h1b

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freekick

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Re: h1b

Postby freekick » Sat May 06, 2017 8:06 am

Npret wrote:
freekick wrote:
Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Npret wrote:
freekick wrote:Would be helpful if people could (anonymously) mention firms that transfer you to a foreign office if you don't get H1b and those that simply cut you lose. It is possible that individual factors in addition to H1b could be in play in these decisions. Even so, incoming international JD students would be able to make better choices with this information. Thanks.

I think this will be anecdotal and based on firm staffing needs at the time. I've never heard of a firm that guarantees they will find a spot for you if yo can't work in the US. This is valuable information for sure but I feel it would be a mistake to rely on it.


Agreed. The information needs to be handled with care. The value of sharing such information for me is that if someone here reports that firm X cut Y lose after Y didn't get H1B, then I would have specific questions to ask of firm X if I interview. A form of mistaken reliance you may have in mind would be to not even bid on firm X or something just as extreme.

ETA: Accidental anon. Freekick here.


Don't ask about the visa situation until you get an offer. Even then I believe no firm is going to promise a candidate a job if they can't legally work in the US. They can't know what hiring needs will be in other offices Maybe the best you will get is that a firm who will cut you, they will let you know?


You make an interesting point. I was wondering at what point the visa question comes up during the recruitment process. And given that firms know that a given candidate may not get H1B no matter what nationality etc, a stipulation on that would seem to be standard in hiring visa-dependent candidates. What do you think?

No they don't need a stipulation, it's the law. You can't work for them legally. Maybe I don't know what you mean by stipulation?


I meant something like: Your employment is subject to grant of visa (which is the law you refer to.) In the event you don't get it, we make no commitment to relocate you or make any other arrangement to keep you on/ or that we will work something out for you.

The OP anon who just posted could shed some light on this.

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Re: h1b

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 06, 2017 8:16 am

freekick wrote:
Npret wrote:
freekick wrote:
Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Npret wrote:
freekick wrote:Would be helpful if people could (anonymously) mention firms that transfer you to a foreign office if you don't get H1b and those that simply cut you lose. It is possible that individual factors in addition to H1b could be in play in these decisions. Even so, incoming international JD students would be able to make better choices with this information. Thanks.

I think this will be anecdotal and based on firm staffing needs at the time. I've never heard of a firm that guarantees they will find a spot for you if yo can't work in the US. This is valuable information for sure but I feel it would be a mistake to rely on it.


Agreed. The information needs to be handled with care. The value of sharing such information for me is that if someone here reports that firm X cut Y lose after Y didn't get H1B, then I would have specific questions to ask of firm X if I interview. A form of mistaken reliance you may have in mind would be to not even bid on firm X or something just as extreme.

ETA: Accidental anon. Freekick here.


Don't ask about the visa situation until you get an offer. Even then I believe no firm is going to promise a candidate a job if they can't legally work in the US. They can't know what hiring needs will be in other offices Maybe the best you will get is that a firm who will cut you, they will let you know?


You make an interesting point. I was wondering at what point the visa question comes up during the recruitment process. And given that firms know that a given candidate may not get H1B no matter what nationality etc, a stipulation on that would seem to be standard in hiring visa-dependent candidates. What do you think?

No they don't need a stipulation, it's the law. You can't work for them legally. Maybe I don't know what you mean by stipulation?


I meant something like: Your employment is subject to grant of visa (which is the law you refer to.) In the event you don't get it, we make no commitment to relocate you or make any other arrangement to keep you on/ or that we will work something out for you.

The OP anon who just posted could shed some light on this.


When I was accepting the offer from my summer firm, they said they couldn't promise anything in the event of an h1b denial but handled it on a case-by-case basis. The firm also said they had transferred some associates abroad in the past, but it was always subject to the needs of the practice group and firm.

ETA - I was the anon who just posted. Small number of h1b applicants in my firm so don't want to out myself.

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freekick

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Re: h1b

Postby freekick » Sat May 06, 2017 8:42 am

Thanks OP. Definitely no need to name the firm in your case.

Also, I would think that "no commitment if no H1B; we'll figure on a case-to-case basis" would be the standard policy across firms. I mean, they can't say get lost if no H1B or that you will stay even if no H1B, at least not on paper.

Thoughts?

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Re: h1b

Postby Bridgeport » Sat May 06, 2017 9:35 am

freekick wrote:Thanks OP. Definitely no need to name the firm in your case.

Also, I would think that "no commitment if no H1B; we'll figure on a case-to-case basis" would be the standard policy across firms. I mean, they can't say get lost if no H1B or that you will stay even if no H1B, at least not on paper.

