Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

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Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:51 pm

3.0 GPA at a mid- T-20 (UCLA/UT/VANDY). At this point, I am willing to work anywhere in the USA, which markets should I reach out to?

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3.0 GPA at a mid- T-20 (UCLA/UT/VANDY). At this point, I am willing to work anywhere in the USA, which markets should I reach out to?


New York + School's market (if Vandy - DC, Atlanta, Texas? Not so sure where they place well so I'll defer to others; Texas - Dallas and Houston; UCLA - LA) + your home market/market where you have ties.

ETA: All will be grade sensitive to an extent. But that shouldn't be your concern - should get out as many apps as possible and see where chips land.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby lolwat » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:04 pm

I think it has to be NYC and then wherever your school places well and wherever you have ties.

Remember that "smaller" markets in which firms aren't as grade sensitive are often sensitive to other things -- like ties to the area. That's often precisely why they're not as grade sensitive, because they value those "other things" more.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby SmokeytheBear » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:56 pm

If you're at UCLA you're going to have a hard shot any big law in SoCal.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby favabeansoup » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:21 pm

Texas biglaw is most likely out for you if you are at UT and not URM.

Median at Texas is the traditionally in the 3.3-3.4 range, and biglaw here doesn't go that much below median at UT absent URM or other special circumstances (like significant hard IP background).

I would do what others have suggested. Mass mail heavily to a NYC and schools market regardless because you never know and what's the harm. I would also look into the smaller to mid sized firm range as your primary targets. For Texas there are a number of threads recently giving large lists of small to mid sized firms that you'll likely find helpfully.

RaceJudicata

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:25 pm

FWIW, this article is sorta on point as far as where a good place to apply is... The number of summers in NYC vs. Not in NYC is staggering.

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/07/higher-p ... e-looming/

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:29 pm

Target markets that don't have T14s and aren't on the west coast (and aren't Denver/Austin): Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, etc. I'm not as familiar with firms outside of the midwest/coasts, so I'm not sure how grade-sensitive cities like Atlanta are.

Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell, Thompson Coburn, Quarles & Brady, and Dorsey & Whitney.

You might as well mass mail NYC, but understand that most big firms there are still grade-sensitive to a point, and a 3.0 from a lower-T14 would struggle mightily.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:02 pm

Definitely figure out a way to prioritize but you really do need to apply to literally all of the firms. Start at the top of your list and go down in order but don't stop blasting until you have a job.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Target markets that don't have T14s and aren't on the west coast (and aren't Denver/Austin): Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, etc. I'm not as familiar with firms outside of the midwest/coasts, so I'm not sure how grade-sensitive cities like Atlanta are.

Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell, Thompson Coburn, Quarles & Brady, and Dorsey & Whitney.

You might as well mass mail NYC, but understand that most big firms there are still grade-sensitive to a point, and a 3.0 from a lower-T14 would struggle mightily.


This is bad advice, IMO.

1. All markets have T-14 students (plenty of T-14 folks go to their home markets).
2. The regional markets you listed will be VERY interested in ties and won't give a crap that OP went to UCLA, UT or Vandy.
3. Big Zuck is right - apply to every firm that you can possibly apply to.

That said, if I were going to cut my list short, I'd start with the very markets you have listed (unless, of course, OP has ties to those markets).

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell...Quarles & Brady ...


I can speak to personal knowledge of these three firms (friends/relatives at each). It really depends on which specific school OP is at (aka where a 3.0 places him in class) and what markets they are trying to break into. If 3.0 means he is bottom 1/3, then he's probably out at all three regardless of market. If 3.0 means close to median, he may have a shot depending on the market and his ties.

Would be very helpful to know where OP has ties to. If he has ties to Phoenix or Wisconsin or MIssouri, for example, he could put up a fighting chance. If his only ties are your major East/West Coast cities, might be a tough sell for a lot of the markets these firms are in.

There was a recent summer class at one of these firms that had someone with absolutely zero ties still get in. Was at equivalent of KC for Husch/Polsinelli or Milwaukee for Quarles. However, that person was top 1/3 at a T10. Definitely general rule that some ties are needed for many of these firms bigger markets.

