How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
rpupkin

Platinum
Posts: 5659
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:51 pm

Lettow wrote:OP's larger small law firm of 25~ attorneys isn't going to be axing associates left and right. How many associates do people think actually get fired at places like this?

The majority of associates at small firms don't make partner for various reasons, most of which don't involve being "fired" in the normal sense of that term. You seen naive. A 25% chance of making partner is very high.

User avatar
jchiles

Silver
Posts: 1267
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby jchiles » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:54 pm

Also why shouldn't we factor in voluntary attrition? It's definitely possible better career opportunities could come up for an attorney at a firm like this (both in and outside law) before the firm is willing to make them a partner.

Anonymous User
Posts: 327448
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As someone who works in an NYC biglaw firm, what you are describing is basically how you make partner here if you are already a midlevel. You work for people in your group with the big institutional clients, try to be the go-to person for a subspecialty within the group (this can be either substance or process oriented), and you build a professional identity and reputation such that you generate business, even if from smaller clients or even if it is internal to current clients (such as being the senior associate the midlevel in-house person calls before calling the partner).

The problem is that this is extremely hard to do when billing 2500 a year, supervising juniors to the level of perfection, and trying to have a life. But if you are the rare person who can do all these things AND the macro and micro economics are right, you will have a shot.


My anecdotal experience is that the bolded isn't such a big issue at a smaller firm. My billable hour requirement is 1,500 FWIW.

Also, and having spoken to a lot of my friends who work Big Law in downtown Cleveland, the "attach yourself to a rainmaker" is even more pronounced in a smaller firm. For example, we have a partner retiring on December 31 of this year and he has a niche client/practice that brings in $100,000 per year in receipts. That's a drop in the bucket at an NYC firm, but it's probably 2.5% of revenues at my firm. So if you can attach yourself to one of these clients, you're putting yourself in a great position.



I think it is a matter of scale. Most biglaw firms will have a couple of clients which bring in tens of millions per year and for which they are expected to be "full service" across all practice areas. So you might have a couple partners who are the main relationship partners then a bunch of junior partners in different areas that handle the matters as they arise, with the goal of eventually becoming more of a relationship partner one day. It's the same dynamic, just broader coverage.

IME, my firm makes some effort to try and keep continuity at the midlevel or senior level for certain clients although obviously they care much less about this than at the partner level.

User avatar
2014

Platinum
Posts: 6028
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby 2014 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:52 pm

jchiles wrote:Idk where you all work but you are absolutely deluding yourself if you think a 25% chance of making partner is low.

There are dozens of assumptions baked into the question and the response, depending on which assumptions you make (i.e. do you assume the person survives 7-9 years, are they performing at a level matching or exceeding their peers, is the economy stable/growing, does the firm have institutional clients that justify its existence in perpetuity, etc.) that percentage may be accurate or too low - the main question is pretty unfair.

User avatar
rpupkin

Platinum
Posts: 5659
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:03 pm

2014 wrote:
jchiles wrote:Idk where you all work but you are absolutely deluding yourself if you think a 25% chance of making partner is low.

There are dozens of assumptions baked into the question and the response, depending on which assumptions you make (i.e. do you assume the person survives 7-9 years, are they performing at a level matching or exceeding their peers, is the economy stable/growing, does the firm have institutional clients that justify its existence in perpetuity, etc.) that percentage may be accurate or too low - the main question is pretty unfair.

But the bolded considerations are baked into the chances estimate. Most associates don't survive 7-9 years, and most associates--by definition--don't exceed the performance of their peers.

We're talking about the outlook for someone starting as a first-year associate. Sure, if you assume that a bunch of key variables will break the associate's way over the years, then partnership chances might look quite high. It's like some of you are saying this: "If the associate works hard, likes the work, is better than his peers, and stays for 7 years, then I think his chances might be better than 25%." Do you not understand why that's kind of silly?

User avatar
nealric

Moderator
Posts: 2937
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:53 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby nealric » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:07 pm

lolwat wrote:Firms vary too much to know.
Plus, some of them fucking change over time.
I'm at a small firm and used to think I had a shot here if I stayed and did awesome work for 6-7 years for them. Before you laugh, that was actually realistic and the type of vibe the partners gave.
Then over the years, the firm morphed, hired a bunch of "senior associates," and now it's pretty clear partnership is going to those who are both "senior" enough and can bring in business. Lowly peeps like me will have to wait another 10 years or so.

Really just something you have to feel out.