Thoughts?

I would also think that that's the standard policy. It really depends on which foreign office's practice group has needs for an associate. But I also heard of rumors that firms XYZ just let you go without figuring out things on a case-by-case basis.

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Re: h1b

Postby Npret » Sat May 06, 2017 10:04 am

I post this in every H1B thread but here is one biglaw firm's policy.

https://www.sullcrom.com/files/upload/visa_policies.pdf

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freekick

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Re: h1b

Postby freekick » Sat May 06, 2017 11:13 am

Npret wrote:I post this in every H1B thread but here is one biglaw firm's policy.

https://www.sullcrom.com/files/upload/visa_policies.pdf


Thanks for sharing this. At least S&C's policy is on the expected lines. Will look up other firms' as well.

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Re: h1b

Postby BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Sat May 06, 2017 2:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the anon who posted this. just had a discussion with my firm re: this. we're waiting a little bit more to see if the h1b works out (it probably won't), and if it doesn't the firm is transferring me to a latin american office. i'm not from the region but i work in a us-specific practice so it makes sense for the firm to keep me as close to the US offices as possible. The firm did have to have a "is this person worth it" conversation with my practice group before deciding on this route. We're trying again next year for the h1b.

Anyone else have stories from this or previous years on losing the lottery?


Congrats on this. Just wondering whether they considered or you brought up the possibility of an L1 ? That obviously lends far more certainty to the firm and its plans. Especially given that they have decided that you are worth it.

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Re: h1b

Postby BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Sat May 06, 2017 2:13 pm

Bridgeport wrote:
freekick wrote:Thanks OP. Definitely no need to name the firm in your case.

Also, I would think that "no commitment if no H1B; we'll figure on a case-to-case basis" would be the standard policy across firms. I mean, they can't say get lost if no H1B or that you will stay even if no H1B, at least not on paper.

Thoughts?

I would also think that that's the standard policy. It really depends on which foreign office's practice group has needs for an associate. But I also heard of rumors that firms XYZ just let you go without figuring out things on a case-by-case basis.


I've also heard some firms have a tacit policy of cutting people loose in case of lottery strike out, While some have reacted both ways depending on the person, his/her need, vacancy, practice group, person's ties to the external office location, language skills and factors like those.

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Re: h1b

Postby Diplock1 » Sat May 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Most Canadians I know use the TN visa, if that helps.

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Re: h1b

Postby guyindfw » Sat May 06, 2017 3:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

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Re: h1b

Postby Bridgeport » Sat May 06, 2017 5:02 pm

guyindfw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

But what if the OP is not Canadian?

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Re: h1b

Postby guyindfw » Sat May 06, 2017 5:24 pm

Bridgeport wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

But what if the OP is not Canadian?


I meant, get a job in Canada. Law firms here might have sattelite offices there. After working there for 1 year, you can apply for L1 (intra company transfer) visa and come to USA. During this period your company can keep applying for lottery. Hopefully the administration will tighten up the misuse of H1B by outsourcing firms, and they will be more available to in-house employees, instead of contracting IT companies.

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heythatslife

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Re: h1b

Postby heythatslife » Sat May 06, 2017 6:57 pm

You could probably count with one hand the number of V100 firms with offices in Canada

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Re: h1b

Postby Npret » Sun May 07, 2017 9:51 am

BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the anon who posted this. just had a discussion with my firm re: this. we're waiting a little bit more to see if the h1b works out (it probably won't), and if it doesn't the firm is transferring me to a latin american office. i'm not from the region but i work in a us-specific practice so it makes sense for the firm to keep me as close to the US offices as possible. The firm did have to have a "is this person worth it" conversation with my practice group before deciding on this route. We're trying again next year for the h1b.

Anyone else have stories from this or previous years on losing the lottery?


Congrats on this. Just wondering whether they considered or you brought up the possibility of an L1 ? That obviously lends far more certainty to the firm and its plans. Especially given that they have decided that you are worth it.


How do you see your future going if you don't get a visa but you have two years or more of experience in US based practice? Will you be able to get a job in your home country?

How do you feel about being sent to an unfamiliar country for a year just to keep your job?

I'm curious about the L1 visa. I don't know if firms use it much. I would like to know what you find out.

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Re: h1b

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 07, 2017 10:50 am

Npret wrote:
BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the anon who posted this. just had a discussion with my firm re: this. we're waiting a little bit more to see if the h1b works out (it probably won't), and if it doesn't the firm is transferring me to a latin american office. i'm not from the region but i work in a us-specific practice so it makes sense for the firm to keep me as close to the US offices as possible. The firm did have to have a "is this person worth it" conversation with my practice group before deciding on this route. We're trying again next year for the h1b.

