People telling others to mass mail already

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UVA2B

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby UVA2B » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How does this apply to people who have 1L SAs? Any advice on if we should MM anyway or wait to see if we get return offers?


I'm only sharing my approach, so I could be way off here, but MM does change some when you're trying to get an offer to return to a 1L SA. If the firm doesn't offer upon completion of the 1L SA, then absolutely MM now. But if you have a shot at getting an offer to return, and you like the firm, focus more on getting that offer than finding another firm.

I am doing prep work now for MM (cover letters, resume polishing, etc.), but since I can't really go on interviews with other firms right now, my focus is giving myself a safety net going into hiring season by having an offer to return already in hand.

I think the calculus also changes at least a bit if you're in a market you absolutely do not want for your 1L SA (although I'd question the wisdom in taking a 1L SA in a market you know you don't want to begin with), or you're really targeting a different market heavily than the market you're currently in, but no matter what your focus should be on getting an offer from the current firm, if only to remove the stress of worrying about striking out.

But, like I said, I could be going about this all wrong.

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby candidlatke » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:32 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How does this apply to people who have 1L SAs? Any advice on if we should MM anyway or wait to see if we get return offers?


I'm only sharing my approach, so I could be way off here, but MM does change some when you're trying to get an offer to return to a 1L SA. If the firm doesn't offer upon completion of the 1L SA, then absolutely MM now. But if you have a shot at getting an offer to return, and you like the firm, focus more on getting that offer than finding another firm.

I am doing prep work now for MM (cover letters, resume polishing, etc.), but since I can't really go on interviews with other firms right now, my focus is giving myself a safety net going into hiring season by having an offer to return already in hand.

I think the calculus also changes at least a bit if you're in a market you absolutely do not want for your 1L SA (although I'd question the wisdom in taking a 1L SA in a market you know you don't want to begin with), or you're really targeting a different market heavily than the market you're currently in, but no matter what your focus should be on getting an offer from the current firm, if only to remove the stress of worrying about striking out.

But, like I said, I could be going about this all wrong.


does a 1L SA preclude you from interviewing? or are you just waiting on grades still

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Re: People telling other stuff to mass mail already

Postby dabigchina » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:11 pm

GoneSouth wrote:
grades?? wrote:Yes you should be mass mailing already, but without second semester grades you really can't. You need to have your resume polished, cover letter perfected, etc so the moment you get your gpa, you can input it into your resume and start mailing. Let me be very clear- lots of firm will start interviewing people this month, and some will get offers. Multiple top firms filled their classes last year weeks before OCI.

Edit:

So heres a list:

Make sure resume and all materials is ready to go. Maybe have resumes with different addresses when targeting different markets.

Start creating lists or an excel spreadsheet for all the firms in all the markets. Input email addresses to send apps.

email attorneys at the firm you have some connection with, like alumni from your law school to see if they can answer some questions.

All stuff to be doing while waiting for grades.


Lol I don't know what you're considering a "top firm" but at least one person from my school ended up at every V20 firm from OCI.

In general, I agree that pre OCI hiring has become a much larger part of the equation. However, weird fear mongering is not really helpful. I don't know of any V20 that didn't take anyone from my school during OCI. To be fair, I don't think we go to the same school. I'm at one of the firms that has arguably been most aggressive with pre OCI interviews and the majority of my class got their positions through OCI.

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UVA2B

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby UVA2B » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:49 am

candidlatke wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How does this apply to people who have 1L SAs? Any advice on if we should MM anyway or wait to see if we get return offers?


I'm only sharing my approach, so I could be way off here, but MM does change some when you're trying to get an offer to return to a 1L SA. If the firm doesn't offer upon completion of the 1L SA, then absolutely MM now. But if you have a shot at getting an offer to return, and you like the firm, focus more on getting that offer than finding another firm.

I am doing prep work now for MM (cover letters, resume polishing, etc.), but since I can't really go on interviews with other firms right now, my focus is giving myself a safety net going into hiring season by having an offer to return already in hand.

