Law Firms to Stay Away From

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Trump's favorite (Paul Weiss). An associate broke down two years ago at a UMichigan recruiting dinner and started crying/ranting about how she never gets to go home.

Huh? What makes you say this over JD or Morgan Lewis, who have/had represented him during his time as president?

Aside from that, do you have sense for the seniority of the associate? It's also concerning considering usually recruiting events are staffed by individuals who are particularly rosy about their firm. I was aware PW worked hard, but never going home? Also, why attend a recruiting event out of town if you want to spend more time at home...

I suppose this in particular threw me because I've heard people at PW generally like their work even though it's long hours. I'm considering PW, so this is of particular relevance I suppose.

Pretty sure first anon is just confused. Afaik, Trump hasn't used PW for anything. In fact, PW leadership has been outspoken about opposing Trump.

And the hours can be long, but the sense I got as an SA was that it wasn't much worse than any other NYC biglaw firm, and the work environment was pretty good. Really, any list of "law firms to stay away from" is going to jump the shark if it includes PW. Long hours pales in comparison to the financial and cultural problems plaguing these other firms.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Trump's favorite (Paul Weiss). An associate broke down two years ago at a UMichigan recruiting dinner and started crying/ranting about how she never gets to go home.

Huh? What makes you say this over JD or Morgan Lewis, who have/had represented him during his time as president?

Aside from that, do you have sense for the seniority of the associate? It's also concerning considering usually recruiting events are staffed by individuals who are particularly rosy about their firm. I was aware PW worked hard, but never going home? Also, why attend a recruiting event out of town if you want to spend more time at home...

I suppose this in particular threw me because I've heard people at PW generally like their work even though it's long hours. I'm considering PW, so this is of particular relevance I suppose.


Not the anon above - but the PW associates I met during my CB said they usually worked 10-10 or 11-11 (and "often stay later"). Also PW seems to have a stricter dress code (everyone I met was full business formal) & more of a facetime requirement than some other places, which also makes a difference. Of course all BigLaw is long hours but I hear 9:30-7:30/8 is more typical at Deb, by way of example, and if you can get away with wearing leggings to work, or leaving the office for dinner and working from home the rest of the night, that helps. "Long hours" isn't identical everywhere.

None of this is to rain on PW, I think they're a great firm and definitely do NOT belong with the other firms named on this thread (lumping PW with Paul Hastings? Really?). But important to consider whether you're suited for their culture.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:00 pm

Yea, I'm a junior at PW and it really isn't that bad. I'm on pace for 2000ish this year and that is roughly average. So can be long hours but not miserable.

Also, I have zero concerns about the firm's financial health, which is nice and in some ways the flip side of being busy.

I think OP may just be confused especially w the trump comment. We have a reputation as a pretty liberal firm, firm leadership has criticized trump, and we have been doing a ton of pro bono work fighting the administration, ESP wrt immigration work.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yea, I'm a junior at PW and it really isn't that bad. I'm on pace for 2000ish this year and that is roughly average. So can be long hours but not miserable.

Also, I have zero concerns about the firm's financial health, which is nice and in some ways the flip side of being busy.

I think OP may just be confused especially w the trump comment. We have a reputation as a pretty liberal firm, firm leadership has criticized trump, and we have been doing a ton of pro bono work fighting the administration, ESP wrt immigration work.


Not to derail this thread further but are you in lit or corp? Because the 10-10 days I heard about in lit seem like they'd yield well north of 2000 billables...

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Vincent Adultman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Trump's favorite (Paul Weiss). An associate broke down two years ago at a UMichigan recruiting dinner and started crying/ranting about how she never gets to go home.

Huh? What makes you say this over JD or Morgan Lewis, who have/had represented him during his time as president?

Aside from that, do you have sense for the seniority of the associate? It's also concerning considering usually recruiting events are staffed by individuals who are particularly rosy about their firm. I was aware PW worked hard, but never going home? Also, why attend a recruiting event out of town if you want to spend more time at home...

