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Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:53 pm

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:55 pm

If you feel confident in your ability to get an offer somewhere else (or already have an offer somewhere else), I don't see the harm in being candid.

But if it's working in a practice group "in shambles" vs not working at all, I'd say pick the former and look to lateral asap.

Also, pointless summer assignments is pretty par for the course in biglaw.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:00 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:If you feel confident in your ability to get an offer somewhere else (or already have an offer somewhere else), I don't see the harm in being candid.

But if it's working in a practice group "in shambles" vs not working at all, I'd say pick the former and look to lateral asap.

Also, pointless summer assignments is pretty par for the course in biglaw.


OP here. I was thinking of waiting until after they give me an offer to raise my concerns. Do you think they will revoke their offer after they hear my concerns? Or they'll just say something like, "We will not make any changes. You can walk"? Don't they have some incentive to try to address my concerns, given that it will look bad for them if one summer out of a relatively small summer class (single-digit) decides not to come back?

jd20132013

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby jd20132013 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:20 pm

How will it look bad, exactly ?

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LaLiLuLeLo

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:23 pm

Just shop around to get an offer elsewhere or look to lateral ASAP. Also worth noting that you have very little say in practice group. They'll stick you where they need you.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:30 pm

jd20132013 wrote:How will it look bad, exactly ?


Doesn't NALP publish stats, along with offer rates? Just like schools are obsessed with yield, aren't firms?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby njdevils2626 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
jd20132013 wrote:How will it look bad, exactly ?


Doesn't NALP publish stats, along with offer rates? Just like schools are obsessed with yield, aren't firms?


Yes, but for NALP purposes all that matters is that they've made you an offer - not whether or not you've accepted the offer and actually return in the fall. This is where the whole concept of the "cold offer" comes in

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Pokemon

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Pokemon » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:05 pm

Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.

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trebekismyhero

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby trebekismyhero » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Pokemon wrote:Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:36 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
Pokemon wrote:Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.


What are the negative consequences of being honest? Will the firm revoke the offer?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
Pokemon wrote:Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.


What are the negative consequences of being honest? Will the firm revoke the offer?


No, but someone will remember your attitude if you do go back and its possible it will impact your opportunities at that firm. Its also possible everyone will forget, but its a risk most summers wouldn't take.

I think it's totally fair to ask whether you could get into your desired group if you accepted, but how far you go critically beyond that is less certain

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:44 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
Pokemon wrote:Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.


What are the negative consequences of being honest? Will the firm revoke the offer?


No, but someone will remember your attitude if you do go back and its possible it will impact your opportunities at that firm. Its also possible everyone will forget, but its a risk most summers wouldn't take.

I think it's totally fair to ask whether you could get into your desired group if you accepted, but how far you go critically beyond that is less certain


What "attitude"?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
Pokemon wrote:Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.


What are the negative consequences of being honest? Will the firm revoke the offer?


No, but someone will remember your attitude if you do go back and its possible it will impact your opportunities at that firm. Its also possible everyone will forget, but its a risk most summers wouldn't take.

I think it's totally fair to ask whether you could get into your desired group if you accepted, but how far you go critically beyond that is less certain


What "attitude"?


The attitude where you think you're above a bullshit assignment as a summer and should get to pick where you work and what you do. I'm not saying you're wrong in wanting to get in that practice group, but more senior attorneys might see your complaints as entitlements, especially considering that you're a summer (get paid well despite not being particularly useful).

As others have said, it's worthwhile to inquire about your chances of getting in the practice group and looking to see if you can upgrade during the fall, but I wouldn't air out all your grievances.
Last edited by lavarman84 on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wiseowl

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby wiseowl » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
trebekismyhero wrote:
Pokemon wrote:Do not be honest at all but do 3l oci.


What are the negative consequences of being honest? Will the firm revoke the offer?


No, but someone will remember your attitude if you do go back and its possible it will impact your opportunities at that firm. Its also possible everyone will forget, but its a risk most summers wouldn't take.

I think it's totally fair to ask whether you could get into your desired group if you accepted, but how far you go critically beyond that is less certain


What "attitude"?


If you're the OP, the one in the first post.

lolwat

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby lolwat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:19 pm

You come across as entitled and that simply cannot go well.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:31 pm

There are concerns or constructive criticisms that might be appropriate to raise in your review, but these are not.

Your preferred practice group may not have had work for you to do. That happens sometimes. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do it when you come back as an associate. Nor does it mean they were neglecting you. It's just the way the work flows. If by "raising" this concern you mean simply asking whether the firm will be able to accommodate you in your preferred practice, that's fine, but do not complain about the way your summer went.

Your opinion about a partner's strategic decisions, or whether you "find utility in" the work you've been asked to do, are frankly completely irrelevant and it would concern me if I worked with a summer associate who thought otherwise. You don't know the forest from the trees. You can barely even identify a tree yet.

I would honestly be more worried about your firm thinking you're entitled and a bad fit, rather than using your review to complain about them. From the lavish recruiting, SAs sometimes get the misimpression that they're valuable. You need the firm a lot more than the firm needs you.

As to the consequences? They probably won't revoke your offer, but this will be your last chance to make an impression for at least a year, and people DO remember when summers rub them the wrong way.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby SFSpartan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:35 pm

If you decide to be direct in your end of summer review, how it's perceived is largely going to be about delivery. You need to find a way to do this in a way that comes across as mature, considered, and respectful (as opposed to your general tone ITT). Run whatever you want to say by someone else so they can check it for tone. If you can't or don't want to do that, then I'd hesitate to be so direct.