Yes. Change is a big potential component. A few examples:

A friend of mine started at a small firm with about 20 attorneys. A year before he was up for partner, the firm got bought out by a biglaw firm. He might have been on great track for partner at the small firm, but his partnership prospects were suddenly being decided by a group of people he had barely met in a far-away office rather than the people he'd been working for over the last 10 years.

Another: family member started at a blue chip firm many years ago back when it was assumed that you'd make partner if you stuck around 8 years. Things changed and a massive recession hit right during his partnership year. Nobody made partner that year, but it was still the era where being passed over for partner was the kiss of death. Fortunately, he was able to lateral to a smaller firm as a partner.

Or another hypothetical: suppose you specialize in specific kind of case in a specific jurisdiction. BAM- an appellate or supreme court decides that jurisdiction is no longer appropriate for that type of case. (I'm thinking of the recent decision on Eastern District of Texas patent litigation). Firm might have a really hard time making someone partner who had made their career in such cases.

Moral of the story- it's just not all that helpful to obsess over. All you can do is make yourself as valuable as possible and develop skills that are transferable to either clients or another setting. The question is not "Can I make partner at this firm?", but "Can I start building a lasting career at this firm?"
Last edited by nealric on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rpupkin

Platinum
Posts: 5659
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:16 pm

nealric wrote:Moral of the story- it's just not all that helpful to obsess over. All you can do is make yourself as valuable as possible and develop skills that are transferable to either clients or another setting. The question is not "Can I make partner at this firm?", but "Can I start building a lasting career at this firm?"

Completely agree with this.

User avatar
2014

Platinum
Posts: 6028
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby 2014 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:23 pm

rpupkin wrote:
2014 wrote:
jchiles wrote:Idk where you all work but you are absolutely deluding yourself if you think a 25% chance of making partner is low.

There are dozens of assumptions baked into the question and the response, depending on which assumptions you make (i.e. do you assume the person survives 7-9 years, are they performing at a level matching or exceeding their peers, is the economy stable/growing, does the firm have institutional clients that justify its existence in perpetuity, etc.) that percentage may be accurate or too low - the main question is pretty unfair.

But the bolded considerations are baked into the chances estimate. Most associates don't survive 7-9 years, and most associates--by definition--don't exceed the performance of their peers.

We're talking about the outlook for someone starting as a first-year associate. Sure, if you assume that a bunch of key variables will break the associate's way over the years, then partnership chances might look quite high. It's like some of you are saying this: "If the associate works hard, likes the work, is better than his peers, and stays for 7 years, then I think his chances might be better than 25%." Do you not understand why that's kind of silly?


I was not clear but i'm on your side here. My point was the percentage is whatever you want it to be depending on how many assumptions you make so someone coming in hard against you saying your 25% is stupid is picking a fight against assumptions you may or may not have made.

As there's no good source for data which separates attrition because (a) forced out, (b) quit on own volition but with firm's encouragement/support and (c) quit despite partner potential, people tend to aggregate all three and just assume that none of those people could make partner which isn't true. The best you can really do is say "If you really want to make it and are willing to put in the requisite effort your odds aren't bad but you probably don't want to make it".

User avatar
elendinel

Silver
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby elendinel » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:18 pm

Lettow wrote:The only way that number couldn't be considered low is if it includes all attrition, including those who just don't like private practice and decided to leave (rather than get fired). Or people have a certain type of small law firm in mind, like the one-or-two partner firm that always seems to employ a harem of 1-2 year rookies.

OP's larger small law firm of 25~ attorneys isn't going to be axing associates left and right. How many associates do people think actually get fired at places like this?


Firms don't generally have to deal with low partnership rates with mass firings. Plenty of people can stay at a firm with a "Special Counsel" title, which puts them above an associate position but still doesn't make them partner. Some may become career senior associates and be fine with that if they're at a firm that doesn't axe them for not being on the partner track anymore. Some associates will lateral out on their own accord to another firm when it doesn't seem like partnership is likely, and some other associate (who likely is already considered partnership/SC material) will be hired in their place. Or a swath of associates will leave, and then the firm will hire a partner who is coming with a few low-year associates, and it all still balances out. Whatever happens, a firm isn't realistically going to lose out on labor if less than 25% of its associates can make partner.

Also just from a business standpoint, a firm and its partners can't make a ton of money if half its attorneys are partners. Whether the firm is big or small, they're going to have an interest in keeping the number of new partners as low as possible without completely removing associates' hopes that they may become partner. From that perspective, a 25% chance of making partner may seem less crazy.

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am

rpupkin wrote:
Lettow wrote:OP's larger small law firm of 25~ attorneys isn't going to be axing associates left and right. How many associates do people think actually get fired at places like this?