OP, regardless, you should be mass mailing EVERYONE. You can try to target some of these places for extra networking/OCI, but you should be mass mailing everyone you can find.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, ...Quarles & Brady ...


I can speak to personal knowledge of these three firms (friends/relatives at each). It really depends on which specific school OP is at (aka where a 3.0 places him in class) and what markets they are trying to break into. If 3.0 means he is bottom 1/3, then he's probably out at all three regardless of market. If 3.0 means close to median, he may have a shot depending on the market and his ties.

Would be very helpful to know where OP has ties to. If he has ties to Phoenix or Wisconsin or MIssouri, for example, he could put up a fighting chance. If his only ties are your major East/West Coast cities, might be a tough sell for a lot of the markets these firms are in.

There was a recent summer class at one of these firms that had someone with absolutely zero ties still get in. Was at equivalent of KC for Husch/Polsinelli or Milwaukee for Quarles. However, that person was top 1/3 at a T10. Definitely general rule that some ties are needed for many of these firms bigger markets.

OP, regardless, you should be mass mailing EVERYONE. You can try to target some of these places for extra networking/OCI, but you should be mass mailing everyone you can find.


Thank-you for the advice! I am from the South originally (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina area). Would it be wise to apply to a more obscure office for example, I assume that the firm in Chattanooga would be less appealing to most compared to Dallas.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby lolwat » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thank-you for the advice! I am from the South originally (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina area). Would it be wise to apply to a more obscure office for example, I assume that the firm in Chattanooga would be less appealing to most compared to Dallas.


Yes, you'll definitely want to apply to those kinds of firms -- and those kinds of offices -- because you have ties there.

You'll have to realize, though, that the Chattanooga office of a firm probably hires fewer people than the Dallas office.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby malibustacy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, ...Quarles & Brady ...


I can speak to personal knowledge of these three firms (friends/relatives at each). It really depends on which specific school OP is at (aka where a 3.0 places him in class) and what markets they are trying to break into. If 3.0 means he is bottom 1/3, then he's probably out at all three regardless of market. If 3.0 means close to median, he may have a shot depending on the market and his ties.

Would be very helpful to know where OP has ties to. If he has ties to Phoenix or Wisconsin or MIssouri, for example, he could put up a fighting chance. If his only ties are your major East/West Coast cities, might be a tough sell for a lot of the markets these firms are in.

There was a recent summer class at one of these firms that had someone with absolutely zero ties still get in. Was at equivalent of KC for Husch/Polsinelli or Milwaukee for Quarles. However, that person was top 1/3 at a T10. Definitely general rule that some ties are needed for many of these firms bigger markets.

OP, regardless, you should be mass mailing EVERYONE. You can try to target some of these places for extra networking/OCI, but you should be mass mailing everyone you can find.


Thank-you for the advice! I am from the South originally (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina area). Would it be wise to apply to a more obscure office for example, I assume that the firm in Chattanooga would be less appealing to most compared to Dallas.


You're in a hard spot. 3.0 at UT/Vandy/UCLA is bottom 25% or so. Obscure offices don't hire many summers, and the ones they often select are top students at regional schools or those at T13s that want to come back home. A good deal of firms, even in New York, don't recruit at 3.0 from your school. Just mass mail widely, and see what happens.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:18 pm

RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Target markets that don't have T14s and aren't on the west coast (and aren't Denver/Austin): Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, etc. I'm not as familiar with firms outside of the midwest/coasts, so I'm not sure how grade-sensitive cities like Atlanta are.

Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, Husch Blackwell, Thompson Coburn, Quarles & Brady, and Dorsey & Whitney.

You might as well mass mail NYC, but understand that most big firms there are still grade-sensitive to a point, and a 3.0 from a lower-T14 would struggle mightily.


This is bad advice, IMO.

1. All markets have T-14 students (plenty of T-14 folks go to their home markets).
2. The regional markets you listed will be VERY interested in ties and won't give a crap that OP went to UCLA, UT or Vandy.
3. Big Zuck is right - apply to every firm that you can possibly apply to.

That said, if I were going to cut my list short, I'd start with the very markets you have listed (unless, of course, OP has ties to those markets).