I suppose this in particular threw me because I've heard people at PW generally like their work even though it's long hours. I'm considering PW, so this is of particular relevance I suppose.


The above story probably happens at any large law firm like PW. Even if it doesn't happen at a recruiting event, I can guarantee the work affects people in this way at every firm. Others aren't as affected by the difficulties, but this is a possibility at every large law firm.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:08 pm

The difference is PW is still a v-20 so well respected, and looking to bring associates into to work them to death.

Dechert is struggling to the point that it's summer class is probably more about not sounding alarm bells to clients than a good faith effort to train busy and productive associates. I doubt even the partners would honestly say it's a good decision. Their pitch is basically choose us because we're big law, but you'd be much better served going to a small law firm or really any non-dying practice or even another struggling firm that has integrity. Don't be tempted by the starting salary.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yea, I'm a junior at PW and it really isn't that bad. I'm on pace for 2000ish this year and that is roughly average. So can be long hours but not miserable.

Also, I have zero concerns about the firm's financial health, which is nice and in some ways the flip side of being busy.

I think OP may just be confused especially w the trump comment. We have a reputation as a pretty liberal firm, firm leadership has criticized trump, and we have been doing a ton of pro bono work fighting the administration, ESP wrt immigration work.


Not to derail this thread further but are you in lit or corp? Because the 10-10 days I heard about in lit seem like they'd yield well north of 2000 billables...



Np. I'm in lit. I typically am in office like ten to eight ish. 12 hour days aren't uncommon but they aren't daily either.

I don't see the business formal thing though. Some people choose to wear suits, but I only wear a suit when meeting with a client or co counsel so like once a month maybe. I had a slow month or two this year though.

I don't love this job, but all of my complaints are due to industry not the firm. I may have drank the kool aid but there isn't another big NYC firm I'd rather do lit at. I've been here a year and have never been yelled at by a partner or felt disrespected in any way. Wouldn't want to roll the dice again.

Also agree that PW has many of the same problems ias its peer firms, which is kind of unavoidable, but they certainly aren't in the category this thread is for and are not even close.

As to face time you are kind of expected to be around from 10ish to 6ish Monday through Friday, but past that they are flexible and you can work from home on occasion. There are some nights you can't leave bc something comes up that is urgent but people regularly make dinner plans or go to the gym or whatever and it's fine

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Np. I'm in lit. I typically am in office like ten to eight ish. 12 hour days aren't uncommon but they aren't daily either.

I don't see the business formal thing though. Some people choose to wear suits, but I only wear a suit when meeting with a client or co counsel so like once a month maybe. I had a slow month or two this year though.

I don't love this job, but all of my complaints are due to industry not the firm. I may have drank the kool aid but there isn't another big NYC firm I'd rather do lit at. I've been here a year and have never been yelled at by a partner or felt disrespected in any way. Wouldn't want to roll the dice again.

Also agree that PW has many of the same problems ias its peer firms, which is kind of unavoidable, but they certainly aren't in the category this thread is for and are not even close.

As to face time you are kind of expected to be around from 10ish to 6ish Monday through Friday, but past that they are flexible and you can work from home on occasion. There are some nights you can't leave bc something comes up that is urgent but people regularly make dinner plans or go to the gym or whatever and it's fine


Thanks! Appreciate all of the info. :)

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Trump's favorite (Paul Weiss). An associate broke down two years ago at a UMichigan recruiting dinner and started crying/ranting about how she never gets to go home.

Huh? What makes you say this over JD or Morgan Lewis, who have/had represented him during his time as president?

Aside from that, do you have sense for the seniority of the associate? It's also concerning considering usually recruiting events are staffed by individuals who are particularly rosy about their firm. I was aware PW worked hard, but never going home? Also, why attend a recruiting event out of town if you want to spend more time at home...