The majority of associates at small firms don't make partner for various reasons, most of which don't involve being "fired" in the normal sense of that term. You seen naive. A 25% chance of making partner is very high.


It's become clear we're discussing two different things; I'm not including voluntary attrition, while you're including it. I'm not including voluntary attrition because I took OP's question to contain an implicit presumption that he would actually work there for 6-7 years without up and quitting on his own.

jchiles wrote:Also why shouldn't we factor in voluntary attrition? It's definitely possible better career opportunities could come up for an attorney at a firm like this (both in and outside law) before the firm is willing to make them a partner.


Because voluntary attrition means the associate has personal reasons for leaving. Many of those personal reasons are, of course, personal and likely would not apply to OP's situation. Other personal reasons, such as burning out after three years, might apply to OP, but if we're going to take things like that into consideration then that risks opening a floodgate. OP could literally die before he makes partnership, but no one in this thread is checking death rate statistics to see if that "25%" should be lowered by the appropriate amount to include OP's chance of death.

rpupkin wrote:We're talking about the outlook for someone starting as a first-year associate. Sure, if you assume that a bunch of key variables will break the associate's way over the years, then partnership chances might look quite high. It's like some of you are saying this: "If the associate works hard, likes the work, is better than his peers, and stays for 7 years, then I think his chances might be better than 25%." Do you not understand why that's kind of silly?


You're misstating things. It's more like this: "If the associate/OP works at the firm, what are the chances of the law firm making him partner?" You don't need to include "works hard," "likes the work," "is better than his peers," because those are all things we know nothing about. OP question is essentially requiring us to assume that he will stay at the law firm during partner track and won't leave. That's why it's inappropriate to include voluntary attrition rate in this discussion, and it's especially inappropriate to include voluntary attrition in a random percentage number you came up with without even telling anyone you're including it!

User avatar
PeanutsNJam

Gold
Posts: 4577
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:01 am

This small firm hires ~2 associates per year. What's the rate people make partner? If it's less than 1 every 2 years, then it's <25%.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse

Diamond
Posts: 29306
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:07 am

Voluntary attrition is frequently as much a function of the system as it is about personal choices - partnership planning is based on the assumption that voluntary attrition will occur. The actual rates may be different in different kinds of firms but it still makes sense to include it. Even people who think they plan to stay the course frequently leave voluntarily.

What do you think would be more accurate range than >0-25%?

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:15 am

elendinel wrote:
Lettow wrote:The only way that number couldn't be considered low is if it includes all attrition, including those who just don't like private practice and decided to leave (rather than get fired). Or people have a certain type of small law firm in mind, like the one-or-two partner firm that always seems to employ a harem of 1-2 year rookies.

OP's larger small law firm of 25~ attorneys isn't going to be axing associates left and right. How many associates do people think actually get fired at places like this?


Firms don't generally have to deal with low partnership rates with mass firings. Plenty of people can stay at a firm with a "Special Counsel" title, which puts them above an associate position but still doesn't make them partner. Some may become career senior associates and be fine with that if they're at a firm that doesn't axe them for not being on the partner track anymore. Some associates will lateral out on their own accord to another firm when it doesn't seem like partnership is likely, and some other associate (who likely is already considered partnership/SC material) will be hired in their place. Or a swath of associates will leave, and then the firm will hire a partner who is coming with a few low-year associates, and it all still balances out.


Do you know of many law firms with 20~ attorneys that use "special counsel" titles in a way that it is as you explained a consolation prize for associates who got turned down for partner? I've only ever seen special counsel titles reserved for people who (1) voluntarily requested it, say for working from home, or (2) were retired/retiring.

Whatever happens, a firm isn't realistically going to lose out on labor if less than 25% of its associates can make partner.


I don't think anyone in this thread argued firms risked losing labor if they didn't promote associates.

Also just from a business standpoint, a firm and its partners can't make a ton of money if half its attorneys are partners. Whether the firm is big or small, they're going to have an interest in keeping the number of new partners as low as possible without completely removing associates' hopes that they may become partner. From that perspective, a 25% chance of making partner may seem less crazy.


This is all going to depend on how the firm is structured and the circumstances relating to that firm. It's difficult making a blanket statement like the one you're making, because there are firms that make a ton of money and half of its attorneys are in fact partners. I agree that law firms can have a general hiring strategy of maintaining a partner-associate ratio, but I don't see how that's particularly relevant in this conversation.

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:34 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Voluntary attrition is frequently as much a function of the system as it is about personal choices - partnership planning is based on the assumption that voluntary attrition will occur. The actual rates may be different in different kinds of firms but it still makes sense to include it. Even people who think they plan to stay the course frequently leave voluntarily.

