Michigan OCI 2017

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:15 pm

Anyone want to critique my bid list? Concerned I'm being too aggressive.

3.5+ GPA, 2 years of finance WE, significant extracurriculars in UG. Targeting Chicago with serious other midwest ties; NYC as backup.

    1. Milbank (NYC)
    2. Jenner (CHI)
    3. Sidley (NYC)
    4. Weil (NYC)
    5. Katten (CHI)
    6. Sidley (CHI)
    7. Proskauer (NYC)
    8. Paul Hastings (CHI)
    9. Debevoise (NYC)
    10. Latham (NYC)
    11. Simpson Thacher (NYC)
    12. Gibson (NYC)
    13. Fried Frank (NYC)
    14. Cooley (NYC)
    15. Jones Day (CHI)
    16. Mayer Brown (CHI)
    17. Hogan Lovells (NYC)
    18. Winston & Strawn (CHI)
    19. Kirkland (CHI)
    20. Akin Gump (DC)
    21. Davis Polk (NYC)
    22. Ropes (NYC)
    23. McDermott Will & Emery (CHI)
    24. Cadwalader (NYC)
    25. Foley (CHI)
    26. WilmerHale (NYC)
    27. Allen & Overy (NYC)
    28. Shearman & Sterling (NYC)
    29. Cleary (NYC)
    30. Skadden (CHI)

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone want to critique my bid list? Concerned I'm being too aggressive.

3.5+ GPA, 2 years of finance WE, significant extracurriculars in UG. Targeting Chicago with serious other midwest ties; NYC as backup.

    1. Milbank (NYC)
    2. Jenner (CHI)
    3. Sidley (NYC)
    4. Weil (NYC)
    5. Katten (CHI)
    6. Sidley (CHI)
    7. Proskauer (NYC)
    8. Paul Hastings (CHI)
    9. Debevoise (NYC)
    10. Latham (NYC)
    11. Simpson Thacher (NYC)
    12. Gibson (NYC)
    13. Fried Frank (NYC)
    14. Cooley (NYC)
    15. Jones Day (CHI)
    16. Mayer Brown (CHI)
    17. Hogan Lovells (NYC)
    18. Winston & Strawn (CHI)
    19. Kirkland (CHI)
    20. Akin Gump (DC)
    21. Davis Polk (NYC)
    22. Ropes (NYC)
    23. McDermott Will & Emery (CHI)
    24. Cadwalader (NYC)
    25. Foley (CHI)
    26. WilmerHale (NYC)
    27. Allen & Overy (NYC)
    28. Shearman & Sterling (NYC)
    29. Cleary (NYC)
    30. Skadden (CHI)


Gibson and Latham can probably be ranked quite a bit lower. They hire large summer classes and would likely interview you even if you didn't get them through bidding. I would move Simpson down under a similar theory. I would move Proskauer up a little; the last two years they had a pretty high rate of interest and missed bids. How many slots does Jenner have? #2 seems high to me.

GPA-wise, I think Skadden CHI, K&E CHI, and Jones Day CHI might be stretches, unless you're closer to 3.6x than 3.5x. Either way you'd be like a 25th percentile GPA hire... which is possible, but not something I'd bet on. The same goes for Cleary.

Probably relevant: Katten CHI no-offered several in their summer class three years ago. They no-offered one out of seven last year. The no-offers and the generally small class would personally cause me to keep them off my bid list entirely.

Overall, I agree that you're being a tad aggressive. Instead of like 7 GPA reaches, make it like 5-6 and cut one.

Also, the CHI heavy strategy is not advised without some Chicago ties. You can get it, but I wouldn't sell out hard for it... midwest ties and Chicago ties are not the same thing.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:52 pm

That last response was really great! Can you critique? I'm also a bit afraid of being too aggressive.

I posted a bit earlier, but to recap: 3.56 GPA, 2 years legal/political WE, strong Bay Area ties, NYC as backup.