Anyone else have stories from this or previous years on losing the lottery?


Congrats on this. Just wondering whether they considered or you brought up the possibility of an L1 ? That obviously lends far more certainty to the firm and its plans. Especially given that they have decided that you are worth it.


How do you see your future going if you don't get a visa but you have two years or more of experience in US based practice? Will you be able to get a job in your home country?

How do you feel about being sent to an unfamiliar country for a year just to keep your job?

I'm curious about the L1 visa. I don't know if firms use it much. I would like to know what you find out.


I've heard some firms use the L1 visa, but for some reason mine isn't convinced it could work for a 1st year associate. It's a little unsettling to get sent to an unfamiliar country but I like the work I do, so I'm happy to oblige. Our practice group also has some local lawyers who practice the same area of law but for that country, so we've worked with them somewhat. Some of the clients in our industry are HQ'd outside the US and hire US-qualified lawyers, so I suppose that's a possibility if it doesn't work out, but as long as I have work authorization in the Latin American country and I do fine work and no extraneous factors (e.g., firm imploding) come into play, I should be fine.

There aren't a lot (any?) biglaw companies in my country but some US-trained lawyers work in nearby markets where it's fairly easy to get a work permit if you're paid a US biglaw salary (Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.). In theory I could work there, but for me, it would require a change of practice area.

ETA: Sorry, I forgot again - anon who started this thread.

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Re: h1b

Postby Npret » Sun May 07, 2017 11:04 am

Thanks for the answer. I share the firm's skepticism of the L1 visa for junior associates who lost the H1B lottery. It's great that you can keep your job and live in Latin America if the visa doesn't work out.

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Re: h1b

Postby Bridgeport » Mon May 08, 2017 12:45 pm

So next year, if I finish my degree requirements by April 1, 2018, can I be in the advanced degree pool instead of the regular pool?

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Re: h1b

Postby Phil Brooks » Mon May 08, 2017 1:20 pm

guyindfw wrote:
Bridgeport wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

But what if the OP is not Canadian?


I meant, get a job in Canada. Law firms here might have sattelite offices there. After working there for 1 year, you can apply for L1 (intra company transfer) visa and come to USA. During this period your company can keep applying for lottery. Hopefully the administration will tighten up the misuse of H1B by outsourcing firms, and they will be more available to in-house employees, instead of contracting IT companies.


This is nonsense. There are literally 5 big-law firms that have offices in Canada (Paul Weiss, Skadden, Shearman, Dentons, Baker McKenzie). Further, these offices do an incredibly narrow slice of capital markets work (helping Canadian companies issue debt and equity into the US).

This type of casual dispensing of inaccurate advice serves no purpose other than to get people's hopes up. It is beyond unhelpful. It reminds me of when I was struggling to find a job as a non-citizen during my senior year of undergrad and privileged clueless Americans would just say, "omg, just like, get a sponsor, right??"

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Re: h1b

Postby Npret » Mon May 08, 2017 1:56 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Bridgeport wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

But what if the OP is not Canadian?


I meant, get a job in Canada. Law firms here might have sattelite offices there. After working there for 1 year, you can apply for L1 (intra company transfer) visa and come to USA. During this period your company can keep applying for lottery. Hopefully the administration will tighten up the misuse of H1B by outsourcing firms, and they will be more available to in-house employees, instead of contracting IT companies.


This is nonsense. There are literally 5 big-law firms that have offices in Canada (Paul Weiss, Skadden, Shearman, Dentons, Baker McKenzie). Further, these offices do an incredibly narrow slice of capital markets work (helping Canadian companies issue debt and equity into the US).

This type of casual dispensing of inaccurate advice serves no purpose other than to get people's hopes up. It is beyond unhelpful. It reminds me of when I was struggling to find a job as a non-citizen during my senior year of undergrad and privileged clueless Americans would just say, "omg, just like, get a sponsor, right??"

What is your view of people going to law school when they will need a visa to stay and practice.

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Re: h1b

Postby Phil Brooks » Mon May 08, 2017 2:02 pm

Npret wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Bridgeport wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

But what if the OP is not Canadian?


I meant, get a job in Canada. Law firms here might have sattelite offices there. After working there for 1 year, you can apply for L1 (intra company transfer) visa and come to USA. During this period your company can keep applying for lottery. Hopefully the administration will tighten up the misuse of H1B by outsourcing firms, and they will be more available to in-house employees, instead of contracting IT companies.