What do you think would be more accurate range than >0-25%?


OK.

OP asked a question of whether he should go government or law firm. He wanted to know the likelihood this law firm would make him partner. His post included no reference to or hint of voluntary attrition. In fact, he explicitly envisioned staying at the firm for ten years down the line.
OP wrote:My question is, what are the chances of making partner at a firm like this? It only has some 7 associates, so it's very partner heavy. Which makes me believe I'd have a good shot at making partner some 10 years down the line, which would pay more than any salary cap the government could give me, even though I wouldn't know what those numbers while I can look up what the government would pay an Attorney V.


We then have people coming in and saying, "The law firm will make you partner -- 0 to 25% chance." Later, people concede this includes voluntary attrition. Voluntary attrition, however, was never part of the equation. So it very much seemed like people were saying, "bro, you only got a 1/4 chance this law firm ever makes you partner." Nobody could read those initial posts and reach any other conclusion. No reference of voluntary attrition discussed until after the 25% figure was attacked.

And now voluntary attrition is the focus of everyone's attention. FFS.

What do you think would be more accurate range than >0-25%?


I wouldn't put down a percentage. I'd say OP has a good chance of making partner if he does the work. I think that's true pretty much everywhere in the United States, except biglaw and firms with few partners.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse

Diamond
Posts: 29306
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:41 am

I think most people assume you would include voluntary attrition, so they didn't need to mention it? You seem to be the only person not including it. Again, voluntary is a sort of misleading term since it's built into the hiring model. No firm hires literally exactly only the number of people they envision making partner 7 years down the road or whatever - if it's a big firm they know people will leave, if it's a a small firm they're unlikely to know what that number will be.

I get that small firms are more likely to want to hire people with the expectation that they'll stick around, but that doesn't translate directly into likelihood of making partner, as small firms are arguably more drastically affected by relatively small changes. The mid/small firm (very respectable/respected in its small market) I worked for in 2010 had about 25 attorneys and I think 9-11 partners. Today they have about 9 attorneys total and 2 partners. Whatever partnership expectations they had for an associate hired in 2010 don't mean anything now.

And what exactly is "a good chance"? How is that more helpful than what rpupkin said?

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:56 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think most people assume you would include voluntary attrition, so they didn't need to mention it?


When the issue presented is what are the chances law firm makes me partner, it's not a natural assumption to include voluntary attrition. The law firm's decision to make OP a partner is what is being asked. Voluntary attrition is the opposite in that it little to no bearing on the law firm and has (almost) everything to do with the associate. (I realize "law firm culture" could be such that it has an impact on voluntary attrition. The indirect effect of law firm culture still, however, doesn't go to the law firm's decision-making.)

And what exactly is "a good chance"? How is that more helpful than what rpupkin said?


A good chance. Rpupkin implied a bad/low chance of partnership by using a range that included 0% chance of partnership - 25% chance of partnership.

RaceJudicata

Gold
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:51 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:03 am

Lettow wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think most people assume you would include voluntary attrition, so they didn't need to mention it?


When the issue presented is what are the chances law firm makes me partner, it's not a natural assumption to include voluntary attrition. The law firm's decision to make OP a partner is what is being asked. Voluntary attrition is the opposite in that it little to no bearing on the law firm and has (almost) everything to do with the associate. (I realize "law firm culture" could be such that it has an impact on voluntary attrition. The indirect effect of law firm culture still, however, doesn't go to the law firm's decision-making.)

And what exactly is "a good chance"? How is that more helpful than what rpupkin said?


A good chance. Rpupkin implied a bad/low chance of partnership by using a range that included 0% chance of partnership - 25% chance of partnership.


How do you not understand that a 25% chance (or even a 10-20% chance) at partnership -- on day 0 -- before you have done a thing -- is a VERY high percentage?

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse

Diamond
Posts: 29306
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:06 am

Lettow wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think most people assume you would include voluntary attrition, so they didn't need to mention it?


When the issue presented is what are the chances law firm makes me partner, it's not a natural assumption to include voluntary attrition. The law firm's decision to make OP a partner is what is being asked. Voluntary attrition is the opposite in that it little to no bearing on the law firm and has (almost) everything to do with the associate. (I realize "law firm culture" could be such that it has an impact on voluntary attrition. The indirect effect of law firm culture still, however, doesn't go to the law firm's decision-making.)

And what exactly is "a good chance"? How is that more helpful than what rpupkin said?