1. MoFo (SF)
2. Cooley (SF)
3. O'Melveny (SF)
4. Paul Hastings (SF)
5. Weil (NY)
6. Gibson (SF)
7. Hogan Lovells (NY)
8. Paul Weiss (NY)
9. Willkie (NY)
10. Latham (NY)
11. Proskauer (NY)
12. Clifford Chance (NY)
13. Wilson Sonsini (Palo Alto)
14. Davis Polk (NY)
15. Debevoise (NY)
16. Cleary (NY)
17. Simpson (NY)
18. Ropes & Gray (NY)
19. Cravath (NY)
20. Skadden (NY)

My next 10 are basically chaff

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:31 am

3+ yrs solid government w/e. Nothing too crazy.

3.75ish, targeting NYC and select D.C. firms. Thinking lit, but want somewhere w. a summer program that gives me a chance to try some transactional work too.
NY unless noted. Too aggressive? Dumb? Feedback welcome. I know I'm not gonna get interviews with the lesser gpa/small class places I put low but hopeful I can pick them up or slide them a resume.
1. Paul, Weiss
2. Cleary
3. DPW
4. Debevoise
5. Gibson Dunn (D.C. and N.Y.)
6. Covington Burling (D.C.)
7. Skadden (D.C.)
8. S & C
9. Williams and Connolly (D.C.)
10. Kirkland
11. Simpson Thacher
12. Cravath
13. Hogan Lovells (D.C.)
14. Cleary (D.C.)
15. Jones Day (N.Y., express interest in D.C.)
16. Akin Gump (D.C.)
17. Latham
18. Sidley (D.C.)
19. Ropes and Gray (D.C.)
20. Mayer Brown (D.C.)
21 O'M (D.C.)
22. Linklaters
23 Steptoe (D.C.)
24. Paul Hastings (D.C.)
25. Axinn Veltrop
26. Proskauer
27. Kramer Levin
28. Clifford Chance
29. White and Case
30. Weil

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone want to critique my bid list? Concerned I'm being too aggressive.

3.5+ GPA, 2 years of finance WE, significant extracurriculars in UG. Targeting Chicago with serious other midwest ties; NYC as backup.

    1. Milbank (NYC)
    2. Jenner (CHI)
    3. Sidley (NYC)
    4. Weil (NYC)
    5. Katten (CHI)
    6. Sidley (CHI)
    7. Proskauer (NYC)
    8. Paul Hastings (CHI)
    9. Debevoise (NYC)
    10. Latham (NYC)
    11. Simpson Thacher (NYC)
    12. Gibson (NYC)
    13. Fried Frank (NYC)
    14. Cooley (NYC)
    15. Jones Day (CHI)
    16. Mayer Brown (CHI)
    17. Hogan Lovells (NYC)
    18. Winston & Strawn (CHI)
    19. Kirkland (CHI)
    20. Akin Gump (DC)
    21. Davis Polk (NYC)
    22. Ropes (NYC)
    23. McDermott Will & Emery (CHI)
    24. Cadwalader (NYC)
    25. Foley (CHI)
    26. WilmerHale (NYC)
    27. Allen & Overy (NYC)
    28. Shearman & Sterling (NYC)
    29. Cleary (NYC)
    30. Skadden (CHI)


.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:That last response was really great! Can you critique? I'm also a bit afraid of being too aggressive.

I posted a bit earlier, but to recap: 3.56 GPA, 2 years legal/political WE, strong Bay Area ties, NYC as backup.

1. MoFo (SF)
2. Cooley (SF)
3. O'Melveny (SF)
4. Paul Hastings (SF)
5. Weil (NY)
6. Gibson (SF)
7. Hogan Lovells (NY)
8. Paul Weiss (NY)
9. Willkie (NY)
10. Latham (NY)
11. Proskauer (NY)
12. Clifford Chance (NY)
13. Wilson Sonsini (Palo Alto)
14. Davis Polk (NY)
15. Debevoise (NY)
16. Cleary (NY)
17. Simpson (NY)
18. Ropes & Gray (NY)
19. Cravath (NY)
20. Skadden (NY)

My next 10 are basically chaff

I was the anon who critiqued above.

First, why are you picking Ropes NY instead of Ropes SF? If I recall, they only let you pick one city at OCI, so you should do SF for them. Then replace Ropes NY with an NY office of a firm that hires a larger summer class.

