CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

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CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:38 pm

Hi,

I'm at a T14, somewhere between median and top third, currently going through OCI. I've gotten a good number of callbacks, but they're all from kinda meh firms in NY, a few v20, several v20-50, 0 v10 (Not to rely heavily on vault, but just to give some sort of idea of what I'm considering meh). They're probably fine for someone who just wants biglaw, but I'm interested in lit, then clerking. Am I actually better off taking an offer from one of these firms (assuming I can turn the CBs into a few offers) or would my time be better spent doing an internship for the government (like DOJ or US Attorney's office or a fed judge)/something public interest? Obviously, I'd be down the $35k, but I'd rather do something that will actually help me significantly advance my career than take a job that won't do anything/potentially harm my career. Any advice, particularly from people who were in a similar situation? My debt is pretty minimal from law school ($60k total)

runinthefront

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby runinthefront » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi,

I'm at a T14, somewhere between median and top third, currently going through OCI. I've gotten a good number of callbacks, but they're all from kinda meh firms in NY, a few v20, several v20-50, 0 v10 (Not to rely heavily on vault, but just to give some sort of idea of what I'm considering meh). They're probably fine for someone who just wants biglaw, but I'm interested in lit, then clerking. Am I actually better off taking an offer from one of these firms (assuming I can turn the CBs into a few offers) or would my time be better spent doing an internship for the government (like DOJ or US Attorney's office or a fed judge)/something public interest? Obviously, I'd be down the $35k, but I'd rather do something that will actually help me significantly advance my career than take a job that won't do anything/potentially harm my career. Any advice, particularly from people who were in a similar situation? My debt is pretty minimal from law school ($60k total)

Not doing biglaw your 2L year may make it harder to land biglaw later. The (rebuttable) presumption from some may be that you couldn't snag a biglaw job as a 2L.

Then again, if you're turning your nose up at the firms willing to hire you now, you probably won't want to work for them later anyway

ETA: run
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MrT

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby MrT » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi,

I'm at a T14, somewhere between median and top third, currently going through OCI. I've gotten a good number of callbacks, but they're all from kinda meh firms in NY, a few v20, several v20-50, 0 v10 (Not to rely heavily on vault, but just to give some sort of idea of what I'm considering meh). They're probably fine for someone who just wants biglaw, but I'm interested in lit, then clerking. Am I actually better off taking an offer from one of these firms (assuming I can turn the CBs into a few offers) or would my time be better spent doing an internship for the government (like DOJ or US Attorney's office or a fed judge)/something public interest? Obviously, I'd be down the $35k, but I'd rather do something that will actually help me significantly advance my career than take a job that won't do anything/potentially harm my career. Any advice, particularly from people who were in a similar situation? My debt is pretty minimal from law school ($60k total)

It's unclear what your long-term goals are here. You say: lit --> clerk. Career clerk? You need to provide more info before anyone can help you.

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homestyle28

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi,

I'm at a T14, somewhere between median and top third, currently going through OCI. I've gotten a good number of callbacks, but they're all from kinda meh firms in NY, a few v20, several v20-50, 0 v10 (Not to rely heavily on vault, but just to give some sort of idea of what I'm considering meh). They're probably fine for someone who just wants biglaw, but I'm interested in lit, then clerking. Am I actually better off taking an offer from one of these firms (assuming I can turn the CBs into a few offers) or would my time be better spent doing an internship for the government (like DOJ or US Attorney's office or a fed judge)/something public interest? Obviously, I'd be down the $35k, but I'd rather do something that will actually help me significantly advance my career than take a job that won't do anything/potentially harm my career. Any advice, particularly from people who were in a similar situation? My debt is pretty minimal from law school ($60k total)


Take the CBs and ignore Vault rankings like most actual lawyers do.

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SmokeytheBear

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby SmokeytheBear » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:46 pm

This doesn't really make sense.

You say that you're "interested in lit, then clerking."

Do the firms you have callbacks from not do litigation?

If you want to do litigation and then clerk, going into biglaw is probably one of the better routes. Even if you want to do something else other than clerk, you'll get better training to be a litigator (assuming you stick around for more than one year) at a biglaw firm (depending on the firm) than most anywhere else.