A good chance. Rpupkin implied a bad/low chance of partnership by using a range that included 0% chance of partnership - 25% chance of partnership.

So are you saying that firms don't take voluntary attrition into account on their end? You're not addressing my argument that voluntary attrition is a feature, not a bug.

Or to put this another way, people are answering the question "what are the chances I become partner" and you're answering the question "what are the chances this law firm will choose to make me partner." They're not exactly the same thing.

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:12 am

RaceJudicata wrote:How do you not understand that a 25% chance (or even a 10-20% chance) at partnership -- on day 0 -- before you have done a thing -- is a VERY high percentage?


It shouldn't matter whether it's day 0 or day 365.

Also, as mentioned earlier, 25% including voluntary attrition is better than 25% not including voluntary attrition -- Rpupkin didn't say in his initial post that he was including voluntary attrition in his 25% figure. You're also ignoring the 0% chance of partnership, which was absolutely ridiculous given how little information was known. (So, 0% chance of partnership including voluntary attrition? :lol: )

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse

Diamond
Posts: 29306
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:28 am

He didn't say 0%. He said close to 0%.

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:32 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:So are you saying that firms don't take voluntary attrition into account on their end? You're not addressing my argument that voluntary attrition is a feature, not a bug.

Or to put this another way, people are answering the question "what are the chances I become partner" and you're answering the question "what are the chances this law firm will choose to make me partner." They're not exactly the same thing.


To your first question, I didn't see the relevance to our discussion, so I didn't respond to it.

To your second, that seems like a slight mischaracterization. The first mischaracterization is the that twice now you've characterized this thread as being only two groups: everyone else and me. There are more groups than this. Second, we're [b]both[/I] arguing "what are the chances I become partner." But you're correct that there are different questions being answered.

My stance is that OP wants the answer to assume he actually sticks it out at the law firm and doesn't cut and run because he doesn't want to work with clients or some other highly subjective reason. This is reasonable to the question originally asked -- should I join law firm (will they make me partner?) or city government job.

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:34 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:He didn't say 0%. He said close to 0%.


Okay.

You're also ignoring the close to 0% chance of partnership, which was absolutely ridiculous given how little information was known. (So, close to 0% chance of partnership including voluntary attrition? :lol: )

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse

Diamond
Posts: 29306
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:39 am

How is the degree to which a firm expects associates to leave before coming up for partner not relevant to their expectations and hiring choices?

Also, I don't think you can answer entirely based on assuming someone sticks it out, because they can't know the likelihood of sticking it out at this point in the game. It's like saying "what are my chances of making partner assuming I check all the partnership boxes," and ignoring how easy/hard it is actually to check those boxes.

I don't think close to 0% is laughable. There are certainly firms that hire associates not expecting to make them partners. We can't tell if this firm is one of those, but it's not somehow ridiculous.

Lettow

New
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:51 am

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby Lettow » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:47 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:How is the degree to which a firm expects associates to leave before coming up for partner not relevant to their expectations and hiring choices?

Also, I don't think you can answer entirely based on assuming someone sticks it out, because they can't know the likelihood of sticking it out at this point in the game. It's like saying "what are my chances of making partner assuming I check all the partnership boxes," and ignoring how easy/hard it is actually to check those boxes.

I don't think close to 0% is laughable. There are certainly firms that hire associates not expecting to make them partners. We can't tell if this firm is one of those, but it's not somehow ridiculous.


This isn't about hiring choices. In this scenario, OP is already in. Any hiring decisions based on factoring in voluntary attrition is irrelevant in this phase. Or am I not understanding your point?

Yes, you can't know the likelihood of sticking it out, but you can have the arrogance of youth. If you think you're going to stick it out and make a post implying such (and not explicitly referencing voluntary attrition), and then the responses you receive discuss your chances without explicitly referencing voluntary attrition, then the original poster is led astray if he's never told that 25% includes voluntary attrition.

Yes, there are certainly firms that hire associates not expecting them to make partners. Do you think this is true of the average 20+ attorney law firm that has more partners to associates?

lolwat

Silver
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:30 pm

Re: How reasonable is it to to think you can make partner?

Postby lolwat » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:50 am

All factors considered (including voluntary attrition), anywhere from "close to 0%" to "25%" for partnership is well within a reasonable ballpark to consider as a general matter. Quite obviously where in that range, or if the % should be higher, depends on more facts that we don't have. Doesn't mean giving a reasonable ballpark is ridiculous.

At the vast majority of firms (yes even small ones), you need the stars to align to make partner. Just sticking it out and doing good work still isn't going to cut it by any means.



Return to “Legal Employment�

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.