You should add K&E SF in your chaff. I doubt they'll send someone from that office, but if you really want SF, it should be in there somewhere. Same with Jones Day SF.

SF is a really tough nut to crack, so it's going to be important for you to make sure you get interview slots with the largest summer class firms in NY, and perform well. In other words, definitely make sure you have a fallback, because you can do everything right and still strike out in SF. So make sure you get hits on your bids at Debevoise, Weil, Latham, etc. I would add White & Case NY if you want to do M&A work.

Relatedly, you're sort of a long shot at Paul, Weiss, Cleary, and Cravath. Especially the latter two (you're below the 25th percentile for both). And NY is just a fallback for you. So, consider dropping those.

Also, do you actually know what work you want to do? If you're IP capable, interested in tech transactions, or interested in startup stuff, then consider some of the Redwood City/Menlo Park/Palo Alto offices of firms coming to OCI that you haven't included here. It's probably the case that you might have to cast a wider net than most, b/c your target market is so tough. If you're in CA for 1L summer, apply *ASAP* at any legit firm that doesn't come to OCI.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:34 am

Also, do you actually know what work you want to do?


I'm actually almost exclusively litigation focused. I just looked and I'm 0.01 above the 25th at both Cravath and Cleary and 0.02 above at Paul, Weiss.

But that being said, are there any other NYC firms you feel like I should be listing in lieu of Cleary/Cravath/Paul, Weiss as to maximize my chance of success?

consider some of the Redwood City/Menlo Park/Palo Alto offices of firms coming to OCI that you haven't included here


I'd honestly rather live in NYC than the Silicon Valley. I'm really set on living in a city and am trying to avoid the South Bay suburbs.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:48 am

MTTLR letters are out :!:

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:49 am

As are MJEAL

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Also, do you actually know what work you want to do?


I'm actually almost exclusively litigation focused. I just looked and I'm 0.01 above the 25th at both Cravath and Cleary and 0.02 above at Paul, Weiss.

But that being said, are there any other NYC firms you feel like I should be listing in lieu of Cleary/Cravath/Paul, Weiss as to maximize my chance of success?

consider some of the Redwood City/Menlo Park/Palo Alto offices of firms coming to OCI that you haven't included here


I'd honestly rather live in NYC than the Silicon Valley. I'm really set on living in a city and am trying to avoid the South Bay suburbs.

Re: GPA - okay, maybe I was a couple hundredths off. But if you're parsing that narrowly at the 25th, it still constitutes a reach. SF is by definition a reach just because of the class sizes, so you can't also be reaching too much in NY, which needs to be a fallback for you. If you want litigation, tho, I agree that P,W is a no-brainer, and should definitely be a priority. See if you can find some contacts there over the summer, get something to talk about at OCI and/or name-drop, pull out the stops because they're tops. But Cravath hires relatively fewer lit people, and just wouldn't be a priority for me at your GPA. Cleary I could go either way on.

I would look at Akin NY, the post-merger Arnold & Porter Kaye Scholer NY, and Hogan NY if I were in your shoes. Does Quinn interview 2Ls? They're literally as good as it gets in litigation, so if they still do that I'd target the NY office. If they don't interview 2Ls or if their GPA demands are too restrictive, boost your grades during 2L and sniff around them this time next summer. No firm I'd rather be at for lit. I'd be targeting a couple of the heavy lit hitters like QE and P,W and use the rest of my NY bids on firms where my GPA is in the sweet spot, along with about 8 SF bids.

Ignore what I said about Silicon Valley, then. Mass mail any legit firms in SF that don't come to OCI yesterday.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:47 pm

Heard Law Reform calls are going out today.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Gibson and Latham can probably be ranked quite a bit lower. They hire large summer classes and would likely interview you even if you didn't get them through bidding. I would move Simpson down under a similar theory. I would move Proskauer up a little; the last two years they had a pretty high rate of interest and missed bids. How many slots does Jenner have? #2 seems high to me.

GPA-wise, I think Skadden CHI, K&E CHI, and Jones Day CHI might be stretches, unless you're closer to 3.6x than 3.5x. Either way you'd be like a 25th percentile GPA hire... which is possible, but not something I'd bet on. The same goes for Cleary.

