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flashdril

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby flashdril » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:02 pm

There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.

This sounds sort of defensive. No one wants anyone to be miserable, just to know the possible consequences of their actions.

Also, nothing about the above needed to be anon.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.



Previous anon.
Are you the OP? Because I can guarantee you if you are, the fastest way to being "miserable" is to be blackballed by your firm before you even start. I'm sure that sounds hyperbolic, but it literally happened in my summer associate group because a summer promised to start in lit was forced to start in M&A (and complained about it).

Look, we're trying to help you here. If you're really passionate about this practice group, find a tactful way to bring it up with HR while getting ready for 3L OCI

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:12 pm

flashdril wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.


OP here. This was my gut reaction as well when people said I was displaying "attitude." I know once I start working full-time I will have to devote most of my free time to this firm, cancel plans, no personal life, etc. Is it really "entitled" to feel that, if I have to do that, I at least want to do it for work in a practice area that I find interesting, that the firm promised me, instead of one I did not sign up for?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
flashdril wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.


OP here. This was my gut reaction as well when people said I was displaying "attitude." I know once I start working full-time I will have to devote most of my free time to this firm, cancel plans, no personal life, etc. Is it really "entitled" to feel that, if I have to do that, I at least want to do it for work in a practice area that I find interesting, that the firm promised me, instead of one I did not sign up for?



Previous anon.

I think the "entitled" accusation doesn't come from your belief that you have a right to choose your practice group (you do), but the belief that a partner – let alone the firm – will somehow care about your preferences.

You are absolutely right to try to go into an area that you're passionate about/interested in. But you would be benefitted from trying to minimize the potential backlash you'll get from voicing these opinions.

Why not talk to the senior associate about getting into another practice group? (Although honestly I wouldn't trust a single senior associate at my firm with that info either).

Justtrying2help

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Justtrying2help » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:40 pm

End of summer reviews are like a final test. Firms want you to say that you loved everything about the experience and it would be your life's dream to work there. If you spend that time just complaining about your stay, you'll likely get an offer (a cold offer) that will allow the firm to maintain their 100% offer rate but will leave you scrambling for a job. Do not be silly. Be cordial and bite your tongue. Keep you thoughts to yourself. If you get an offer from a better firm in 3L OCI, take it. In the likely chance you don't get a 3L offer, you'll have to work at this firm for a few years to get your feet wet. Remember, you have no full time work experience being a lawyer. That means you don't know shit about what firms do in order to meet financial goals and how they use information from the summer internships to judge effort and work quality. I worked at an office where they put all interns in a practice area fairly similar to the one they desired but not exactly just to see if the intern would adapt or complain. This is a part of the test. Don't fail it on the end of summer review.

Tldr: if you don't already have leverage, the last thing you need to do is complain. If you decide to complain, it's very likely you won't be working there next year or any firm. A firm job is likely better than unemployment, unless this firm is Dechert.
Last edited by Justtrying2help on Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jd20132013

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby jd20132013 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:43 pm

right, you need to disabuse yourself, op, of the thought that you as an individual matter to these folks.

The question isn't whether your concerns are valid the question is whether you're risking hurting your money

If you have no loans though, go wild I guess.

flashdril

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby flashdril » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:45 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.

This sounds sort of defensive. No one wants anyone to be miserable, just to know the possible consequences of their actions.

Also, nothing about the above needed to be anon.

fair enough, I don't really pay attention to which reply I click.

Obviously not the OP but genuinely nothing about OP's post read as entitled to me and I've seen this exact same thing happen literally dozens of times in the ~two weeks(ish?) I've been reading TLS.

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elendinel

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby elendinel » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:50 pm

flashdril wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.


There's a stark difference between wanting to make an emotionally taxing position more tolerable, and wanting a position to 100% comport with what you want to do.

If OP were complaining because the partners had him/her in the office 12 hours day on a useless sample complaint, that'd be one thing. If OP had gotten calls on the weekend about the status of this complaint and got screamed at for small typos here and there, that'd be one thing. If the partner made OP miss the funeral of a loved one for this project, that'd be one thing. These are things that would be borderline, if not outright, abusive to an intern. These are things no intern should expect to deal with, nor have to.

OP's not complaining about a taxing or emotionally stressful SA, though. OP is complaining about not being able to do exactly what (s)he wanted to do, and about having to do a thing (s)he felt was pointless. An intern doesn't deserve to demand specific kinds of work; an intern deserves to get work that will help them develop legal skills, but if a firm doesn't have specific kinds of work handy by the time the intern comes in, the firm isn't (and shouldn't be) under any obligation to magically come up with more of that kind of work just to make an intern happy for a few weeks. Similarly, an intern doesn't get to demand only projects the intern feels are worth their time; an intern generally has zero useful skills that would justify believing that a project is beneath them, much less any that would justify wanting actually meaningful work. An internship is about (1) learning legal skills (2) learning about the firm (3) allowing the firm to learn about you and your skills; as long as all those criteria were met, your internship hasn't failed and has nothing to apologize to you for.

