State of the Market-Dalla$

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State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:46 am

A lot of the Dallas information on these forums is pretty dated. Would any current/former associates be willing to attest to the current state of Dallas Biglaw? I'm more specifically interested in lit, but would appreciate general insight. Has Susman's departure affected the litigation market? Is Winston's new office the all-star team it looks like from the outside?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby HenryHankPalmer » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:35 pm

Just anecdotally (and based on website), Winston raided the commercial lit department at Fish, as well as firms like Locke Lord and Jones Day. Appears to be a very litigation focused satellite, which seems to fall in line with Winston's focus nationally. I don't have more specific insight as a I am not a current/former Dallas BigLaw associate. A friend of a friend posited that the exodus from Fish had to do with the commercial group seeing the writing on the wall that EDTX patent practice was grinding to a hault.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby DallasSrAssociate » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:59 pm

I'm in the corporate group at another firm in Dallas and happy to answer general questions as well, but anecdotally, will say that I have transacted with W&S Dallas private equity team and they were not impressive.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:21 pm

DallasSrAssociate wrote:I'm in the corporate group at another firm in Dallas and happy to answer general questions as well, but anecdotally, will say that I have transacted with W&S Dallas private equity team and they were not impressive.

How are the Big 3/BigTex firms (Jackson Walker, TK, Locke Lord) doing in light of the growing number of national satellites?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:48 pm

Not OP, but also have questions on the Dallas legal market. For a former D. Ct. and COA clerk, is there an obvious choice between VE and BB? Definitely only want to do litigation, but interested in both trial work and appellate work. Summered in another market so I'm unfamiliar with the specific reps of the two within litigation. Piggybacking on OP, just wanted to hear some thoughts on VE and BB re: litigation for a young former clerk (would be entering as a third year). Thanks!

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:09 pm

Asking the same thing for corporate. From what I can tell, HayBoo, Weil, and Jones Day are the strongest corporate groups in town. Would appreciate more insight on V&E/BB

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:01 pm

VE and BB are regarded as generally top in Texas with VE being "more top"

In Dallas specifically though, HayBoo probably has as much or if not more clout than anyone else in town.

I would say for Dallas that VE=HayBoo>=GDC(they're great but I don't think they do too many Dallas centric deals)>=BB>JD/Weil/etc

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby favabeansoup » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:VE and BB are regarded as generally top in Texas with VE being "more top"

In Dallas specifically though, HayBoo probably has as much or if not more clout than anyone else in town.

I would say for Dallas that VE=HayBoo>=GDC(they're great but I don't think they do too many Dallas centric deals)>=BB>JD/Weil/etc


There's a little more nuance.

HayBoo is a good firm but they do pretty much everything middle market. VE/BB/(now KE) and GDC are going to get you more large deal experience.

Plus comp somewhere like VE is better but the hours are a little worse.

Also per Weil, haven't heard the greatest things about the office. Not that their deal experience is bad, but just that some of the partners are tough to handle. Anecdotal though and last I heard about that was few years ago.

So if you are looking for corporate firms, it really depends on what you are looking for / if you have the credentials to be picky.

If you want big ticket oil and gas deals, VE/BB/maybe GDC/etc

If you want middle market, go HayBoo/ other big Tex/smaller national biglaw satellites.

Then you can do the specific breakups of if you want something like PE work. I'll try to do some more specifics later.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:57 pm

favabeansoup wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:VE and BB are regarded as generally top in Texas with VE being "more top"

In Dallas specifically though, HayBoo probably has as much or if not more clout than anyone else in town.

I would say for Dallas that VE=HayBoo>=GDC(they're great but I don't think they do too many Dallas centric deals)>=BB>JD/Weil/etc


There's a little more nuance.

HayBoo is a good firm but they do pretty much everything middle market. VE/BB/(now KE) and GDC are going to get you more large deal experience.

Plus comp somewhere like VE is better but the hours are a little worse.

Also per Weil, haven't heard the greatest things about the office. Not that their deal experience is bad, but just that some of the partners are tough to handle. Anecdotal though and last I heard about that was few years ago.

So if you are looking for corporate firms, it really depends on what you are looking for / if you have the credentials to be picky.

If you want big ticket oil and gas deals, VE/BB/maybe GDC/etc

If you want middle market, go HayBoo/ other big Tex/smaller national biglaw satellites.

Then you can do the specific breakups of if you want something like PE work. I'll try to do some more specifics later.


I think the middle market stuff about HayBoo is correct but they still handle a mix of bigger stuff too. You're definitely not wrong in saying that VE/BB/GDC handle more of those but GDC Dallas mainly services other offices and the big sexy oil and gas deals you're referring to mainly happen in Houston. Dallas is more PE/banks which is less of a thing overall in Texas. And KE doesn't have a Dallas office.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:02 pm

I would say Hayboo may be one of the better Dallas firms to work at (I don't really know), but I definitely wouldn't say it's one of the "best" based on my impressions.

