Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

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Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:36 am

I've been practicing about 2 years, lateraled a few months ago from one big law firm to another. First biglaw firm fired me due to work product and missing typos etc (nothing non-ethical at all).

I AM NOW APPLYING TO A NEW STATE'S BAR EXAM. They ask a bunch of "Please disclose if you have ever been fired, terminated, asked to leave etc." questions.

The head of HR told me that he, due to firms policy, will never comment on standing of former employee and only confirm employment dates. Therefore, there is no way for the bar to know I got fired since I had no gap of employment.

So if I disclose will the Bar care that I got fired? If I don't disclose am I an idiot?

EDIT: the kicker is i got notice of termination after I sent in my first bar app (where I am currently admitted) but before I got sworn in, and didn't amend my app or tell the first bar. I'm scared disclosing this now will cause problems in first jurisdiction
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

Npret

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Npret » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've been practicing about 2 years, lateraled a few months ago from one big law firm to another. First biglaw firm fired me due to work product and missing typos etc (nothing non-ethical at all).

The head of HR told me that he, due to firms policy, will never comment on standing of former employee and only confirm employment dates. Therefore, there is no way for the bar to know I got fired since I had no gap of employment.

So if I disclose will the Bar care that I got fired? If I don't disclose am I an idiot?

No they won't know.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:55 am

Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been practicing about 2 years, lateraled a few months ago from one big law firm to another. First biglaw firm fired me due to work product and missing typos etc (nothing non-ethical at all).

The head of HR told me that he, due to firms policy, will never comment on standing of former employee and only confirm employment dates. Therefore, there is no way for the bar to know I got fired since I had no gap of employment.

So if I disclose will the Bar care that I got fired? If I don't disclose am I an idiot?

No they won't know.



OP here, unless I am missing something. I assume the only way the Bar finds out this stuff is by calling the number listed as a point of contact to your employer, that they dont try to subponea files from employer (lol) or use some other out of box method. How do they check this stuff out?

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:11 am

Why would the bar even have to know you got fired? In what context would you disclose this? What am I missing here, help me out.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:33 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Why would the bar even have to know you got fired? In what context would you disclose this? What am I missing here, help me out.


I am applying for a new state bar exam and 2 of the questions revolve around "Have you ever been terminated, asked to resign, etc. from any current or former employer"

Edited posting to reflect the above info.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby 2014 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:39 am

I would disclose and include a rider that succinctly explains why you were fired. If you don't disclose and your old firm either goes against policy and says you were or the bar independently finds out it would probably be crippling to your application.

It's not like you are the first person to reach the out of the up and out even if you were somewhat early to do so.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Why would the bar even have to know you got fired? In what context would you disclose this? What am I missing here, help me out.


I am applying for a new state bar exam and 2 of the questions revolve around "Have you ever been terminated, asked to resign, etc. from any current or former employer"

Edited posting to reflect the above info.

Got it - that makes sense.

In that case, you obviously need to disclose. The worst thing you could possibly do in a situation like this is lie/omit. But I can't imagine it will be a problem. People get laid off from law firms all the time, often for reasons beyond their control.

That said, are you sure you were actually fired? If you just got told "we don't see a future here for you" and then voluntarily lateraled before your employment was up, I don't think that really counts.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:14 am

Yeah, if you were actually fired (rather than got out before you were fired) then you have to disclose, but it won't matter at all. If you were fired because you were drunk 24/7 or stealing client money, maybe. But people get fired for reasons that don't implicate ethics all the time (and whatever they thought of your work product, being fired is not a sign of incompetence or any of the ethical flags).

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby B90 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:31 am

I would disclose.
Something like "On (date) I left (firm) after I submitted documents that contained gramatical errors. I subsequently found employment at (next firm) on (date)."
Last edited by B90 on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:33 am

B90 wrote:I would disclose.
Something like "On (date) I left (firm) after several I submitted documents that contained gramatical errors. I subsequently found employment at (next firm) on (date)."