I think the calculus also changes at least a bit if you're in a market you absolutely do not want for your 1L SA (although I'd question the wisdom in taking a 1L SA in a market you know you don't want to begin with), or you're really targeting a different market heavily than the market you're currently in, but no matter what your focus should be on getting an offer from the current firm, if only to remove the stress of worrying about striking out.

But, like I said, I could be going about this all wrong.


does a 1L SA preclude you from interviewing? or are you just waiting on grades still


Pretty much. Even if you can do the screener interview via phone, there's just not a great way to escape from the office for half a day to do CBs if/when you get them without your current firm becoming aware of it. It's just too risky to be worth it when you're busy trying to get an offer.

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby WaitersIsland » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:42 pm

Is there a consensus on whether or not to mass mail firms in non-NYC/DC/LA markets, such as Chicago or Texas?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby favabeansoup » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:02 pm

WaitersIsland wrote:Is there a consensus on whether or not to mass mail firms in non-NYC/DC/LA markets, such as Chicago or Texas?


Yes you should massmail those markets as well, they operate on a similar basis.

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:46 am

Near the bottom of my class at CCN - probably bottom 15-20%. I should be mass mailing like crazy right? My OCS discourages it so I can't imagine getting helpful advice from them.

Do I mail the firms I intend on bidding at OCI? Is there merit to the worry that they will reject me immediately because of my grades and this will somehow later impact my OCI prospects with that firm because they've already said no?

I'm exceptional in interviews (I know everyone thinks this, but really) and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize OCI interviews where the interviewer is forced to give me a chance and address me seriously.

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do_me_a_favor

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby do_me_a_favor » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:15 am

when mass mailing you folks just send (1) cover w/ resume in 1 doc (2) grade transcript and attach + email those files to the recruitnig contact on NALP?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby eastcoast_iub » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:37 am

do_me_a_favor wrote:when mass mailing you folks just send (1) cover w/ resume in 1 doc (2) grade transcript and attach + email those files to the recruitnig contact on NALP?


I always included my cover note in the body of the e-mail and then my resume and transcript together as one PDF attachment. Makes it easier for recruiting to quickly review. I got a lot of callbacks through MM, who knows how much the formatting helped but considering the amount of resumes they are receiving might as well make it as convenient as possible for them.

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Mullens » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:Near the bottom of my class at CCN - probably bottom 15-20%. I should be mass mailing like crazy right? My OCS discourages it so I can't imagine getting helpful advice from them.

Do I mail the firms I intend on bidding at OCI? Is there merit to the worry that they will reject me immediately because of my grades and this will somehow later impact my OCI prospects with that firm because they've already said no?

I'm exceptional in interviews (I know everyone thinks this, but really) and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize OCI interviews where the interviewer is forced to give me a chance and address me seriously.


So this is a situation where it might make more sense to wait until OCI. Especially if your school's OCI is pure lottery and grade-blind until the interview. If you send out all your stuff now, then firms might put you in the reject pile before you even get a chance to do a screener at OCI. You might still get an OCI screener from the lottery, but you might be marked as a "no" in their system before your interview.

I think it is for people like you that career services offices warn against massmailing before OCI and how it can impact your chances.

I went through OCI two years ago though, in the year when firms were just testing the pre-OCI hiring system, so someone in your situation from last year might have better insight.

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby pterodactyls » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:01 pm

Mullens wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Near the bottom of my class at CCN - probably bottom 15-20%. I should be mass mailing like crazy right? My OCS discourages it so I can't imagine getting helpful advice from them.

Do I mail the firms I intend on bidding at OCI? Is there merit to the worry that they will reject me immediately because of my grades and this will somehow later impact my OCI prospects with that firm because they've already said no?

I'm exceptional in interviews (I know everyone thinks this, but really) and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize OCI interviews where the interviewer is forced to give me a chance and address me seriously.


So this is a situation where it might make more sense to wait until OCI. Especially if your school's OCI is pure lottery and grade-blind until the interview. If you send out all your stuff now, then firms might put you in the reject pile before you even get a chance to do a screener at OCI. You might still get an OCI screener from the lottery, but you might be marked as a "no" in their system before your interview.

I think it is for people like you that career services offices warn against massmailing before OCI and how it can impact your chances.