I see a steady stream of oil and gas deals in Dallas at one of VE/BB but agreed that the biggest ones are run out of Houston.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I would say Hayboo may be one of the better Dallas firms to work at (I don't really know), but I definitely wouldn't say it's one of the "best" based on my impressions.

I see a steady stream of oil and gas deals in Dallas at one of VE/BB but agreed that the biggest ones are run out of Houston.


To be honest, I feel that Dallas is a fairly small pond, for law firms at least. None of the bigger/better firms really devote as much to Dallas.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby favabeansoup » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
favabeansoup wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:VE and BB are regarded as generally top in Texas with VE being "more top"

In Dallas specifically though, HayBoo probably has as much or if not more clout than anyone else in town.

I would say for Dallas that VE=HayBoo>=GDC(they're great but I don't think they do too many Dallas centric deals)>=BB>JD/Weil/etc


There's a little more nuance.

HayBoo is a good firm but they do pretty much everything middle market. VE/BB/(now KE) and GDC are going to get you more large deal experience.

Plus comp somewhere like VE is better but the hours are a little worse.

Also per Weil, haven't heard the greatest things about the office. Not that their deal experience is bad, but just that some of the partners are tough to handle. Anecdotal though and last I heard about that was few years ago.

So if you are looking for corporate firms, it really depends on what you are looking for / if you have the credentials to be picky.

If you want big ticket oil and gas deals, VE/BB/maybe GDC/etc

If you want middle market, go HayBoo/ other big Tex/smaller national biglaw satellites.

Then you can do the specific breakups of if you want something like PE work. I'll try to do some more specifics later.


I think the middle market stuff about HayBoo is correct but they still handle a mix of bigger stuff too. You're definitely not wrong in saying that VE/BB/GDC handle more of those but GDC Dallas mainly services other offices and the big sexy oil and gas deals you're referring to mainly happen in Houston. Dallas is more PE/banks which is less of a thing overall in Texas. And KE doesn't have a Dallas office.



Yeah sorry I kept mixing up Dalls centric vs Texas overall. My b

You are right on GDC doing mostly other office work. Ive heard grumblings that VE dallas isn't that indepedent from VE Houston. But I don't know how much that is felt at associate level.

I think generally I was getting at that if you only want to work on those "big name" deals in Dallas go to VE/BB/GDC

HayBoo does do big work, just their bread and butter is mid market.

Then you have the plethora of TK, Winstead, JW, JD, et al.

This is only if someone has the credentials to pick though. People shouldn't be upset if they can't land a VE/HayBoo gig though. Plenty of firms that do decent corp work in this town and I haven't heard of that many struggling.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
To be honest, I feel that Dallas is a fairly small pond, for law firms at least. None of the bigger/better firms really devote as much to Dallas.


It varies -- we have local clients that are very significant on a national/international scale, and because of cross-office staffing I'll end up on large deals that are based elsewhere.

To the above discussion -- I see TK folks on deals way more than Hayboo.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:19 pm

Anyone in the know willing to do a similar breakdown for litigation?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:50 pm

I think Hayboo is a very strong shop for Dallas and the fact that they are more mid-market is actually a huge benefit for young associates looking for in-house opportunities. I will say, I'm across from HB dallas right now on pretty complicated deal, and their work is not as good as BB/VE. i've been surprised at their level of practice tbh

I'm in Houston but I was talking to a LW/KE associate recently who said that VE was phasing finance out of their dallas office -- is this true?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think Hayboo is a very strong shop for Dallas and the fact that they are more mid-market is actually a huge benefit for young associates looking for in-house opportunities. I will say, I'm across from HB dallas right now on pretty complicated deal, and their work is not as good as BB/VE. i've been surprised at their level of practice tbh

I'm in Houston but I was talking to a LW/KE associate recently who said that VE was phasing finance out of their dallas office -- is this true?


Agree with this. Haynes Boone is does quite a bit of MM work on both company and PE side in Dallas. That said, I have a good friend in-house with a PE shop that has worked with/across HB and they're somewhat frustrated with the quality of their work. Obviously just 2 anecdotes but something to keep in mind.

Also if you're interested in lit, it seems like Sidley and GDC both have some very talented / high profile partners. Not sure about quality of life at either though.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:I think Hayboo is a very strong shop for Dallas and the fact that they are more mid-market is actually a huge benefit for young associates looking for in-house opportunities. I will say, I'm across from HB dallas right now on pretty complicated deal, and their work is not as good as BB/VE. i've been surprised at their level of practice tbh

I'm in Houston but I was talking to a LW/KE associate recently who said that VE was phasing finance out of their dallas office -- is this true?