For sure, you can still feel like the experience was s**t or not helpful for your goals, and take that into account when you decide whether or not to accept an offer, but your firm doesn't necessarily "owe" you the specific experience you wanted. OP wouldn't be crazy to ask at the final review whether or not OP would be able to start in their preferred group as an associate if they got an offer, but OP doesn't exactly get the right to criticize the firm for not doing things exactly the way OP wanted them done (and certainly can't expect anything good to come of it).

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby flashdril » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:56 pm

elendinel wrote:
flashdril wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.


There's a stark difference between wanting to make an emotionally taxing position more tolerable, and wanting a position to 100% comport with what you want to do.

If OP were complaining because the partners had him/her in the office 12 hours day on a useless sample complaint, that'd be one thing. If OP had gotten calls on the weekend about the status of this complaint and got screamed at for small typos here and there, that'd be one thing. If the partner made OP miss the funeral of a loved one for this project, that'd be one thing. These are things that would be borderline, if not outright, abusive to an intern. These are things no intern should expect to deal with, nor have to.

OP's not complaining about a taxing or emotionally stressful SA, though. OP is complaining about not being able to do exactly what (s)he wanted to do, and about having to do a thing (s)he felt was pointless. An intern doesn't deserve to demand specific kinds of work; an intern deserves to get work that will help them develop legal skills, but if a firm doesn't have specific kinds of work handy by the time the intern comes in, the firm isn't (and shouldn't be) under any obligation to magically come up with more of that kind of work just to make an intern happy for a few weeks. Similarly, an intern doesn't get to demand only projects the intern feels are worth their time; an intern generally has zero useful skills that would justify believing that a project is beneath them, much less any that would justify wanting actually meaningful work. An internship is about (1) learning legal skills (2) learning about the firm (3) allowing the firm to learn about you and your skills; as long as all those criteria were met, your internship hasn't failed and has nothing to apologize to you for.

For sure, you can still feel like the experience was s**t or not helpful for your goals, and take that into account when you decide whether or not to accept an offer, but your firm doesn't necessarily "owe" you the specific experience you wanted. OP wouldn't be crazy to ask at the final review whether or not OP would be able to start in their preferred group as an associate if they got an offer, but OP doesn't exactly get the right to criticize the firm for not doing things exactly the way OP wanted them done (and certainly can't expect anything good to come of it).


Let's just say my critique comes from way farther to the left than what you're addressing.

EDIT: see below
Last edited by flashdril on Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pokemon

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Pokemon » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:03 pm

Op needs to stop behaving like a special snowflake and just do 3l lolci if he cannot stand group. Like for gods sake, you are not hired because of your brain or legal expertise. You are hired to spend a TON of hours doing work other people would find mundane, Boring or lacking in utility. You complainign about such things in relation to a group is probably a red flag to them. Like besides not being a psycho or iq of 50, the only other way to separate juniors and summers is by how much eagerness they show, and by you bringing those complaints do not show a lot.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:29 pm

flashdril wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.

This sounds sort of defensive. No one wants anyone to be miserable, just to know the possible consequences of their actions.

Also, nothing about the above needed to be anon.

fair enough, I don't really pay attention to which reply I click.

Obviously not the OP but genuinely nothing about OP's post read as entitled to me and I've seen this exact same thing happen literally dozens of times in the ~two weeks(ish?) I've been reading TLS.

Really? Not even the notion that a summer associate would use an end of summer review to complain that a partner's approach to a case was wasting their time? Maybe entitled isn't the precise word, but at a minimum it's a case of wildly misapprehending your place in the hierarchy.

Maybe I sound judgmental, but from my perspective OP needs to understand that this isn't just a mildly inadvisable idea, it's a screaming red flag.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:46 pm

elendinel wrote:
flashdril wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.


There's a stark difference between wanting to make an emotionally taxing position more tolerable, and wanting a position to 100% comport with what you want to do.

If OP were complaining because the partners had him/her in the office 12 hours day on a useless sample complaint, that'd be one thing. If OP had gotten calls on the weekend about the status of this complaint and got screamed at for small typos here and there, that'd be one thing. If the partner made OP miss the funeral of a loved one for this project, that'd be one thing. These are things that would be borderline, if not outright, abusive to an intern. These are things no intern should expect to deal with, nor have to.