Probably relevant: Katten CHI no-offered several in their summer class three years ago. They no-offered one out of seven last year. The no-offers and the generally small class would personally cause me to keep them off my bid list entirely.

Overall, I agree that you're being a tad aggressive. Instead of like 7 GPA reaches, make it like 5-6 and cut one.

Also, the CHI heavy strategy is not advised without some Chicago ties. You can get it, but I wouldn't sell out hard for it... midwest ties and Chicago ties are not the same thing.


Thank you! This kind of information is extremely helpful.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:25 am

Question - I have a couple of recruiters that are waiting on my "materials" via connections I have at the firms. One is WAY above me grade-wise but like shoot your shot ya know and the other is a top choice where I'm slightly below their median. I'm very slightly above median GPA-wise.

I'm still waiting to hear back on my secondary journal app and (obviously) law review. Don't anticipate getting on MLR but do you guys think I should wait to send till I hear back on the secondary or send the stuff now?

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Question - I have a couple of recruiters that are waiting on my "materials" via connections I have at the firms. One is WAY above me grade-wise but like shoot your shot ya know and the other is a top choice where I'm slightly below their median. I'm very slightly above median GPA-wise.

I'm still waiting to hear back on my secondary journal app and (obviously) law review. Don't anticipate getting on MLR but do you guys think I should wait to send till I hear back on the secondary or send the stuff now?

Definitely wait until you've decided on a journal. Hopefully it doesn't take much longer

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:36 pm

I have yet to hear either way for MJLR...

I have a friend who received an acceptance call several days ago.

What does this mean :?:

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Also, do you actually know what work you want to do?


I'm actually almost exclusively litigation focused. I just looked and I'm 0.01 above the 25th at both Cravath and Cleary and 0.02 above at Paul, Weiss.

But that being said, are there any other NYC firms you feel like I should be listing in lieu of Cleary/Cravath/Paul, Weiss as to maximize my chance of success?

consider some of the Redwood City/Menlo Park/Palo Alto offices of firms coming to OCI that you haven't included here


I'd honestly rather live in NYC than the Silicon Valley. I'm really set on living in a city and am trying to avoid the South Bay suburbs.

Re: GPA - okay, maybe I was a couple hundredths off. But if you're parsing that narrowly at the 25th, it still constitutes a reach. SF is by definition a reach just because of the class sizes, so you can't also be reaching too much in NY, which needs to be a fallback for you. If you want litigation, tho, I agree that P,W is a no-brainer, and should definitely be a priority. See if you can find some contacts there over the summer, get something to talk about at OCI and/or name-drop, pull out the stops because they're tops. But Cravath hires relatively fewer lit people, and just wouldn't be a priority for me at your GPA. Cleary I could go either way on.

I would look at Akin NY, the post-merger Arnold & Porter Kaye Scholer NY, and Hogan NY if I were in your shoes. Does Quinn interview 2Ls? They're literally as good as it gets in litigation, so if they still do that I'd target the NY office. If they don't interview 2Ls or if their GPA demands are too restrictive, boost your grades during 2L and sniff around them this time next summer. No firm I'd rather be at for lit. I'd be targeting a couple of the heavy lit hitters like QE and P,W and use the rest of my NY bids on firms where my GPA is in the sweet spot, along with about 8 SF bids.

Ignore what I said about Silicon Valley, then. Mass mail any legit firms in SF that don't come to OCI yesterday.


Most firms have a relatively hard GPA cut-off, but then look to other factors once you meet it. So, the bolded is bad advice. If you're at the 25th percentile, chances are you are at/above their GPA cut-off, meaning you then basically have as good a chance as anyone.

What about Debevoise? As long as you're a competent interviewer, there's no way you'll go lower than that. #1 priority is getting an offer, of course, but you don't want to play it too safe and not end up at the best firm you can.

**Alum who went through tons of interviews at our OCIs

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Also, do you actually know what work you want to do?


I'm actually almost exclusively litigation focused. I just looked and I'm 0.01 above the 25th at both Cravath and Cleary and 0.02 above at Paul, Weiss.