No, not true at all.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:37 pm

OP here. How is BB Dallas for litigation? I've heard the practice isn't stressed at the main office in Houston, but it looks like a lot of their high profile litigators are in Dallas.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:23 pm

I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby law9898 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?


You're in range but you're going to have to interview very well. I'd say Locke Lorde, TK, JW, Winstead, Gardere, Strasburger, maybe Fulbright and Hay Boo. Probably out at most of the big national firms and BB & VE but there are plenty of marketish paying first that are doable.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:47 am

law9898 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?


You're in range but you're going to have to interview very well. I'd say Locke Lorde, TK, JW, Winstead, Gardere, Strasburger, maybe Fulbright and Hay Boo. Probably out at most of the big national firms and BB & VE but there are plenty of marketish paying first that are doable.


thanks! I have mass mailed those or at least bid on them for OCI. do you have any insights for firms that are NOT biglaw but still pay well? Is there Dallas/Houston midlaw type stuff, or boutique stuff? Any advice for pursuing those?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Roy McAvoy » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
law9898 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?


You're in range but you're going to have to interview very well. I'd say Locke Lorde, TK, JW, Winstead, Gardere, Strasburger, maybe Fulbright and Hay Boo. Probably out at most of the big national firms and BB & VE but there are plenty of marketish paying first that are doable.


thanks! I have mass mailed those or at least bid on them for OCI. do you have any insights for firms that are NOT biglaw but still pay well? Is there Dallas/Houston midlaw type stuff, or boutique stuff? Any advice for pursuing those?


What type of law do you want to do?

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:35 am

Roy McAvoy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
law9898 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?


You're in range but you're going to have to interview very well. I'd say Locke Lorde, TK, JW, Winstead, Gardere, Strasburger, maybe Fulbright and Hay Boo. Probably out at most of the big national firms and BB & VE but there are plenty of marketish paying first that are doable.


thanks! I have mass mailed those or at least bid on them for OCI. do you have any insights for firms that are NOT biglaw but still pay well? Is there Dallas/Houston midlaw type stuff, or boutique stuff? Any advice for pursuing those?


What type of law do you want to do?


I don't have a particularly strong preference. I'm interested in exploring litigation and transactional/corporate work. I don't love writing so maybe I'm leaning less litigation. The type of law I want to do is the type where I can make $100k+ in Texas, basically

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Roy McAvoy » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Roy McAvoy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
law9898 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?


You're in range but you're going to have to interview very well. I'd say Locke Lorde, TK, JW, Winstead, Gardere, Strasburger, maybe Fulbright and Hay Boo. Probably out at most of the big national firms and BB & VE but there are plenty of marketish paying first that are doable.


thanks! I have mass mailed those or at least bid on them for OCI. do you have any insights for firms that are NOT biglaw but still pay well? Is there Dallas/Houston midlaw type stuff, or boutique stuff? Any advice for pursuing those?


What type of law do you want to do?


I don't have a particularly strong preference. I'm interested in exploring litigation and transactional/corporate work. I don't love writing so maybe I'm leaning less litigation. The type of law I want to do is the type where I can make $100k+ in Texas, basically


Unfortunately both of the boutiques I'm familiar with either do either patent work or litigation, so I don't really have any recommendations then. Good luck.

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Re: State of the Market-Dalla$

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:42 pm

Roy McAvoy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Roy McAvoy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
law9898 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm median at Vandy pursuing Dallas with ties (and Houston)--Any advice on best firms for my stats?


You're in range but you're going to have to interview very well. I'd say Locke Lorde, TK, JW, Winstead, Gardere, Strasburger, maybe Fulbright and Hay Boo. Probably out at most of the big national firms and BB & VE but there are plenty of marketish paying first that are doable.


thanks! I have mass mailed those or at least bid on them for OCI. do you have any insights for firms that are NOT biglaw but still pay well? Is there Dallas/Houston midlaw type stuff, or boutique stuff? Any advice for pursuing those?


What type of law do you want to do?


I don't have a particularly strong preference. I'm interested in exploring litigation and transactional/corporate work. I don't love writing so maybe I'm leaning less litigation. The type of law I want to do is the type where I can make $100k+ in Texas, basically


Unfortunately both of the boutiques I'm familiar with either do either patent work or litigation, so I don't really have any recommendations then. Good luck.


I def can't do patent but would you mind PM'ing the boutique lit firm? BC I have never practiced law and I really don't know if I dislike lit at all, and I am applying to a lot of primarily lit firms anyway to cast a wide net.



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