Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

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morningstar

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Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:49 pm

Hey guys, I posted a few months ago about compiling my bid list for OCI at a lower-T14 school. I have median grades (with one top-of-class award). HOWEVER, I have NO 1l job and no extracurriculars for my 1l year. Yes, I have reasons. I was pregnant and on bed rest for most of my fall 1L semester, my son was born very prematurely and passed away and I wasn't in the right place to take my spring 1L finals. I ended up taking a year off to process and went back to join the 2019 graduating class (was originally 2018). I'm pregnant (and facing medical issues again) at the moment, so my 1L plans went out the window.

First of all, I know I'm pretty screwed. You don't need to tell me HOW screwed I am, my constant anxiety does a good job at reminding me hourly. Also, I'm sure a lot of you have opinions on me being pregnant twice and having two pregnancy-related excuses for different things, but you don't know my situation. The second pregnancy was very much unexpected as we had been diagnosed with unexplained fertility, so getting pregnant the second time was a shock. This thread isn't about my personal life choices, it's about maximizing my bid list based on my slim odds, grades, and personal circumstances.

NOW, having said that, I have grabbed all of the bidding data for firms attending my school, and I need help optimizing it. Right now, this is EVERY FIRM with an office in one of my target markets (Dallas - strong unquestionable family ties, Orange County/LA - lived there for 11 years and did my undergrad there, NY - it's NY). If you guys have any advice on firms that I should focus on or rule out and not waste a bid on, it's much appreciated.

Akin, Gump - LA
Allen Matkins - Irvine, LA
Alston & Bird - Dallas, LA, NY
Arnold & Porter - LA
Axinn - NY
Baker Botts - Dallas, NY
Boies Schiller - NY, LA
Bryan Cave - Santa Monica
Cades Schutte - Honolulu (I have reasons that aren't "because hawaii")
Cadwalader - NY
Cleary, Gottlieb - NY
Cooley - NY
Covington & Burling - LA
Cox, Castle & Nicholson - LA
Crowell & Moring - Irvine
Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt - NY
Davis Polk & Wardwell - NY
Dechert - NY
DLA Piper - LA
Drinker Biddle & Reath - LA
Faegre Baker Daniels - LA
Fenwick & West - NY
Foley & Lardner - LA
Fox Rothschild - Dallas
Freshfields - London, NY
Gibson Dunn - Dallas, LA, OC
Gibson Dunn - NY
Goodwin Procter - LA
Gunderson Dettmer - NY
Haynes & Boone - Dallas, OC
Hogan Lovells - LA
Hooper Lundy & Bookman - LA
Hunton & Williams - Dallas
Irell & Manella - Century City
Irell & Manella - Newport
Jones Day - Irvine
Jones Day - LA
Jones Day - Dallas, NY
K&L Gates - LA
King & Spalding - NY
Kirkland & Ellis - LA
Klee, Tuchin, Bogdanoff & Stern - LA
Latham & Watkins - NY
Latham & Watkins - OC
Latham & Watkins - London
Lewis Roca - LA
Littler Mendelson - Dallas, LA, NY
Manatt Phelps - LA
Mayer Brown - LA, NY
McDermott Will & Emery - LA
Michelman & Robinson - Irvine, LA, NY
Milbank, Tweed - NY
Milbank, Tweed - LA
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius - LA
Morrison & Foerster - LA
Morrison & Foerster - NY
Munger, Tolles & Olson - LA
O'Melveny & Myers - LA
O'Melveny & Myers - Century City
O'Melveny & Myers - Newport
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe - Irvine
Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe - LA
Paul, Weiss - NY
Perkins Coie - LA
Pillsbury Winthrop - LA
Proskauer Rose - NY
Proskauer Rose - LA
Reed Smith - LA
Ropes & Gray - NY
Rutan & Tucker - Orange County
Sheppard Mullin - Century City
Sheppard Mullin - Orange County
Sheppard Mullin - LA
Sidley Austin - LA
Simpson Thacher - LA
Simpson Thacher - NY
Sullivan & Cromwell - LA, NY
Susman Godfrey - LA, NY
Vinson & Elkins - Dallas, NY
White & Case - LA
White & Case - NY
WilmerHale - LA
WilmerHale - NY
Wilson Sonsini - LA
Winston & Strawn - Dallas, LA, NY