But you still need to figure out what it is that you want, as you really don't make sense in your post.

$$$$$$

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby $$$$$$ » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi,

I'm at a T14, somewhere between median and top third, currently going through OCI. I've gotten a good number of callbacks, but they're all from kinda meh firms in NY, a few v20, several v20-50, 0 v10 (Not to rely heavily on vault, but just to give some sort of idea of what I'm considering meh). They're probably fine for someone who just wants biglaw, but I'm interested in lit, then clerking. Am I actually better off taking an offer from one of these firms (assuming I can turn the CBs into a few offers) or would my time be better spent doing an internship for the government (like DOJ or US Attorney's office or a fed judge)/something public interest? Obviously, I'd be down the $35k, but I'd rather do something that will actually help me significantly advance my career than take a job that won't do anything/potentially harm my career. Any advice, particularly from people who were in a similar situation? My debt is pretty minimal from law school ($60k total)


Never heard of firms in the V20 being considered "meh" before

Gunner19

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Gunner19 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:52 pm

Calling several V20 firms "meh" is pretty comical. The prestige is strong with this one.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:54 pm

Just finished my SA at a vault 60-70 firm, had v20 offers for lit specifically. Dont regret it for a second. Better fit, more opportunity to get experience earlier on. Wrote major motions in multi million dollar litigation that was reviewed and filed in federal court completely unchanged from my work. I wouldn't get the opportunity to do that at a "v20".

Just depends on what you want.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby OutCold » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:58 pm

If you want to litigate, then going the big firm route is going to be your best available option. Most of the trial or appellate-focused lit boutiques won't even hire you until you either have a clerkship lined up or are applying out of your clerkship. I can't for the life of me understand why you think that anything outside of the v10 is "meh." Examples of firms outside the v10 that have great litigation departments: PW, Quinn, W&C, Boies, Munger, Irell, Susman. Any large law firm is going to be a good place to start. From personal experience, v5 lit in NY has some of the most boring work you'll find.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:59 pm

OP here.

Sorry for being unclear. Would like to clerk, then would like to go to a strong litigation firm or, more ideally if there's a new administration/no hiring freeze, a government honors program.

Regarding the CBs I have, they don't seem to be known for strong litigation (at least to the same extent as say Jones Day or Kirkland), or there are other concerns that I've read on here. For example, Paul Hastings or Hogan Lovells NY.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:00 pm

JFC at a future litigator asking "I didn't get any V10 callbacks, is Biglaw even worth it anymore?"

I hate this fucking profession.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

Sorry for being unclear. Would like to clerk, then would like to go to a strong litigation firm or, more ideally if there's a new administration/no hiring freeze, a government honors program.

Regarding the CBs I have, they don't seem to be known for strong litigation (at least to the same extent as say Jones Day or Kirkland), or there are other concerns that I've read on here. For example, Paul Hastings or Hogan Lovells NY.


So go to a strong lit group at a v50. Dumbass. Doesn't have to be v20 or some artificial BS.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby tyroneslothrop1 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:05 pm

Yeah honestly you've outperformed your stats and you should be pleased with you callbacks. You probably will be unable to land an Art III clerkship with your stats absent unusual circumstances. Get one of these biglaw jobs and be happy.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:06 pm

OutCold wrote:If you want to litigate, then going the big firm route is going to be your best available option. Most of the trial or appellate-focused lit boutiques won't even hire you until you either have a clerkship lined up or are applying out of your clerkship. I can't for the life of me understand why you think that anything outside of the v10 is "meh." Examples of firms outside the v10 that have great litigation departments: PW, Quinn, W&C, Boies, Munger, Irell, Susman. Any large law firm is going to be a good place to start. From personal experience, v5 lit in NY has some of the most boring work you'll find.

Absolutely, there are excellent firms outside v10 that are great for litigation. Those are, however, equally/more selective. My point (admittedly unclear and perhaps poorly worded) was just that the firms I got weren't really outstanding firms for litigation...

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby lavarman84 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OutCold wrote:If you want to litigate, then going the big firm route is going to be your best available option. Most of the trial or appellate-focused lit boutiques won't even hire you until you either have a clerkship lined up or are applying out of your clerkship. I can't for the life of me understand why you think that anything outside of the v10 is "meh." Examples of firms outside the v10 that have great litigation departments: PW, Quinn, W&C, Boies, Munger, Irell, Susman. Any large law firm is going to be a good place to start. From personal experience, v5 lit in NY has some of the most boring work you'll find.

Absolutely, there are excellent firms outside v10 that are great for litigation. Those are, however, equally/more selective. My point (admittedly unclear and perhaps poorly worded) was just that the firms I got weren't really outstanding firms for litigation...