Both of these things have happened. For multiple days a week over the course of several weeks I had to stay late to work on the sample complaint (past 10pm and come in on weekends). And a few days ago, not the partner, but the overworked junior associate I mentioned in the first post, screamed at me because I missed transferring one fact from the complaint to the appendix to the complaint. The junior associate also said she was tired of "accommodating my two-hour summer lunches," even though these were all mandatory for me to attend.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:49 pm

If a junior actually screamed at a summer associate, that's worth bringing up in your end of summer review (tactfully). Any bad/offensive behavior towards/around a SA is a cardinal sin at most firm.

The "I'm tired of accommodating your summer lunches" line would warrant at least an uncomfortable berating in a partner's office.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Justtrying2help wrote:End of summer reviews are like a final test. Firms want you to say that you loved everything about the experience and it would be your life's dream to work there. If you spend that time just complaining about your stay, you'll likely get an offer (a cold offer) that will allow the firm to maintain their 100% offer rate but will leave you scrambling for a job. Do not be silly. Be cordial and bite your tongue. Keep you thoughts to yourself. If you get an offer from a better firm in 3L OCI, take it. In the likely chance you don't get a 3L offer, you'll have to work at this firm for a few years to get your feet wet. Remember, you have no full time work experience being a lawyer. That means you don't know shit about what firms do in order to meet financial goals and how they use information from the summer internships to judge effort and work quality. I worked at an office where they put all interns in a practice area fairly similar to the one they desired but not exactly just to see if the intern would adapt or complain. This is a part of the test. Don't fail it on the end of summer review.

Tldr: if you don't already have leverage, the last thing you need to do is complain. If you decide to complain, it's very likely you won't be working there next year or any firm. A firm job is likely better than unemployment, unless this firm is Dechert.


Thanks, but regarding leverage, I asked around. Two summers ago one SA said that she would not accept the firm's offer unless she could work remotely for the first year, for personal reasons (these did not involve a sick loved one or anything like that). The firm granted the request.

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cfcm

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby cfcm » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:59 pm

In rough terms, how big a firm is this? Some things about this sound a little odd.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:04 pm

cfcm wrote:In rough terms, how big a firm is this? Some things about this sound a little odd.


V100, under 75 attorneys, satellite office.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Nebby » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:12 pm

This all sounds like a good way to get no-offered. Begrudgingly smile, get your offer, and then use it to get an offer elsewhere.

On a slightly unrelated note, how in the hell can you spend a whole summer just working on a sample complaint. I know it's possible for incredibly complex stuff, but I don't know how a summer would get staffed on something that complex.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Nebby » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Justtrying2help wrote:End of summer reviews are like a final test. Firms want you to say that you loved everything about the experience and it would be your life's dream to work there. If you spend that time just complaining about your stay, you'll likely get an offer (a cold offer) that will allow the firm to maintain their 100% offer rate but will leave you scrambling for a job. Do not be silly. Be cordial and bite your tongue. Keep you thoughts to yourself. If you get an offer from a better firm in 3L OCI, take it. In the likely chance you don't get a 3L offer, you'll have to work at this firm for a few years to get your feet wet. Remember, you have no full time work experience being a lawyer. That means you don't know shit about what firms do in order to meet financial goals and how they use information from the summer internships to judge effort and work quality. I worked at an office where they put all interns in a practice area fairly similar to the one they desired but not exactly just to see if the intern would adapt or complain. This is a part of the test. Don't fail it on the end of summer review.

Tldr: if you don't already have leverage, the last thing you need to do is complain. If you decide to complain, it's very likely you won't be working there next year or any firm. A firm job is likely better than unemployment, unless this firm is Dechert.


Thanks, but regarding leverage, I asked around. Two summers ago one SA said that she would not accept the firm's offer unless she could work remotely for the first year, for personal reasons (these did not involve a sick loved one or anything like that). The firm granted the request.

She probably didn't start that conversation off by berating a partner and associate

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:38 pm

Nebby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Justtrying2help wrote:End of summer reviews are like a final test. Firms want you to say that you loved everything about the experience and it would be your life's dream to work there. If you spend that time just complaining about your stay, you'll likely get an offer (a cold offer) that will allow the firm to maintain their 100% offer rate but will leave you scrambling for a job. Do not be silly. Be cordial and bite your tongue. Keep you thoughts to yourself. If you get an offer from a better firm in 3L OCI, take it. In the likely chance you don't get a 3L offer, you'll have to work at this firm for a few years to get your feet wet. Remember, you have no full time work experience being a lawyer. That means you don't know shit about what firms do in order to meet financial goals and how they use information from the summer internships to judge effort and work quality. I worked at an office where they put all interns in a practice area fairly similar to the one they desired but not exactly just to see if the intern would adapt or complain. This is a part of the test. Don't fail it on the end of summer review.