I suppose this in particular threw me because I've heard people at PW generally like their work even though it's long hours. I'm considering PW, so this is of particular relevance I suppose.


same anon as above. it was a second or third year, I think. the Trump part is a joke, since he keeps appointing people from PW to DOJ positions. the associate breaking down is not.

a good friend of mine works at PW atm and he constantly complains about the hours and the partner supervising him (apparently this guy has a bad temper). then again, there are probably reasonable partners too, as the current junior pointed out. i wouldn't know. i didn't like the facetime requirement when i interview there, so took an offer at another v15. i see my wife a lot more than my friend sees, well, anyone outside the firm

edit: also know someone who turned down JD for a much lower ranked firm. black box and the constant suit and tie are a little ridiculous

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:12 pm

I summered at PW and didn't go back. I'd say I had pretty rosy colored view of PW but in retrospect, from where I am now, I can say it is in some ways a kinda lousy place to work.

Lit and corp are diff but I wouldn't want to be in either really. Lit may have better partners but it's also in some ways a factory and if you can land in a bad place by luck of the draw. I met 3rd year associates that got on big cases and barely did any other work (i.e. just doc reviewed one case for years). I also would say some of the lit people had a real dorky but thought they were super cool vibe. The lit partners too for that matter. That was better than some of the shark attitudes in corporate but still not really my cup of tea either way. There are some real bad personalities in corp. Some okay ones but some bad ones too. You have to be careful with who you work with there.

Re the formality, totally a thing. They say they're business casual but you get glared at by random old white dudes in the elevator from time to time if you dress in true business casual regularly. I was often the only one in a room not in a full suit. Which I thought was bullshit for a biz cas firm.

I think they work just as much as other, similar shops on the whole but I also think certain groups expect their teams to work just as much as humanly possible (i.e. inhumane levels). I don't think a list "jumps the shark" if it includes PW at all. I see a lot of turnover and lateralling to less "desirable" firms relatively junior from my LinkedIn connections who went there. But NYC V15ish is pretty bad overall.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:23 pm

PW is highly leveraged and there's a lot of turnover. But my buddy works there and enjoys it so who knows.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Vincent Adultman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:30 pm

All of these comments apply to EVERY BIG FIRM. Asshole partners are gonna turn up their noses at something, be it business casual or whatever. EVERY big firm has practice groups that work imhumane hours. EVERY big firm has people who seem to enjoy it (and many actually do).

What is the point of this thread?

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:38 pm

Martin Brody wrote:All of these comments apply to EVERY BIG FIRM. Asshole partners are gonna turn up their noses at something, be it business casual or whatever. EVERY big firm has practice groups that work imhumane hours. EVERY big firm has people who seem to enjoy it (and many actually do).

What is the point of this thread?


Yea that is what most of us have been trying to say: PW has its issues, and may even arguably be worse on some metrics than some of its "peer" firms, but all in all PW isn't beyond the pale and is NOT exceptionally bad. Not like the other firms mentioned here, which are financially unsound (e.g., Dechert) or otherwise (e.g., PH) substantially worse than the "average" BigLaw firm.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby FSK » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:39 pm

Martin Brody wrote:All of these comments apply to EVERY BIG FIRM. Asshole partners are gonna turn up their noses at something, be it business casual or whatever. EVERY big firm has practice groups that work imhumane hours. EVERY big firm has people who seem to enjoy it (and many actually do).

What is the point of this thread?


FSK wrote:all of them

/thread
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at PW and didn't go back. I'd say I had pretty rosy colored view of PW but in retrospect, from where I am now, I can say it is in some ways a kinda lousy place to work.

Lit and corp are diff but I wouldn't want to be in either really. Lit may have better partners but it's also in some ways a factory and if you can land in a bad place by luck of the draw. I met 3rd year associates that got on big cases and barely did any other work (i.e. just doc reviewed one case for years). I also would say some of the lit people had a real dorky but thought they were super cool vibe. The lit partners too for that matter. That was better than some of the shark attitudes in corporate but still not really my cup of tea either way. There are some real bad personalities in corp. Some okay ones but some bad ones too. You have to be careful with who you work with there.