I'm the quoted Anon, and I got an offer from a market I listed w/o ties (and interviews in several cities I had never been to in my life). I had much better luck in these regional markets than in NYC/my super-competitive regional. You do have to have some reason for wanting to be there, though.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:36 pm

malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, ...Quarles & Brady ...


I can speak to personal knowledge of these three firms (friends/relatives at each). It really depends on which specific school OP is at (aka where a 3.0 places him in class) and what markets they are trying to break into. If 3.0 means he is bottom 1/3, then he's probably out at all three regardless of market. If 3.0 means close to median, he may have a shot depending on the market and his ties.

Would be very helpful to know where OP has ties to. If he has ties to Phoenix or Wisconsin or MIssouri, for example, he could put up a fighting chance. If his only ties are your major East/West Coast cities, might be a tough sell for a lot of the markets these firms are in.

There was a recent summer class at one of these firms that had someone with absolutely zero ties still get in. Was at equivalent of KC for Husch/Polsinelli or Milwaukee for Quarles. However, that person was top 1/3 at a T10. Definitely general rule that some ties are needed for many of these firms bigger markets.

OP, regardless, you should be mass mailing EVERYONE. You can try to target some of these places for extra networking/OCI, but you should be mass mailing everyone you can find.


Thank-you for the advice! I am from the South originally (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina area). Would it be wise to apply to a more obscure office for example, I assume that the firm in Chattanooga would be less appealing to most compared to Dallas.


You're in a hard spot. 3.0 at UT/Vandy/UCLA is bottom 25% or so. Obscure offices don't hire many summers, and the ones they often select are top students at regional schools or those at T13s that want to come back home. A good deal of firms, even in New York, don't recruit at 3.0 from your school. Just mass mail widely, and see what happens.

Yes, I know I'm in a very tough spot. I'm really on a hope and a prayer at the moment. 1L year really kicked my behind. I'm hoping for a better 2L year since I've been seeing a therapist (diagnosed with anxiety and I've been on meds for that). Big law was never my goal, but I really just can't believe I did this bad (I'm still in disbelief). I believe that most of the lawyers at my current 1L Summer job ( in-house) have worked at some of the firms listed. I am going to try to network to them and see if I can at least get an interview. I've been told that I am a strong interviewer by many people, so I'm hoping that they'll help.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby SmokeytheBear » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, ...Quarles & Brady ...


I can speak to personal knowledge of these three firms (friends/relatives at each). It really depends on which specific school OP is at (aka where a 3.0 places him in class) and what markets they are trying to break into. If 3.0 means he is bottom 1/3, then he's probably out at all three regardless of market. If 3.0 means close to median, he may have a shot depending on the market and his ties.

Would be very helpful to know where OP has ties to. If he has ties to Phoenix or Wisconsin or MIssouri, for example, he could put up a fighting chance. If his only ties are your major East/West Coast cities, might be a tough sell for a lot of the markets these firms are in.

There was a recent summer class at one of these firms that had someone with absolutely zero ties still get in. Was at equivalent of KC for Husch/Polsinelli or Milwaukee for Quarles. However, that person was top 1/3 at a T10. Definitely general rule that some ties are needed for many of these firms bigger markets.

OP, regardless, you should be mass mailing EVERYONE. You can try to target some of these places for extra networking/OCI, but you should be mass mailing everyone you can find.


Thank-you for the advice! I am from the South originally (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina area). Would it be wise to apply to a more obscure office for example, I assume that the firm in Chattanooga would be less appealing to most compared to Dallas.


You're in a hard spot. 3.0 at UT/Vandy/UCLA is bottom 25% or so. Obscure offices don't hire many summers, and the ones they often select are top students at regional schools or those at T13s that want to come back home. A good deal of firms, even in New York, don't recruit at 3.0 from your school. Just mass mail widely, and see what happens.

Yes, I know I'm in a very tough spot. I'm really on a hope and a prayer at the moment. 1L year really kicked my behind. I'm hoping for a better 2L year since I've been seeing a therapist (diagnosed with anxiety and I've been on meds for that). Big law was never my goal, but I really just can't believe I did this bad (I'm still in disbelief). I believe that most of the lawyers at my current 1L Summer job ( in-house) have worked at some of the firms listed. I am going to try to network to them and see if I can at least get an interview. I've been told that I am a strong interviewer by many people, so I'm hoping that they'll help.