This is nonsense. There are literally 5 big-law firms that have offices in Canada (Paul Weiss, Skadden, Shearman, Dentons, Baker McKenzie). Further, these offices do an incredibly narrow slice of capital markets work (helping Canadian companies issue debt and equity into the US).

This type of casual dispensing of inaccurate advice serves no purpose other than to get people's hopes up. It is beyond unhelpful. It reminds me of when I was struggling to find a job as a non-citizen during my senior year of undergrad and privileged clueless Americans would just say, "omg, just like, get a sponsor, right??"

What is your view of people going to law school when they will need a visa to stay and practice.


On the one hand, they do it at their own risk. They have much cheaper options available in their home countries. On the other hand, they are entitled to much fuller disclosure than they are currently getting regarding 1) The caprice of the immigration system, and 2) The utter scam that is the LLM degree ("Our LLM degree sets you up for big-law jobs in every major market in the country!!!" From some TTT school).

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Re: h1b

Postby Bridgeport » Mon May 08, 2017 2:21 pm

I came to law school knowing the risk of not getting the H1B, but the uncertainty still sucks. But there's always the chance of going back home (where decent opportunities exist for those with US JD degrees) as well as working in Hong Kong/Europe/etc.. But I don't think everyone comes to law school thinking about these issues. Many are overly optimistic.

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Re: h1b

Postby Npret » Mon May 08, 2017 2:38 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
Npret wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Bridgeport wrote:
guyindfw wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

I'm a first year associate at a biglaw firm in a major market, currently on OPT, and at this point, pretty much not getting an H1B visa through the lottery. Anyone else out there in the same boat? How is your firm resolving the situation?


Apply for Canadian work permit. It was much easier to get a few years ago.

But what if the OP is not Canadian?


I meant, get a job in Canada. Law firms here might have sattelite offices there. After working there for 1 year, you can apply for L1 (intra company transfer) visa and come to USA. During this period your company can keep applying for lottery. Hopefully the administration will tighten up the misuse of H1B by outsourcing firms, and they will be more available to in-house employees, instead of contracting IT companies.


This is nonsense. There are literally 5 big-law firms that have offices in Canada (Paul Weiss, Skadden, Shearman, Dentons, Baker McKenzie). Further, these offices do an incredibly narrow slice of capital markets work (helping Canadian companies issue debt and equity into the US).

This type of casual dispensing of inaccurate advice serves no purpose other than to get people's hopes up. It is beyond unhelpful. It reminds me of when I was struggling to find a job as a non-citizen during my senior year of undergrad and privileged clueless Americans would just say, "omg, just like, get a sponsor, right??"

What is your view of people going to law school when they will need a visa to stay and practice.


On the one hand, they do it at their own risk. They have much cheaper options available in their home countries. On the other hand, they are entitled to much fuller disclosure than they are currently getting regarding 1) The caprice of the immigration system, and 2) The utter scam that is the LLM degree ("Our LLM degree sets you up for big-law jobs in every major market in the country!!!" From some TTT school).

My feeling is that anyone relying on H1B after a JD should know it's a lottery and that's only if someone hires you. I don't know how to calculate those odds of success.

Npret

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Re: h1b

Postby Npret » Mon May 08, 2017 3:02 pm

Bridgeport wrote:So next year, if I finish my degree requirements by April 1, 2018, can I be in the advanced degree pool instead of the regular pool?

You should ask your firms immigration person but I believe you have to have graduated with the degree.

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Re: h1b

Postby albanach » Mon May 08, 2017 3:54 pm

freekick wrote:
I meant something like: Your employment is subject to grant of visa (which is the law you refer to.) In the event you don't get it, we make no commitment to relocate you or make any other arrangement to keep you on/ or that we will work something out for you.

The OP anon who just posted could shed some light on this.


Presumably they are not offering you an employment contract - i.e. a contract saying we'll employ you for x years and you can only be terminated for cause?

Otherwise, if you're in a right to work state, your employment can be terminated before or after it starts for any reason or no reason (so long as it's not an illegal reason - think race, gender, etc). In other words, even after you accept the position they can generally withdraw the offer before you begin.

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Re: h1b

Postby freekick » Mon May 08, 2017 10:55 pm

Bridgeport wrote:But I don't think everyone comes to law school thinking about these issues. Many are overly optimistic.


This is so true. It's like watching news of bomb blasts every other day but also thinking that it will never happen to me.

Separately, the so called 'lottery' is based on an algorithm. Some immigrnation attorneys claim a high rate of success and 'expertise' in the field. I am temped to think that expertise refers to their understanding of how the 'algorithm' works and how one's chances of winning the putative lottery could be increased. Purely speculative thought though.



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