Re the formality, totally a thing. They say they're business casual but you get glared at by random old white dudes in the elevator from time to time if you dress in true business casual regularly. I was often the only one in a room not in a full suit. Which I thought was bullshit for a biz cas firm.

I think they work just as much as other, similar shops on the whole but I also think certain groups expect their teams to work just as much as humanly possible (i.e. inhumane levels). I don't think a list "jumps the shark" if it includes PW at all. I see a lot of turnover and lateralling to less "desirable" firms relatively junior from my LinkedIn connections who went there. But NYC V15ish is pretty bad overall.

I'm the "jump the shark" anon who summered there. I may or may not go back there after clerking. I never had any rose-colored view from the start. It was pretty much as I expected it would be: a huge, highly leveraged biglaw office with a ton of different people, which means everyone has a different experience based on who they work with and how lucky they get with assignments. If you think that all the NYC offices of the V15 qualify as "firms to stay away from," then I guess that makes sense in an "NYC biglaw sucks" kind of way. I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. But, as the last few posts made clear, PW isn't really any worse than the rest of them, and it doesn't belong in the same category as the rest of the firms being discussed in this thread, which seems to be more about risk of layoffs and pervasively toxic culture.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I summered at PW and didn't go back. I'd say I had pretty rosy colored view of PW but in retrospect, from where I am now, I can say it is in some ways a kinda lousy place to work.

Lit and corp are diff but I wouldn't want to be in either really. Lit may have better partners but it's also in some ways a factory and if you can land in a bad place by luck of the draw. I met 3rd year associates that got on big cases and barely did any other work (i.e. just doc reviewed one case for years). I also would say some of the lit people had a real dorky but thought they were super cool vibe. The lit partners too for that matter. That was better than some of the shark attitudes in corporate but still not really my cup of tea either way. There are some real bad personalities in corp. Some okay ones but some bad ones too. You have to be careful with who you work with there.

Re the formality, totally a thing. They say they're business casual but you get glared at by random old white dudes in the elevator from time to time if you dress in true business casual regularly. I was often the only one in a room not in a full suit. Which I thought was bullshit for a biz cas firm.

I think they work just as much as other, similar shops on the whole but I also think certain groups expect their teams to work just as much as humanly possible (i.e. inhumane levels). I don't think a list "jumps the shark" if it includes PW at all. I see a lot of turnover and lateralling to less "desirable" firms relatively junior from my LinkedIn connections who went there. But NYC V15ish is pretty bad overall.

I'm the "jump the shark" anon who summered there. I may or may not go back there after clerking. I never had any rose-colored view from the start. It was pretty much as I expected it would be: a huge, highly leveraged biglaw office with a ton of different people, which means everyone has a different experience based on who they work with and how lucky they get with assignments. If you think that all the NYC offices of the V15 qualify as "firms to stay away from," then I guess that makes sense in an "NYC biglaw sucks" kind of way. I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. But, as the last few posts made clear, PW isn't really any worse than the rest of them, and it doesn't belong in the same category as the rest of the firms being discussed in this thread, which seems to be more about risk of layoffs and pervasively toxic culture.


Listen, you can glibly say "all biglaw firms are bad." Or whatever. Or we can talk about specific firms and the aspects that make them bad. If you don't want to do that then you can feel free to ignore. NYC V15 sucks. Some suck more than others. My impression is that PW is such a place. Maybe I should have been more clear. I wasn't saying PW has some problems but so does every place. I was saying PW has some problems and maybe other places do. People are reading it that that all places do. They do not all have these problems or culture. A staffing coordinator told my mentor at PW he needed to kick up his hours after a few 215 hour months. A staffing coordinator. That's institutional bullshit not all firms have.