I'll start. It seems like I should rule out Latham, Sheppard, and V&E just based on grades. I have a huge spreadsheet of all the firms with their expected class sizes for each office, and how successful last year's candidates were. I need to get into my CDO so I can look at the GPA data obviously. Just wanted to see if anyone could help me narrow my list a bit or give me ideas for firms to focus on based on personal experience. Most of these firms won't let me interview for multiple firms, so obviously I'll be prioritizing the one with the largest class size unless there are circumstances that make it more feasible to bid another office (i.e. Dallas has a slightly smaller class size than LA but is much less selective).

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Wipfelder » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:17 pm

Nothing helpful to add, but I don't think anyone is going to bat an eye at you having no 1L stuff. I skipped law review tryouts and when interviewing just said "I'm focusing on other stuff", and that went fine.

Good interviewing skills (a little passion for the practice area the interviewer works in is helpful), strong ties, and median T14 is a pretty good situation to be in for those markets. The vast majority of the class of 2019 is not in as good of a position as you are.

It seems to me like you've shown some real strength and resiliency. Seriously, mad props.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Roy McAvoy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:22 pm

I hope everything works out for you pregnancy-wise. Can't imagine going through that, especially twice.

With that said, you have an enormous list. What exactly do you want to do?

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:32 pm

Wipfelder wrote:Nothing helpful to add, but I don't think anyone is going to bat an eye at you having no 1L stuff. I skipped law review tryouts and when interviewing just said "I'm focusing on other stuff", and that went fine.

Good interviewing skills (a little passion for the practice area the interviewer works in is helpful), strong ties, and median T14 is a pretty good situation to be in for those markets. The vast majority of the class of 2019 is not in as good of a position as you are.

It seems to me like you've shown some real strength and resiliency. Seriously, mad props.


Thanks for the kind words, I think the worst part has been dealing with the crippling anxiety. After my son died I had a hard time leaving the house for months, and going back to school was seriously a terrifying experience. I'm not putting all my eggs in the biglaw basket, but I'm not giving up without a fight either.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:34 pm

Roy McAvoy wrote:I hope everything works out for you pregnancy-wise. Can't imagine going through that, especially twice.

With that said, you have an enormous list. What exactly do you want to do?


Basically, I'm hoping people jump in and say "because of your grades, rule out XXX and YYY", "typically ZZZ requires strong 1L summer/extracurricular so you can scratch them", or "I heard AAA and BBB don't care as much about ___". Then, once I've scratched off some from the list and found a few strong contenders, hopefully I'll be dealing with a more manageable list to prioritize my bid order.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Mullens » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:38 pm

morningstar wrote:
Roy McAvoy wrote:I hope everything works out for you pregnancy-wise. Can't imagine going through that, especially twice.

With that said, you have an enormous list. What exactly do you want to do?


Basically, I'm hoping people jump in and say "because of your grades, rule out XXX and YYY", "typically ZZZ requires strong 1L summer/extracurricular so you can scratch them", or "I heard AAA and BBB don't care as much about ___". Then, once I've scratched off some from the list and found a few strong contenders, hopefully I'll be dealing with a more manageable list to prioritize my bid order.


The grade data from your school is gonna be far more useful than anything people can provide on TLS with respect to grade cutoffs. I have a general idea where you would be competitive from my lower T14 but based on the firm list I'm pretty sure it's a different school.

ETA: I think he's asking what kind of law you want to do, which is important info.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Roy McAvoy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:41 pm

Mullens wrote:
morningstar wrote:
Roy McAvoy wrote:I hope everything works out for you pregnancy-wise. Can't imagine going through that, especially twice.

With that said, you have an enormous list. What exactly do you want to do?