Amigo, if big law was never your goal then don't sweat this much to get it. It wasn't what you wanted, it likely isn't meant to be based on your grades, and so you might want to focus your efforts on figuring out what your goal is. Otherwise this is just a distraction from figuring out what your purpose is.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby lolwat » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:54 pm

Huh. You managed to snag an in-house 1L summer spot?

That doesn't sound bad at all.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:08 pm

lolwat wrote:Huh. You managed to snag an in-house 1L summer spot?

That doesn't sound bad at all.


Yes, as stated I am a very good interviewer ( personable and can easily read people's emotions) so usually if I land the interview I can get it.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:09 pm

SmokeytheBear wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Focus on midmarket-oriented firms like Polsinelli, ...Quarles & Brady ...


I can speak to personal knowledge of these three firms (friends/relatives at each). It really depends on which specific school OP is at (aka where a 3.0 places him in class) and what markets they are trying to break into. If 3.0 means he is bottom 1/3, then he's probably out at all three regardless of market. If 3.0 means close to median, he may have a shot depending on the market and his ties.

Would be very helpful to know where OP has ties to. If he has ties to Phoenix or Wisconsin or MIssouri, for example, he could put up a fighting chance. If his only ties are your major East/West Coast cities, might be a tough sell for a lot of the markets these firms are in.

There was a recent summer class at one of these firms that had someone with absolutely zero ties still get in. Was at equivalent of KC for Husch/Polsinelli or Milwaukee for Quarles. However, that person was top 1/3 at a T10. Definitely general rule that some ties are needed for many of these firms bigger markets.

OP, regardless, you should be mass mailing EVERYONE. You can try to target some of these places for extra networking/OCI, but you should be mass mailing everyone you can find.


Thank-you for the advice! I am from the South originally (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina area). Would it be wise to apply to a more obscure office for example, I assume that the firm in Chattanooga would be less appealing to most compared to Dallas.


You're in a hard spot. 3.0 at UT/Vandy/UCLA is bottom 25% or so. Obscure offices don't hire many summers, and the ones they often select are top students at regional schools or those at T13s that want to come back home. A good deal of firms, even in New York, don't recruit at 3.0 from your school. Just mass mail widely, and see what happens.

Yes, I know I'm in a very tough spot. I'm really on a hope and a prayer at the moment. 1L year really kicked my behind. I'm hoping for a better 2L year since I've been seeing a therapist (diagnosed with anxiety and I've been on meds for that). Big law was never my goal, but I really just can't believe I did this bad (I'm still in disbelief). I believe that most of the lawyers at my current 1L Summer job ( in-house) have worked at some of the firms listed. I am going to try to network to them and see if I can at least get an interview. I've been told that I am a strong interviewer by many people, so I'm hoping that they'll help.


Amigo, if big law was never your goal then don't sweat this much to get it. It wasn't what you wanted, it likely isn't meant to be based on your grades, and so you might want to focus your efforts on figuring out what your goal is. Otherwise this is just a distraction from figuring out what your purpose is.


I still wanted to do at least some years in mid-law. I'm hoping I can land something better going into my 3L year, but I just need to find some security for my 2L summer

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby lolwat » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:Huh. You managed to snag an in-house 1L summer spot?

That doesn't sound bad at all.


Yes, as stated I am a very good interviewer ( personable and can easily read people's emotions) so usually if I land the interview I can get it.


Yeah. I meant if you could get an in-house 1L summer gig with your grades, it's definitely not outside the realm of possibility that you can get your foot in the door at a good firm, and it sounds like that's all you need to get in.

I would probably try to use networking as the primary source of trying to land a job you want. Go get coffees and lunches with partners and stuff. That obviously doesn't mean you shouldn't also mass-mail/apply the usual route, but it sounds like you're much better when you actually get to talk to people than on paper.

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Re: Which markets firms are not as grade sensitive?

Postby OutCold » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:19 pm

Best advice in this thread is to apply everywhere and to everything.



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