Take one of the biglaw SAs. You need the signaling if you don't get a clerkship. As for litigation, Vault rankings are more geared towards Corporate than anything. You might be 100% right that you didn't land any outstanding litigation firms, but there's nothing you can do about that at this point. Without a biglaw SA, you're going to have little chance to ever land with those firms.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Take the callbacks.

Who is actually strong in certain lit areas in terms of letting you learn and giving sophisticated work to juniors will surprise you and firms do tend to respect smaller lit shops.

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OutCold

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby OutCold » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:29 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
OutCold wrote:If you want to litigate, then going the big firm route is going to be your best available option. Most of the trial or appellate-focused lit boutiques won't even hire you until you either have a clerkship lined up or are applying out of your clerkship. I can't for the life of me understand why you think that anything outside of the v10 is "meh." Examples of firms outside the v10 that have great litigation departments: PW, Quinn, W&C, Boies, Munger, Irell, Susman. Any large law firm is going to be a good place to start. From personal experience, v5 lit in NY has some of the most boring work you'll find.

Absolutely, there are excellent firms outside v10 that are great for litigation. Those are, however, equally/more selective. My point (admittedly unclear and perhaps poorly worded) was just that the firms I got weren't really outstanding firms for litigation...


Take one of the biglaw SAs. You need the signaling if you don't get a clerkship. As for litigation, Vault rankings are more geared towards Corporate than anything. You might be 100% right that you didn't land any outstanding litigation firms, but there's nothing you can do about that at this point. Without a biglaw SA, you're going to have little chance to ever land with those firms.

This is what I was trying to convey. Even the "best" big law lit departments aren't great places to be a litigator. They are highly leveraged, the work is fairly dull and generic, and you won't have great substantive opportunities until fairly late in your career. But short of DOJ honors or jumping straight into a trial boutique out of a clerkship, it's the best place to start if you want the opportunity to do better things later on. There's going to be minimal difference between the work you see at Skadden vs. JD vs. Hogan vs. Paul Hastings all in NY. Biglaw litigation is biglaw litigation, and especially in NY, the work is all rooted in the bank clients. Now if you were trying to compare some sub-specialty, like white collar, bankruptcy, or antitrust there is less fungibility.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:34 pm

JFC

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SmokeytheBear

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby SmokeytheBear » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:35 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:JFC at a future litigator asking "I didn't get any V10 callbacks, is Biglaw even worth it anymore?"

I hate this fucking profession.


I bet we'd be drinking buddies.

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cron1834

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby cron1834 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:36 pm

The combo of average grades and a generally clueless/dipshit presentation here strongly suggests you've over-performed your numbers. I wouldn't expect higher than v20, for what it's worth. Either that's good enough for you or it's not... no one here is going to be able to resolve that for ya.

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Mullens » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OutCold wrote:If you want to litigate, then going the big firm route is going to be your best available option. Most of the trial or appellate-focused lit boutiques won't even hire you until you either have a clerkship lined up or are applying out of your clerkship. I can't for the life of me understand why you think that anything outside of the v10 is "meh." Examples of firms outside the v10 that have great litigation departments: PW, Quinn, W&C, Boies, Munger, Irell, Susman. Any large law firm is going to be a good place to start. From personal experience, v5 lit in NY has some of the most boring work you'll find.

Absolutely, there are excellent firms outside v10 that are great for litigation. Those are, however, equally/more selective. My point (admittedly unclear and perhaps poorly worded) was just that the firms I got weren't really outstanding firms for litigation...


So you should turn them all down. Let the spots go to someone who will be appreciative.

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rpupkin

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby rpupkin » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:47 pm

Hey OP, it's odd for someone interested in lit to care about Vault, which is essentially a rough ranking of the strength of the corporate practices at various firms.

With a couple of arguable exceptions, the firms that carry the most "prestige" in lit aren't in the V10.

Blackfish

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby Blackfish » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:52 pm

lol just fuck this profession.

lolwat

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby lolwat » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:53 pm

God damnit i wonder how many ppl like this got callbacks during OCI at my school when i got nothing

Anyway

Go look at chambers for a better idea of the quality of litigation practices. Vault is corporate-heavy.

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BlendedUnicorn

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Re: CBs from Meh Firms- What to do

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:58 pm

Blackfish wrote:lol just fuck this profession.


I mean you're not wrong but you gotta own an opinion like that.

e. other posters abusing anon ITT were outed too.



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