But that being said, are there any other NYC firms you feel like I should be listing in lieu of Cleary/Cravath/Paul, Weiss as to maximize my chance of success?

consider some of the Redwood City/Menlo Park/Palo Alto offices of firms coming to OCI that you haven't included here


I'd honestly rather live in NYC than the Silicon Valley. I'm really set on living in a city and am trying to avoid the South Bay suburbs.

Re: GPA - okay, maybe I was a couple hundredths off. But if you're parsing that narrowly at the 25th, it still constitutes a reach. SF is by definition a reach just because of the class sizes, so you can't also be reaching too much in NY, which needs to be a fallback for you. If you want litigation, tho, I agree that P,W is a no-brainer, and should definitely be a priority. See if you can find some contacts there over the summer, get something to talk about at OCI and/or name-drop, pull out the stops because they're tops. But Cravath hires relatively fewer lit people, and just wouldn't be a priority for me at your GPA. Cleary I could go either way on.

I would look at Akin NY, the post-merger Arnold & Porter Kaye Scholer NY, and Hogan NY if I were in your shoes. Does Quinn interview 2Ls? They're literally as good as it gets in litigation, so if they still do that I'd target the NY office. If they don't interview 2Ls or if their GPA demands are too restrictive, boost your grades during 2L and sniff around them this time next summer. No firm I'd rather be at for lit. I'd be targeting a couple of the heavy lit hitters like QE and P,W and use the rest of my NY bids on firms where my GPA is in the sweet spot, along with about 8 SF bids.

Ignore what I said about Silicon Valley, then. Mass mail any legit firms in SF that don't come to OCI yesterday.


Most firms have a relatively hard GPA cut-off, but then look to other factors once you meet it. So, the bolded is bad advice. If you're at the 25th percentile, chances are you are at/above their GPA cut-off, meaning you then basically have as good a chance as anyone.

What about Debevoise? As long as you're a competent interviewer, there's no way you'll go lower than that. #1 priority is getting an offer, of course, but you don't want to play it too safe and not end up at the best firm you can.

**Alum who went through tons of interviews at our OCIs

No, it isn't bad advice. It's simple math. If you're right at the firm's cutoff, that's a dicey play. You're unlikely to get a callback at a firm's 25th, literally by definition. Of course it could happen, and of course you need some reaches. I didn't say to ignore every firm where OP is below median--that would be stupid. The point is that you can't have TOO MANY reaches in Nyc if half of your interest is in an extremely tough market, one that is tricky even for those with good GPAs.

Plus, reputationally, several of the highest GPA-median firms in Nyc are reputed to be less sensitive to factors outside of GPA and law review. The conventional wisdom on TLS suggests this as well.

**recent grad who interviewed with the Nyc firms in question, with a 1L GPA similar to OP's

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:58 pm

Not good advice then. It seems like you disagree with me that "Most firms have a relatively hard GPA cut-off, but then look to other factors once you meet it," given that you talk about it being risky to interview at firms you just meet the cut-off for. You talk about it as if you get a certain amount of points at each screener for each .01 of your GPA, and that you need a certain amount of points to get a callback. In reality, the hiring committees just set a relatively hard GPA floor, then tell the interviewers to go on feel. If you think I'm wrong about that, then please correct me, as I don't want to give bad advice to people. But what you said doesn't really cut into what I said above. From my understanding, It's not "math" really, and to think that you have a 25% shot if you're at the 25th percentile for a firm, or something like that, isn't how you should do the analysis.

In any case, you're right that the poster above probably doesn't meet some of the GPA cut-offs for the firms s/he listed. Cravath shouldn't be on there, and either should Davis Polk probably.