Basically, I'm hoping people jump in and say "because of your grades, rule out XXX and YYY", "typically ZZZ requires strong 1L summer/extracurricular so you can scratch them", or "I heard AAA and BBB don't care as much about ___". Then, once I've scratched off some from the list and found a few strong contenders, hopefully I'll be dealing with a more manageable list to prioritize my bid order.


The grade data from your school is gonna be far more useful than anything people can provide on TLS with respect to grade cutoffs. I have a general idea where you would be competitive from my lower T14 but based on the firm list I'm pretty sure it's a different school.

ETA: I think he's asking what kind of law you want to do, which is important info.


Correct. What kind of law?

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby GoneSouth » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:41 pm

I'm pretty confused by your statement that you should rule out Latham, Sheppard, and V&E because of grades. There are a bunch of more grade-selective firms on your list than those (e.g. Boies, SullCrom NY, Simpson NY, Gibson Dunn, etc.).

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Peck.173 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:52 pm

GoneSouth wrote:I'm pretty confused by your statement that you should rule out Latham, Sheppard, and V&E because of grades. There are a bunch of more grade-selective firms on your list than those (e.g. Boies, SullCrom NY, Simpson NY, Gibson Dunn, etc.).


This ^^^ threw me off entirely. Given that you're at a T14, look at the bid sheet career services puts out. Any firms out of your range (a few others are quietly likely out of range) should be stricken.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:53 pm

Roy McAvoy wrote:
Mullens wrote:
morningstar wrote:
Roy McAvoy wrote:I hope everything works out for you pregnancy-wise. Can't imagine going through that, especially twice.

With that said, you have an enormous list. What exactly do you want to do?


Basically, I'm hoping people jump in and say "because of your grades, rule out XXX and YYY", "typically ZZZ requires strong 1L summer/extracurricular so you can scratch them", or "I heard AAA and BBB don't care as much about ___". Then, once I've scratched off some from the list and found a few strong contenders, hopefully I'll be dealing with a more manageable list to prioritize my bid order.


The grade data from your school is gonna be far more useful than anything people can provide on TLS with respect to grade cutoffs. I have a general idea where you would be competitive from my lower T14 but based on the firm list I'm pretty sure it's a different school.

ETA: I think he's asking what kind of law you want to do, which is important info.


Correct. What kind of law?


I've kicked this around quite a bit but it's hard because I haven't gotten to take any specialized classes. I always thought it sucked that you have to pick a practice area to get a job before you really to get to see if you actually like the area, but I such is life. Contracts was what I got the top grade in, and I feel like I have a knack for it. I'm in an area where IP/Tech is very in demand, but I don't want to be in San Fran so it's probably not wise to specialize in that. So I would say Contracts, civil lit, real estate is where I feel comfortable. Equally so for all three.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:55 pm

GoneSouth wrote:I'm pretty confused by your statement that you should rule out Latham, Sheppard, and V&E because of grades. There are a bunch of more grade-selective firms on your list than those (e.g. Boies, SullCrom NY, Simpson NY, Gibson Dunn, etc.).


Those were just some that I know can be pretty selective and probably aren't the best to focus on. I just don't have enough experience with most of these firms to know how selective they are. I'll try to go into the CDO tomorrow to look at the grade data. They won't just give it to us, we have to go view it in the office so I was hoping to narrow the list down a bit before I go in. Obviously there are some that only take top 10-20% of the class for lower T14, so if I can isolate them I can go ahead and rule them out.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby favabeansoup » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:58 pm

I'm assuming this list is solely for OCI bidding and not for massmailing right?

There are many more Dallas firms that you can and should be massmailing, and your stats can make you competitive for spots. However, if we are just talking your OCI bidding and these are the only firms with Dallas offices that are coming:

V&E Dallas- you aren't likely to get, I wouldn't waste the bid personally. They recruit higher than median lower T14.

Littler Dallas- is all Labor and Employment work. If you don't want to do that do waste the bid there.

Fox Rothschild - pays pretty below market ($125k last I checked, but might be more with recent raises), and has super small summer class (1-2), I would bid low

HayBoo/Jones Day/Hunton/Gibson/Baker - I think they are all fine. Freeballing here but my thoughts would be you have best chance at HayBoo or Hunton, followed by Jones Day + Gibson, and Baker coming in as least likely due to them being more selective.