Edit: Also, everything that dixie said is on point

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:15 pm

SFSpartan wrote:If you decide to be direct in your end of summer review, how it's perceived is largely going to be about delivery. You need to find a way to do this in a way that comes across as mature, considered, and respectful (as opposed to your general tone ITT). Run whatever you want to say by someone else so they can check it for tone. If you can't or don't want to do that, then I'd hesitate to be so direct.

Edit: Also, everything that dixie said is on point


I'm just trying to learn. What specific thing have I said that is "immature," "inconsiderate," or "disrespectful"?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:16 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are concerns or constructive criticisms that might be appropriate to raise in your review, but these are not.

Your preferred practice group may not have had work for you to do. That happens sometimes. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do it when you come back as an associate. Nor does it mean they were neglecting you. It's just the way the work flows. If by "raising" this concern you mean simply asking whether the firm will be able to accommodate you in your preferred practice, that's fine, but do not complain about the way your summer went.

Your opinion about a partner's strategic decisions, or whether you "find utility in" the work you've been asked to do, are frankly completely irrelevant and it would concern me if I worked with a summer associate who thought otherwise. You don't know the forest from the trees. You can barely even identify a tree yet.

I would honestly be more worried about your firm thinking you're entitled and a bad fit, rather than using your review to complain about them. From the lavish recruiting, SAs sometimes get the misimpression that they're valuable. You need the firm a lot more than the firm needs you.

As to the consequences? They probably won't revoke your offer, but this will be your last chance to make an impression for at least a year, and people DO remember when summers rub them the wrong way.


I understand, but as I said, the senior associate on the team completely agrees, has told me so multiple times, and will be in the room during the end-of-summer review. Does that change things?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby runinthefront » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are concerns or constructive criticisms that might be appropriate to raise in your review, but these are not.

Your preferred practice group may not have had work for you to do. That happens sometimes. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do it when you come back as an associate. Nor does it mean they were neglecting you. It's just the way the work flows. If by "raising" this concern you mean simply asking whether the firm will be able to accommodate you in your preferred practice, that's fine, but do not complain about the way your summer went.

Your opinion about a partner's strategic decisions, or whether you "find utility in" the work you've been asked to do, are frankly completely irrelevant and it would concern me if I worked with a summer associate who thought otherwise. You don't know the forest from the trees. You can barely even identify a tree yet.

I would honestly be more worried about your firm thinking you're entitled and a bad fit, rather than using your review to complain about them. From the lavish recruiting, SAs sometimes get the misimpression that they're valuable. You need the firm a lot more than the firm needs you.

As to the consequences? They probably won't revoke your offer, but this will be your last chance to make an impression for at least a year, and people DO remember when summers rub them the wrong way.


I understand, but as I said, the senior associate on the team completely agrees, has told me so multiple times, and will be in the room during the end-of-summer review. Does that change things?

not to speak for dixiecup, but my answer would be "no, it doesn't"
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Nebby » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:36 pm

Don't raise it.

How does assigning work for summers? Did you reach out to associates in your desired practice group for work or did you just think people would assign you your desired work because you filled it out on a form?

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:There are concerns or constructive criticisms that might be appropriate to raise in your review, but these are not.

Your preferred practice group may not have had work for you to do. That happens sometimes. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do it when you come back as an associate. Nor does it mean they were neglecting you. It's just the way the work flows. If by "raising" this concern you mean simply asking whether the firm will be able to accommodate you in your preferred practice, that's fine, but do not complain about the way your summer went.

Your opinion about a partner's strategic decisions, or whether you "find utility in" the work you've been asked to do, are frankly completely irrelevant and it would concern me if I worked with a summer associate who thought otherwise. You don't know the forest from the trees. You can barely even identify a tree yet.

I would honestly be more worried about your firm thinking you're entitled and a bad fit, rather than using your review to complain about them. From the lavish recruiting, SAs sometimes get the misimpression that they're valuable. You need the firm a lot more than the firm needs you.

As to the consequences? They probably won't revoke your offer, but this will be your last chance to make an impression for at least a year, and people DO remember when summers rub them the wrong way.


I understand, but as I said, the senior associate on the team completely agrees, has told me so multiple times, and will be in the room during the end-of-summer review. Does that change things?



OP, as a general rule, if there is a partner in the room you should try not to say anything that can be construed as criticism of the firm. Law firms can have a very authoritarian mentality in regards to this, and tend to quash dissent very rapidly. I'm not trying to make it seem like your firm is Pyongyang or anything, but even just voicing concerns can backfire on you. It's happened at my firm more than once.

Also, firms do this all the time. They promise everyone at OCI that they're hiring juniors into their appellate group, only to force everyone into leveraged aircraft finance. Them's the breaks

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mjb447

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby mjb447 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:30 pm

runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:. . .


I understand, but as I said, the senior associate on the team completely agrees, has told me so multiple times, and will be in the room during the end-of-summer review. Does that change things?

not to speak for dixiecup, but my answer would be "no, it doesn't"

Are you thinking that the senior associate will speak up against the partner's decision during your end of summer review? Unless I'm missing something, it's a lot more likely that the senior associate has already raised the issue (tactfully and in a better forum) and got shot down or has decided that this isn't a hill to die on.

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landshoes

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby landshoes » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:46 pm

It's also a fast way to burn the senior associate. He/she probably expects this criticism to be kept fairly confidential.

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cron1834

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Re: How honest to be in end-of-summer review?

Postby cron1834 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:52 pm

OP, feel free to ignore literally everybody's advice and report back.



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