You don't have to care but then, what is the actual purpose of this thread. Even if all this thread does is confirm that NYC V15s suck, I don't know that that's such a waste. A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that it's a good idea to suck it up and work at those places. I get the impression that some people are just being defensive here.

But I'm at a great place billing just enough hours to make bonuses, getting paid Cravath scale and getting great reviews. People are going in-house so fast here the firm is getting decimated. We even have third years going to great gigs. And a lot of these gigs pay about as much as biglaw. So in my experience not all big law sucks.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby rpupkin » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:But I'm at a great place billing just enough hours to make bonuses, getting paid Cravath scale and getting great reviews. People are going in-house so fast here the firm is getting decimated. We even have third years going to great gigs. And a lot of these gigs pay about as much as biglaw. So in my experience not all big law sucks.

You can get lucky at any big law firm. If the group you're in overhires and/or if business is slow, your lifestyle will be pretty good—provided, of course, that things don't get so slow that the firm starts laying off junior associates.

Much of this is cyclical. My hours have bounced around between 1800 and 2500, and the "office culture" has remained the same the entire time.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:37 pm

The hours anecdote surprises me. I haven't heard of that happening to anyone. It hasn't happened to me and I have only had like two months just barely over 200 and firm leadership has said they are fine with 2000ish. Of course some people work significantly more than that. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but based on my experience, it would surprise me. And assuming lit it doesn't match the person who they would have been talking about's personality at all.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The hours anecdote surprises me. I haven't heard of that happening to anyone. It hasn't happened to me and I have only had like two months just barely over 200 and firm leadership has said they are fine with 2000ish. Of course some people work significantly more than that. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but based on my experience, it would surprise me. And assuming lit it doesn't match the person who they would have been talking about's personality at all.


Not lit, corporate. And it was a pretty busy time at the firm. He could have been exaggerating his hours, idk. But he went from firm cheerleader to rage quitting and just bad mouthing the firm incessantly over the course of my summer. I have a bit more exposure to the corporate side than the lit side.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I summered at PW and didn't go back. I'd say I had pretty rosy colored view of PW but in retrospect, from where I am now, I can say it is in some ways a kinda lousy place to work.

Lit and corp are diff but I wouldn't want to be in either really. Lit may have better partners but it's also in some ways a factory and if you can land in a bad place by luck of the draw. I met 3rd year associates that got on big cases and barely did any other work (i.e. just doc reviewed one case for years). I also would say some of the lit people had a real dorky but thought they were super cool vibe. The lit partners too for that matter. That was better than some of the shark attitudes in corporate but still not really my cup of tea either way. There are some real bad personalities in corp. Some okay ones but some bad ones too. You have to be careful with who you work with there.

Re the formality, totally a thing. They say they're business casual but you get glared at by random old white dudes in the elevator from time to time if you dress in true business casual regularly. I was often the only one in a room not in a full suit. Which I thought was bullshit for a biz cas firm.

I think they work just as much as other, similar shops on the whole but I also think certain groups expect their teams to work just as much as humanly possible (i.e. inhumane levels). I don't think a list "jumps the shark" if it includes PW at all. I see a lot of turnover and lateralling to less "desirable" firms relatively junior from my LinkedIn connections who went there. But NYC V15ish is pretty bad overall.

I'm the "jump the shark" anon who summered there. I may or may not go back there after clerking. I never had any rose-colored view from the start. It was pretty much as I expected it would be: a huge, highly leveraged biglaw office with a ton of different people, which means everyone has a different experience based on who they work with and how lucky they get with assignments. If you think that all the NYC offices of the V15 qualify as "firms to stay away from," then I guess that makes sense in an "NYC biglaw sucks" kind of way. I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. But, as the last few posts made clear, PW isn't really any worse than the rest of them, and it doesn't belong in the same category as the rest of the firms being discussed in this thread, which seems to be more about risk of layoffs and pervasively toxic culture.