Overall, I think you have some thinking to do. I don't quite know if you are in the position to successfully target 3 different markets in an OCI setting. Considering number of your LA choices, it seems like you are leaning that way. I think it might be worth it to focus exclusively LA/OC/NY in your OCI bidding, then stick Dallas to mass mailing. Lots of firms there that might give you a chance due to ties + grades, but I think the OCI spots are better left for more LA/OC spots or NYC firms as backup.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:02 pm

Also, I just made an appointment with the CDO to look at the grade data but the first slot available was on Friday afternoon. Any advice to narrow down the list in the meantime? I only have 30 minutes, so I don't want to go in and be like "here's a list of pretty much every firm coming to OCI....thoughts?"

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:07 pm

favabeansoup wrote:I'm assuming this list is solely for OCI bidding and not for massmailing right?

There are many more Dallas firms that you can and should be massmailing, and your stats can make you competitive for spots. However, if we are just talking your OCI bidding and these are the only firms with Dallas offices that are coming:

V&E Dallas- you aren't likely to get, I wouldn't waste the bid personally. They recruit higher than median lower T14.

Littler Dallas- is all Labor and Employment work. If you don't want to do that do waste the bid there.

Fox Rothschild - pays pretty below market ($125k last I checked, but might be more with recent raises), and has super small summer class (1-2), I would bid low

HayBoo/Jones Day/Hunton/Gibson/Baker - I think they are all fine. Freeballing here but my thoughts would be you have best chance at HayBoo or Hunton, followed by Jones Day + Gibson, and Baker coming in as least likely due to them being more selective.

Overall, I think you have some thinking to do. I don't quite know if you are in the position to successfully target 3 different markets in an OCI setting. Considering number of your LA choices, it seems like you are leaning that way. I think it might be worth it to focus exclusively LA/OC/NY in your OCI bidding, then stick Dallas to mass mailing. Lots of firms there that might give you a chance due to ties + grades, but I think the OCI spots are better left for more LA/OC spots or NYC firms as backup.


Thank you so much! This is exactly the kind of help I was looking for. Also, I'm planning to use Dallas as my "filler", using the Dallas offices that aren't terribly selective and have decent class sizes to round out my bid list. We can bid an unlimited number, so I figured it made sense to supplement my list with less-picky Dallas firms rather than uber-picky NY firms.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:30 am

So since I can't get in to see a CDO counselor until Friday, I've been doing a little research. I know it's pretty anecdotal, but can anyone confirm/refute any of these?

Not terribly GPA selective

Akin Gump - LA
Cadwalader - NY
Mayer Brown - LA
McDermott Will - LA
Milbank Tweed - NY, LA
White & Case - NY, LA


Pretty GPA selective (probably scratch them out)

Arnold & Porter - LA
Covington & Burling - LA
Kirkland & Ellis - LA
Paul Weiss - NY
Sullivan & Cromwell - LA

Like I said, it's anecdotal based on other people's posts but maybe a starting point to help narrow down Mongo-the-megalist?

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:20 pm

I just wanted to bump this and see if anyone had additional input. I also realized that the appointment I made with CDO was for a public sector counselor (he was the only one with openings) and that won't work for what I need so I don't have an appointment to go in before my bidding window expires, which sucks. I'm still going to go in tomorrow because I need to look at that GPA data, and I'm hoping they'll let me do it without an appointment, but now I feel like more than ever I need some advice.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:25 pm

Milbank is less grade selective if you're at CCN or above, but not from lower T-13

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:32 pm

Peck.173 wrote:
GoneSouth wrote:I'm pretty confused by your statement that you should rule out Latham, Sheppard, and V&E because of grades. There are a bunch of more grade-selective firms on your list than those (e.g. Boies, SullCrom NY, Simpson NY, Gibson Dunn, etc.).


