure and negotiating purchase agreements. For sure Cravath does the occasional IPO (I say occasional because there just aren't that many IPOs in general for the last 2-3 years). Not implying anything but just stating that the practice is focused on those types of clients. And of course working there will lead to exit opportunities. I can tell you first hand that the associates coming from Cravath (3-6 years) were good at certain things like running deals and working hard but technical skills were lacking behind our associates.

Do you or did you work at Cravath?


Yes, I currently work at Cravath and have for >5 years. I agree with most of what you said, but I have to emphasize that the focus of our capital markets practice is definitely not IG work, but rather HY work. I agree we mostly represent the banks on HY deals, although I think it's every bit as challenging on the bank-side as on the issuer-side of those deals. While bank-side work doesn't carry with it the responsibility to heard the cats at the company to draft and get sign-off on disclosure, I'm not sure I understand what work one does on the issuer-side that is not the same paper churning, reviewing disclosure and purchase agreement that bank-side counsel is doing. At the end of the day, I've had my fair share of issuer-side work and it's all the same. Not being argumentative, just trying to point out that our practice is more diverse than you made it seem. On the spectrum of capital markets work, IG work is pretty easy.

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Re: Paul Weiss Corporate?

Postby nonsharepartner » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:32 pm

tripu11 wrote:
nonsharepartner wrote:I don't know because I never worked at Cravath but have multiple current colleagues who spent anywhere from 3-10 years there and have said there is a lot of investment grade debt and the high yield on the bank side is mostly paper churning, reviewing disclosure and negotiating purchase agreements. For sure Cravath does the occasional IPO (I say occasional because there just aren't that many IPOs in general for the last 2-3 years). Not implying anything but just stating that the practice is focused on those types of clients. And of course working there will lead to exit opportunities. I can tell you first hand that the associates coming from Cravath (3-6 years) were good at certain things like running deals and working hard but technical skills were lacking behind our associates.

Do you or did you work at Cravath?


Yes, I currently work at Cravath and have for >5 years. I agree with most of what you said, but I have to emphasize that the focus of our capital markets practice is definitely not IG work, but rather HY work. I agree we mostly represent the banks on HY deals, although I think it's every bit as challenging on the bank-side as on the issuer-side of those deals. While bank-side work doesn't carry with it the responsibility to heard the cats at the company to draft and get sign-off on disclosure, I'm not sure I understand what work one does on the issuer-side that is not the same paper churning, reviewing disclosure and purchase agreement that bank-side counsel is doing. At the end of the day, I've had my fair share of issuer-side work and it's all the same. Not being argumentative, just trying to point out that our practice is more diverse than you made it seem. On the spectrum of capital markets work, IG work is pretty easy.


Defer to you completely on what your group does. Issuer side is more drafting, creating the company narrative, working with and getting to know the company and handling all they need internally. In my experience bank side is far more routine and you can have 4-5 deals going for every 1 issuer side deal. IG is kind of a joke on BOTH SIDES and most 1-2 years handle those with only marginal supervision. Also, I did not mean to insult Cravath at all. I hope you are getting a lot of experience and enjoying it (as much as one can).



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