(Have you worked at another firm before? Not trying to insinuate anything; just curious since you seem to like you firm a great deal)

As for firms, each level has its own issues.

    V1-20's have lucrative clients and cases, so their associates are busy. The good firms will let you do work at home, and dress business casual/ casual. The not-so-great ones will force you to do the work in the office and on weekends. The really bad ones have partners who yell at you for not doing the above fast enough.

    V21-50's that aren't few-offices elite boutiques have okay clients, but their work tends to dry up faster and there's a bigger chance of layoffs. The good firms will keep a steady flow of work and not eat up their associates' lives. The not-so-great ones will try to gun (and fail to gun) for higher rankings and clients out of their range by eating up their associates' lives. The really bad ones go bankrupt and merge/dissolve.

    V50-100's that aren't new struggle for clients, though they have some partners willing to float the firm. (The newer ones are still rising through the ranks) The good firms don't overhire, pay salaries they can afford and give plenty of vacation time to promote their "work-life balance." The mediocre ones stick you with nothing but marketing and the occasional doc review. The really bad ones that aren't dead are usually midlaw firms glad to be in the vault rankings and got there with high hours and low paychecks for their associates.



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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The hours anecdote surprises me. I haven't heard of that happening to anyone. It hasn't happened to me and I have only had like two months just barely over 200 and firm leadership has said they are fine with 2000ish. Of course some people work significantly more than that. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but based on my experience, it would surprise me. And assuming lit it doesn't match the person who they would have been talking about's personality at all.


Not lit, corporate. And it was a pretty busy time at the firm. He could have been exaggerating his hours, idk. But he went from firm cheerleader to rage quitting and just bad mouthing the firm incessantly over the course of my summer. I have a bit more exposure to the corporate side than the lit side.


Yea, I don't really know what goes on with the corporate people tbh.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I summered at PW and didn't go back. I'd say I had pretty rosy colored view of PW but in retrospect, from where I am now, I can say it is in some ways a kinda lousy place to work.

Lit and corp are diff but I wouldn't want to be in either really. Lit may have better partners but it's also in some ways a factory and if you can land in a bad place by luck of the draw. I met 3rd year associates that got on big cases and barely did any other work (i.e. just doc reviewed one case for years). I also would say some of the lit people had a real dorky but thought they were super cool vibe. The lit partners too for that matter. That was better than some of the shark attitudes in corporate but still not really my cup of tea either way. There are some real bad personalities in corp. Some okay ones but some bad ones too. You have to be careful with who you work with there.

Re the formality, totally a thing. They say they're business casual but you get glared at by random old white dudes in the elevator from time to time if you dress in true business casual regularly. I was often the only one in a room not in a full suit. Which I thought was bullshit for a biz cas firm.

I think they work just as much as other, similar shops on the whole but I also think certain groups expect their teams to work just as much as humanly possible (i.e. inhumane levels). I don't think a list "jumps the shark" if it includes PW at all. I see a lot of turnover and lateralling to less "desirable" firms relatively junior from my LinkedIn connections who went there. But NYC V15ish is pretty bad overall.

I'm the "jump the shark" anon who summered there. I may or may not go back there after clerking. I never had any rose-colored view from the start. It was pretty much as I expected it would be: a huge, highly leveraged biglaw office with a ton of different people, which means everyone has a different experience based on who they work with and how lucky they get with assignments. If you think that all the NYC offices of the V15 qualify as "firms to stay away from," then I guess that makes sense in an "NYC biglaw sucks" kind of way. I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. But, as the last few posts made clear, PW isn't really any worse than the rest of them, and it doesn't belong in the same category as the rest of the firms being discussed in this thread, which seems to be more about risk of layoffs and pervasively toxic culture.