This ^^^ threw me off entirely. Given that you're at a T14, look at the bid sheet career services puts out. Any firms out of your range (a few others are quietly likely out of range) should be stricken.


Sheppard is not that grade selective. If you have ties to OC, apply to the OC office.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Milbank is less grade selective if you're at CCN or above, but not from lower T-13


At my non-CCN T14 it looks like Median students have a solid shot in NY.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:39 pm

morningstar wrote:So since I can't get in to see a CDO counselor until Friday, I've been doing a little research. I know it's pretty anecdotal, but can anyone confirm/refute any of these?

Not terribly GPA selective

Akin Gump - LA
Cadwalader - NY
Mayer Brown - LA
McDermott Will - LA
Milbank Tweed - NY, LA
White & Case - NY, LA


Pretty GPA selective (probably scratch them out)

Arnold & Porter - LA
Covington & Burling - LA
Kirkland & Ellis - LA
Paul Weiss - NY
Sullivan & Cromwell - LA

Like I said, it's anecdotal based on other people's posts but maybe a starting point to help narrow down Mongo-the-megalist?


That's about right, yep

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:30 am

Thanks everyone, it's starting to resemble a reasonable list. Still hoping I can get GPA data to supplement it tomorrow. Are there any uber-Biglaw firms (the ones with the 100+ SA classes) that aren't as picky? I've ruled out Davis Polk, Paul Weiss, Simpson Thacher and Sullivan & Cromwell). Looks like Cleary Gottlieb has a big class size, are they worth a bid with my stats?

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby jaekeem » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:32 am

based on data from CS at my T14, I would say Cleary NY/DC are also v. grade selective

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:34 am

Thanks! Looks like I'm bidding midsize classes (30-70). I don't think any of the HugeLaw that's coming to our OCI will take me.

Also, does anyone have advice (since I'm not bidding the biggest of the big) on LA vs NY offices? Should I strictly stick to whichever is bigger? It seems like the LA offices are always more laid back and I thought maybe that might work in my favor.

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby morningstar » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:42 am

The firms where I'm going to have to choose an office to bid on (because they don't allow multiple interviews for multiple locations) are:

(the number is the class size based on what I've been able to find)

Alston & Bird - 4 Dallas, 2 LA, 6 NY
Baker Botts - 6 Dallas, 8 NY
Gibson Dunn - 3 Dallas, 14 LA, 7 OC (last year's #s)
Haynes & Boone - 21 Dallas, ? OC
Irell & Manella - 10 LA, ? OC
Jones Day - 4 OC, 7 LA, 4 Dallas
Morrison & Foerster - 2 LA, 8 NY (last year's #s)
Orrick Herrington - 2 OC, 6 LA
White & Case - 5 LA, 56 NY
Winston & Strawn - ? Dallas, 6 LA, 22 NY

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Re: Firm-specific OCI bidding advice w/extenuating circumstances

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:45 am

morningstar wrote:So since I can't get in to see a CDO counselor until Friday, I've been doing a little research. I know it's pretty anecdotal, but can anyone confirm/refute any of these?


Pretty GPA selective (probably scratch them out)

Arnold & Porter - LA
Covington & Burling - LA
Kirkland & Ellis - LA
Paul Weiss - NY
Sullivan & Cromwell - LA

Like I said, it's anecdotal based on other people's posts but maybe a starting point to help narrow down Mongo-the-megalist?


Here's a bunch more that will be too grade selective (all offices):
Boies Schiller
Cleary
Covington, probably (though don't know their LA office well)
Davis Polk
Gibson Dunn
Irell
Latham
O'Melveny (at least LA)
Simpson Thacher
Susman Godfrey
WilmerHale

A couple less grade selective, at least from my experience:
Curtis
Dechert
DLA Piper
Drinker Biddle
Foley Lardner, maybe
K&L Gates
Jones Day, probably
Wilson Sonsini
Winston Strawn

I'm probably forgetting a bunch. Don't waste a bid on that Honolulu firm, especially if it's just for Hawaii. They probably will spend 80% of OCI being annoyed at people who bid just for Hawaii.

Good luck with everything.



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