I went through OCI two years ago though, in the year when firms were just testing the pre-OCI hiring system, so someone in your situation from last year might have better insight.


Thanks for the info, this is helpful.

Can anyone expand on this? I'm median-ish at a T14 with a lottery OCI. Will applying to a firm before OCI really put me in a permanent reject pile? I mean, if I get them in the lottery they have to interview me anyway. If they don't know my grades until the moment of the interview, does that really provide a major advantage? Is this worth sacrificing the (slim) chance of pre-OCI from MM?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:54 pm

Mullens wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Near the bottom of my class at CCN - probably bottom 15-20%. I should be mass mailing like crazy right? My OCS discourages it so I can't imagine getting helpful advice from them.

Do I mail the firms I intend on bidding at OCI? Is there merit to the worry that they will reject me immediately because of my grades and this will somehow later impact my OCI prospects with that firm because they've already said no?

I'm exceptional in interviews (I know everyone thinks this, but really) and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize OCI interviews where the interviewer is forced to give me a chance and address me seriously.


So this is a situation where it might make more sense to wait until OCI. Especially if your school's OCI is pure lottery and grade-blind until the interview. If you send out all your stuff now, then firms might put you in the reject pile before you even get a chance to do a screener at OCI. You might still get an OCI screener from the lottery, but you might be marked as a "no" in their system before your interview.

I think it is for people like you that career services offices warn against massmailing before OCI and how it can impact your chances.

I went through OCI two years ago though, in the year when firms were just testing the pre-OCI hiring system, so someone in your situation from last year might have better insight.


That makes sense. Its exactly what I was worried about. I may just mail firms I didn't plan on bidding/didn't get through the lottery.

Anyone else have any other insight?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby WalkingContradiction » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:49 pm

Does anyone actually have names of the firms that are loading up their classes in NY and D.C. through pre-OCI interviews?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby mbpats7 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:23 pm

How long is too long for a MM cover letter?

Currently have three paragraphs. P1 and P3 are just your basic and intro closing paragraphs, but my P2 is a body paragraph describing some relevant WE and current 1L summer internship. Is it even necessary to describe work experience? Especially, because this letter won't likely be read very closely?

grades??

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby grades?? » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:39 pm

WalkingContradiction wrote:Does anyone actually have names of the firms that are loading up their classes in NY and D.C. through pre-OCI interviews?


pmed

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:22 pm

So far I have two full interviews scheduled with V20 firms, thanks to following the sage advice of TLS and mailing pre-OCI. It works! (Granted, stats are pretty favorable, top 10% at T13). I have a couple questions for those who have received pre-OCI offers (or otherwise have knowledge of the process) which might be premature, since I could very easily get no offers, but I'd like to be prepared ...

1) Do most firms keep offers open long enough that you can still go to OCI and weigh your options, or do you generally have to make a call before that? I would be happy at either of the firms I have interviews at, but neither is one of my top 3 choices and I would at least like a shot at interviewing for my top choices.

2) In either case, is it advisable/effective to use an offer as leverage to get a pre-OCI interview with another firm?

Thanks in advance!

grades??

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby grades?? » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So far I have two full interviews scheduled with V20 firms, thanks to following the sage advice of TLS and mailing pre-OCI. It works! (Granted, stats are pretty favorable, top 10% at T13). I have a couple questions for those who have received pre-OCI offers (or otherwise have knowledge of the process) which might be premature, since I could very easily get no offers, but I'd like to be prepared ...

1) Do most firms keep offers open long enough that you can still go to OCI and weigh your options, or do you generally have to make a call before that? I would be happy at either of the firms I have interviews at, but neither is one of my top 3 choices and I would at least like a shot at interviewing for my top choices.

2) In either case, is it advisable/effective to use an offer as leverage to get a pre-OCI interview with another firm?

Thanks in advance!


Usually the pre-oci offers last year were good through oci. Regardless, the firm has to give you 28 days if I remember per NALP rules to decide. As far as using it as leverage- I was able to successfully do that, but I did it through meeting partners who were alums. So I got some offers, then I would email a partner at a firm I was thinking about asking to grab lunch or coffee, etc. Then I would ask questions about the firm and eventually if the conversation went well, i would drop that I had another offer and if they had any advice. If they like you, they will make a call for you. Worked for me.