Listen, you can glibly say "all biglaw firms are bad." Or whatever. Or we can talk about specific firms and the aspects that make them bad. If you don't want to do that then you can feel free to ignore. NYC V15 sucks. Some suck more than others. My impression is that PW is such a place. Maybe I should have been more clear. I wasn't saying PW has some problems but so does every place. I was saying PW has some problems and maybe other places do. People are reading it that that all places do. They do not all have these problems or culture. A staffing coordinator told my mentor at PW he needed to kick up his hours after a few 215 hour months. A staffing coordinator. That's institutional bullshit not all firms have.

You don't have to care but then, what is the actual purpose of this thread. Even if all this thread does is confirm that NYC V15s suck, I don't know that that's such a waste. A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that it's a good idea to suck it up and work at those places. I get the impression that some people are just being defensive here.

But I'm at a great place billing just enough hours to make bonuses, getting paid Cravath scale and getting great reviews. People are going in-house so fast here the firm is getting decimated. We even have third years going to great gigs. And a lot of these gigs pay about as much as biglaw. So in my experience not all big law sucks.

Not being defensive at all. If you think PW is exceptionally more toxic than other firms and should be avoided, then that's fine. I'd love to hear the reasons, such as this "institutional bullshit," since I'm considering whether to go back. But originally, all you said was that "it's a lousy place to work" and gave some examples that everyone else pointed out were typical of biglaw. IMO, that's not what the thread is about. In fact, the OP only asked about firms on "shaky financial ground."

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SmokeytheBear

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby SmokeytheBear » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
    V1-20's have lucrative clients and cases, so their associates are busy. The good firms will let you do work at home, and dress business casual/ casual. The not-so-great ones will force you to do the work in the office and on weekends. The really bad ones have partners who yell at you for not doing the above fast enough.

    V21-50's that aren't few-offices elite boutiques have okay clients, but their work tends to dry up faster and there's a bigger chance of layoffs. The good firms will keep a steady flow of work and not eat up their associates' lives. The not-so-great ones will try to gun (and fail to gun) for higher rankings and clients out of their range by eating up their associates' lives. The really bad ones go bankrupt and merge/dissolve.

    V50-100's that aren't new struggle for clients, though they have some partners willing to float the firm. (The newer ones are still rising through the ranks) The good firms don't overhire, pay salaries they can afford and give plenty of vacation time to promote their "work-life balance." The mediocre ones stick you with nothing but marketing and the occasional doc review. The really bad ones that aren't dead are usually midlaw firms glad to be in the vault rankings and got there with high hours and low paychecks for their associates.




This just isnt right at all.You can maybe, maybe make such broad generalizations based on AmLaw ranking, but not Vault ranking. Vault ranking has little to do with the metrics you listed.
Last edited by SmokeytheBear on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vincent Adultman

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Vincent Adultman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:51 pm

I wouldn't be shocked if many of these anons don't work in biglaw.

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Re: Law Firms to Stay Away From

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the "jump the shark" anon who summered there. I may or may not go back there after clerking. I never had any rose-colored view from the start. It was pretty much as I expected it would be: a huge, highly leveraged biglaw office with a ton of different people, which means everyone has a different experience based on who they work with and how lucky they get with assignments. If you think that all the NYC offices of the V15 qualify as "firms to stay away from," then I guess that makes sense in an "NYC biglaw sucks" kind of way. I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. But, as the last few posts made clear, PW isn't really any worse than the rest of them, and it doesn't belong in the same category as the rest of the firms being discussed in this thread, which seems to be more about risk of layoffs and pervasively toxic culture.


(Have you worked at another firm before? Not trying to insinuate anything; just curious since you seem to like you firm a great deal)

No, I haven't, but I have friends who work in other firms, so I have opinions based on their experiences. And it's funny that I'm apparently coming across as someone who likes his firm a great deal, considering I was probably one of the least enthusiastic people in the summer class. I'm just pointing out that even if PW sucks, I don't see how it belongs in the same category as the other firms mentioned in this thread.



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