Tldr: if you don't already have leverage, the last thing you need to do is complain. If you decide to complain, it's very likely you won't be working there next year or any firm. A firm job is likely better than unemployment, unless this firm is Dechert.


Thanks, but regarding leverage, I asked around. Two summers ago one SA said that she would not accept the firm's offer unless she could work remotely for the first year, for personal reasons (these did not involve a sick loved one or anything like that). The firm granted the request.

She probably didn't start that conversation off by berating a partner and associate

Nah I'm sure she walked in and said this firm is a joke, your partners don't know how to do their jobs, and I'll only deign to return here if I can work remotely. Alpha move.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby RaceJudicata » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:04 pm

Lol I'd love to see you try and get the Senior associate in your corner. This senior associate will retreat in record pace and suddenly have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about. Be smart, don't throw them under the bus.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby smile0751 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:10 pm

OP have you ever worked before in a professional environment? This is a classic rookie mistake. I was you at my first job (thankfully pre-law school$, and I learned speaking up only hurts the person who does so. You are 100% better off smiling and saying nothing.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby cron1834 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:13 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
flashdril wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.

This sounds sort of defensive. No one wants anyone to be miserable, just to know the possible consequences of their actions.

Also, nothing about the above needed to be anon.

fair enough, I don't really pay attention to which reply I click.

Obviously not the OP but genuinely nothing about OP's post read as entitled to me and I've seen this exact same thing happen literally dozens of times in the ~two weeks(ish?) I've been reading TLS.

Really? Not even the notion that a summer associate would use an end of summer review to complain that a partner's approach to a case was wasting their time? Maybe entitled isn't the precise word, but at a minimum it's a case of wildly misapprehending your place in the hierarchy.

Maybe I sound judgmental, but from my perspective OP needs to understand that this isn't just a mildly inadvisable idea, it's a screaming red flag.

Plus OP literally thought firms cared deeply about their yield rate and therefore summers held some of the cards. This is 100% the opposite of actual reality.

Look, if you don't want to stay at the firm bc they promised you one practice group and gave you another, that's perfectly reasonable. But nodding your head and smiling while you send resumes elsewhere is the solution, not telling partners that they don't know how to run their business based on your ten whole weeks of experience. Come on man, you have to appreciate that difference and why you're getting flack.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:07 pm

Thread is tl;dr but who the fuck do you think you are that it would be a good idea to be honest in a work setting.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby elendinel » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
elendinel wrote:
flashdril wrote:There should just be a button on this forum where people can click and it just replies to threads calling OPs "entitled." It would save y'all hundreds of thousands of keystrokes per year.

Like there have been so many discussions about mental health and drug and alcohol abuse by lawyers and if someone here indicates any desire to be anything less than miserable everyone piles on to call them entitled.


There's a stark difference between wanting to make an emotionally taxing position more tolerable, and wanting a position to 100% comport with what you want to do.

If OP were complaining because the partners had him/her in the office 12 hours day on a useless sample complaint, that'd be one thing. If OP had gotten calls on the weekend about the status of this complaint and got screamed at for small typos here and there, that'd be one thing. If the partner made OP miss the funeral of a loved one for this project, that'd be one thing. These are things that would be borderline, if not outright, abusive to an intern. These are things no intern should expect to deal with, nor have to.


Both of these things have happened. For multiple days a week over the course of several weeks I had to stay late to work on the sample complaint (past 10pm and come in on weekends). And a few days ago, not the partner, but the overworked junior associate I mentioned in the first post, screamed at me because I missed transferring one fact from the complaint to the appendix to the complaint. The junior associate also said she was tired of "accommodating my two-hour summer lunches," even though these were all mandatory for me to attend.


These are things you can bring up in your review (tactfully, i.e., do not say, "My mentor yelled at me and I found this to be completely unprofessional"). If you were asked to work on weekends despite making good progress on the work you had, that may be something you can tactfully bring up (i.e., do not say, "I thought it was really weird that I had to work so many hours"), but only if you're absolutely positive that the reason was because they were being unreasonable (and not, say, because you were just slow, and therefore needed to spend all that extra time just to do things it'd take most others less time to complete).

You don't complain about the fact that you found the work boring/pointless in your final review. You don't complain that the firm didn't give you the work you were gunning for in your final review. You don't assume you have leverage just because one person two years ago got a sweet deal based on circumstances of which you probably don't have first or secondhand knowledge. Not if you don't want a sour reputation with this firm and others who know people at this firm.



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