I wouldn't recommend the poster to take away his NY safeties (maybe with the exception of Clifford Chance), because obviously getting an offer is the only thing people should really be concerned about. I just don't want someone with a 3.7 to read this thread and think s/he only has a 50% chance for a callback at S&C, for example, when it's pretty close 100% given that they auto-offer everyone who meets their GPA requirements essentially. Even for this poster, when our respective guidance for him/her doesn't actually differ that much, keeping in mind how interviewers are actually making their decisions will serve him/her well in interviews.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not good advice then. It seems like you disagree with me that "Most firms have a relatively hard GPA cut-off, but then look to other factors once you meet it," given that you talk about it being risky to interview at firms you just meet the cut-off for. You talk about it as if you get a certain amount of points at each screener for each .01 of your GPA, and that you need a certain amount of points to get a callback. In reality, the hiring committees just set a relatively hard GPA floor, then tell the interviewers to go on feel. If you think I'm wrong about that, then please correct me, as I don't want to give bad advice to people. But what you said doesn't really cut into what I said above. From my understanding, It's not "math" really, and to think that you have a 25% shot if you're at the 25th percentile for a firm, or something like that, isn't how you should do the analysis.

In any case, you're right that the poster above probably doesn't meet some of the GPA cut-offs for the firms s/he listed. Cravath shouldn't be on there, and either should Davis Polk probably.

I wouldn't recommend the poster to take away his NY safeties (maybe with the exception of Clifford Chance), because obviously getting an offer is the only thing people should really be concerned about. I just don't want someone with a 3.7 to read this thread and think s/he only has a 50% chance for a callback at S&C, for example, when it's pretty close 100% given that they auto-offer everyone who meets their GPA requirements essentially. Even for this poster, when our respective guidance for him/her doesn't actually differ that much, keeping in mind how interviewers are actually making their decisions will serve him/her well in interviews.

It sounds like you didn't research these firms very much. 3.7 is not an auto-offer at S&C. 3.7 is about top 15-20% on the new curve. If S&C offered everyone with a 3.70 or higher, they'd give out far more offers at Michigan than we know they do. We have the hard data available from OCP. It says they give out about 8-10 per year here, out of (usually) 42 interview slots, which means any particular 3.7 probably does have a (roughly?) 50% shot. Especially considering there's probably 1-2 offers per year that have URM or connections or some other factor we can't generalize to OP.

I'm not denying that there are some GPAs where you're essentially auto-offer at tippy top firms. But the numbers show that 3.7 is not anything like automatic at S&C. They just don't give out enough offers for that to be true. That's the sort of math I'm referring to. So it stands to reason that if you're at a firm's 25th, you're nothing like automatically-offered.

Besides, OP's GPA is a 3.56, not 3.7. There's just no way it's likely she gets an offer at Cravath, S&C, DPW, Skadden, or P,W. It could certainly happen. But all five of them are reaches without question.

But, OP should have a few reaches. Just not a BUNCH of them. That's the takeaway here, and I don't think we disagree.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:10 pm

You keep on twisting my words, but it doesn't matter. We don't disagree on the advice to give the poster above.

The point of my coming on the thread was to say that if you're at a firm's 25th percentile, you likely are at least flirting with their GPA cut-off. Then, since most firms won't look at your GPA much after they determine it's good enough for them, you shouldn't write those firms off because your GPA doesn't seem as good as most they gave offers to. All this said, if you take a good look at the numbers for a particular firm and you can't say wih much certainty that you're above their cut-off, you probably shouldn't bother, because it'll take something remarkable for them to consider low GPAs.

edit: I wasn't referring to the 3.7/S&C thing when I said you were twisting my words. It could be higher/they could have changed their practices. (Who actually wants to work at S&C anyway?)

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:39 pm

3.56 SF/NYC OP here. I appreciate both of y'all giving me advice on this.

I don't think I'm a shoe in for any of the elite NYC firms at all, but I definitely think I'm in the competitive range for all of them except maybe Skadden (which seems to have a hard 3.6 cutoff). I'm also a pretty good interviewer and am in the upper quartile of the normal social/interpersonal skills scale. I'm basically trying to hammer the reaches while also maintaining a solid group of safe firms.

At this point, it's mostly just a matter of finding the right balance between maximizing my chances and mitigating the risk of striking out.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3.56 SF/NYC OP here. I appreciate both of y'all giving me advice on this.

I don't think I'm a shoe in for any of the elite NYC firms at all, but I definitely think I'm in the competitive range for all of them except maybe Skadden (which seems to have a hard 3.6 cutoff). I'm also a pretty good interviewer and am in the upper quartile of the normal social/interpersonal skills scale. I'm basically trying to hammer the reaches while also maintaining a solid group of safe firms.