Edit: I am glad you listened to the advice, and let this be a note to others. Last year, at least in my major-non NYC market, the first offers went out around the end of June. The fact you may have two in mid june speaks to how rapidly the firms are continuing last year's trend. I know my firm has decided to not attend oci anymore apparently because there is no need when the class gets filled in July.

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pterodactyls

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby pterodactyls » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:14 pm

grades?? wrote:
WalkingContradiction wrote:Does anyone actually have names of the firms that are loading up their classes in NY and D.C. through pre-OCI interviews?


pmed


Can someone fill me in too please? :shock:

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:18 pm

pterodactyls wrote:
grades?? wrote:
WalkingContradiction wrote:Does anyone actually have names of the firms that are loading up their classes in NY and D.C. through pre-OCI interviews?


pmed


Can someone fill me in too please? :shock:


Ditto....

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby lurker816 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
pterodactyls wrote:
grades?? wrote:
WalkingContradiction wrote:Does anyone actually have names of the firms that are loading up their classes in NY and D.C. through pre-OCI interviews?


pmed


Can someone fill me in too please? :shock:


Ditto....


this was me accidental anon sorry!!

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby BholeTransfer » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:36 pm

lurker816 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
pterodactyls wrote:
grades?? wrote:
WalkingContradiction wrote:Does anyone actually have names of the firms that are loading up their classes in NY and D.C. through pre-OCI interviews?


pmed


Can someone fill me in too please? :shock:


Ditto....


this was me accidental anon sorry!!


I would also appreciate this information. Thanks!

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby tlsfunfun » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:39 pm

Another bottom third (probably) at CCN. Not sure if I should MM or not - I feel like I should be hustling like crazy, but at the same time I don't want interviewers to already have a big X on my resume at OCI. Also not in the market I will be targeting, although my work is so lax that if necessary I could probably take the day off and go there.
Also, I had interviewed (CB) for an 1L SA position but didn't get it - is it worth MMing or bidding the firm at OCI?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:08 pm

tlsfunfun wrote:Another bottom third (probably) at CCN. Not sure if I should MM or not - I feel like I should be hustling like crazy, but at the same time I don't want interviewers to already have a big X on my resume at OCI. Also not in the market I will be targeting, although my work is so lax that if necessary I could probably take the day off and go there.
Also, I had interviewed (CB) for an 1L SA position but didn't get it - is it worth MMing or bidding the firm at OCI?


Anon from a few posts back. Can't speak to the first part of your question, but it is certainly worth contacting the firm where you had a CB for the 1L SA position. One of the firms where I have a pre-OCI interview is a firm that rejected me after a CB for a 1L position. 1L positions are hard to come by.

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:59 pm

Question: If I'm 3.5-level from MVP (well above median but nothing special), is it worth mass mailing early and revealing my grades to firms? I don't know if my grades are good enough to disclose at this stage before I get the opportunity to interview. Really I'm not even sure if my grades are even good enough to score an interview at this stage as I'm not interning in a market I'd like to work in.

I have some work experience and plenty of experience interviewing, so OCI may be the best place for me, but based on the talk ITT I'm worried about the class filling up before I even get a chance. What's the best move for early mass mailing for someone in my situation, with good but not spectacular grades?

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Re: People telling others to mass mail already

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Question: If I'm 3.5-level from MVP (well above median but nothing special), is it worth mass mailing early and revealing my grades to firms? I don't know if my grades are good enough to disclose at this stage before I get the opportunity to interview. Really I'm not even sure if my grades are even good enough to score an interview at this stage as I'm not interning in a market I'd like to work in.

I have some work experience and plenty of experience interviewing, so OCI may be the best place for me, but based on the talk ITT I'm worried about the class filling up before I even get a chance. What's the best move for early mass mailing for someone in my situation, with good but not spectacular grades?


You are selling yourself WAY short. You're in the top 25% of your class -- which is definitely spectacular. I'm at one of DCN and I had a friend with a 3.5 get a pre-OCI V5 callback through mass mailing.



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