At this point, it's mostly just a matter of finding the right balance between maximizing my chances and mitigating the risk of striking out.

I was the original feedback. I think you have the right approach and a good attitude.

And, alum anon, I don't think we disagree THAT much. Maybe on emphasis. I agree that 25th percentile is "likely flirting" with where you want to be. I just want to be a little safer than flirting. Especially if you consider that the 25th might be a little misleading. Maybe last year firm X offered a couple of their former paralegals, or a few diversity candidates, and the 25th is misleading a lil. Also consider that the published data is a 5-year average, and the overall mean GPA has climbed over 5 years.

But I think generally we're in agreement. Good luck, OP.

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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:3.56 SF/NYC OP here. I appreciate both of y'all giving me advice on this.

I don't think I'm a shoe in for any of the elite NYC firms at all, but I definitely think I'm in the competitive range for all of them except maybe Skadden (which seems to have a hard 3.6 cutoff). I'm also a pretty good interviewer and am in the upper quartile of the normal social/interpersonal skills scale. I'm basically trying to hammer the reaches while also maintaining a solid group of safe firms.

At this point, it's mostly just a matter of finding the right balance between maximizing my chances and mitigating the risk of striking out.


I'm the other poster in the back-and-forth above. Skadden is one of the NY firms you should take off your list, in my opinion, particularly if it seems like the GPA cut-off is 3.6. Being in the upper quartile in social skills or whatever is not what gets you over the line. And there is no "competitive range" really, unless you mean competitive range as in GPAs that they will consider if you miss their GPA cut-off but are otherwise remarkable. Don't waste your time, it's not worth your energy at OCI and the opportunity cost of filling up that slot with another SF firm or a NY safety.

I think the NY firms you should not, under really any circumstances, put on your list are the following: WLRK, Cravath, S&C, Skadden. You should squeeze in Simpson, Davis Polk and Cleary if you already have the SF firms you need and are comfortable with the amount of safeties. You should feel free to put in everyone else (unless of course it's clear I'm missing someone). Debevoise, Paul, Weiss and and Latham should be your targets, maybe Gibson too. For the latter two, they're good in NY and you also may be able to transfer offices after your summer to their SF office.

To the other alum anon, yes I think we've fallen into agreement, and hopefully our discussion above will be useful for the rising 2Ls on here who are gearing up for OCI. I do need to respond to the second-to-last sentence of yours: these words should not be spoken to law firm representatives and you'd do well to not say them on TLS either. Law firms generally don't keep track of our median/mean GPA. I know this from experience. Don't give them a reason to think about whether they should raise their standards. And anyway, when they changed the average GPA, they changed it to match our peer schools' average GPA. Hopefully these words are now buried and they'll never be spoken again.

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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:15 pm

Haha fair.

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Posts: 298292
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Michigan OCI 2017

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:41 pm

bump

Anonymous User wrote:3+ yrs solid government w/e. Nothing too crazy.

3.75ish, targeting NYC and select D.C. firms. Thinking lit, but want somewhere w. a summer program that gives me a chance to try some transactional work too.
NY unless noted. Too aggressive? Dumb? Feedback welcome. I know I'm not gonna get interviews with the lesser gpa/small class places I put low but hopeful I can pick them up or slide them a resume.
1. Paul, Weiss
2. Cleary
3. DPW
4. Debevoise
5. Gibson Dunn (D.C. and N.Y.)
6. Covington Burling (D.C.)
7. Skadden (D.C.)
8. S & C
9. Williams and Connolly (D.C.)
10. Kirkland
11. Simpson Thacher
12. Cravath
13. Hogan Lovells (D.C.)
14. Cleary (D.C.)
15. Jones Day (N.Y., express interest in D.C.)
16. Akin Gump (D.C.)
17. Latham
18. Sidley (D.C.)
19. Ropes and Gray (D.C.)
20. Mayer Brown (D.C.)
21 O'M (D.C.)
22. Linklaters
23 Steptoe (D.C.)
24. Paul Hastings (D.C.)
25. Axinn Veltrop
26. Proskauer
27. Kramer Levin
28. Clifford Chance
29. White and Case
30. Weil




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