I wouldn't even mention the reason unless the question calls for it.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby nealric » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:I've been practicing about 2 years, lateraled a few months ago from one big law firm to another. First biglaw firm fired me due to work product and missing typos etc (nothing non-ethical at all).

I AM NOW APPLYING TO A NEW STATE'S BAR EXAM. They ask a bunch of "Please disclose if you have ever been fired, terminated, asked to leave etc." questions.

The head of HR told me that he, due to firms policy, will never comment on standing of former employee and only confirm employment dates. Therefore, there is no way for the bar to know I got fired since I had no gap of employment.

So if I disclose will the Bar care that I got fired? If I don't disclose am I an idiot?


Just disclose. State bars have admitted convicted murderers, but they do not look at application omissions kindly. Most likely, they will simply call the old firm and ask if you were fired due to ethics violations. Unless they say "yes" or some complaint was submitted to your current state bar, it's very unlikely that something like this would deny you admission.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:52 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, if you were actually fired (rather than got out before you were fired) then you have to disclose, but it won't matter at all. If you were fired because you were drunk 24/7 or stealing client money, maybe. But people get fired for reasons that don't implicate ethics all the time (and whatever they thought of your work product, being fired is not a sign of incompetence or any of the ethical flags).


I got an email that basically said "pursuant to our discussion, as of X date, your employment with X is terminated.

Also, the kicker is that i got notice of termination after I sent in my first bar app (where I am currently admitted) but before I got sworn in, and didn't amend my app or tell the first bar as I believe they require u to do if anything u stayed at the time becomes untrue later. I'm scared disclosing this now will cause problems in first jurisdiction

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:56 am

nealric wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I've been practicing about 2 years, lateraled a few months ago from one big law firm to another. First biglaw firm fired me due to work product and missing typos etc (nothing non-ethical at all).

I AM NOW APPLYING TO A NEW STATE'S BAR EXAM. They ask a bunch of "Please disclose if you have ever been fired, terminated, asked to leave etc." questions.

The head of HR told me that he, due to firms policy, will never comment on standing of former employee and only confirm employment dates. Therefore, there is no way for the bar to know I got fired since I had no gap of employment.

So if I disclose will the Bar care that I got fired? If I don't disclose am I an idiot?


Just disclose. State bars have admitted convicted murderers, but they do not look at application omissions kindly. Most likely, they will simply call the old firm and ask if you were fired due to ethics violations. Unless they say "yes" or some complaint was submitted to your current state bar, it's very unlikely that something like this would deny you admission.

This.
*Disclaimer: I have a JD but no license yet, so this is not legal advice
If you follow my suggestion (or something similar), the state bar will likely be satisfied. Worst case scenario, they will do as nealric said and MAYBE contact you to ask for clarification (the latter is extremely unlikely, but I don't know what state you're applying to).
To answer OP's original question, no they will not care that you were fired (sadly, it happens literally everyday to someone somewhere), but they WILL care very much if you are evasive.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 01, 2017 1:49 pm

bumping this before final decesion

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Danger Zone » Mon May 01, 2017 1:52 pm

You must disclose. Just state the date your employment terminated, not when you were notified of the termination (to avoid issues with the first state).
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby B90 » Mon May 01, 2017 2:01 pm

Danger Zone wrote:You must disclose. Just state the date your employment terminated, not when you were notified of the termination (to avoid issues with the first state).


If I were in your situation, I would disclose.
IMHO, the downside of NOT disclosing is farrrrr worse than the downside of disclosing.
I am really sorry you are in this situation.

Honestly, I am not sure I want to be part of a profession that would pour so much salt into the wound and kick you while you're down. I am confident you can convince c&f that you are worthy of "the profession."

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 01, 2017 2:12 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
B90 wrote:I would disclose.
Something like "On (date) I left (firm) after several I submitted documents that contained gramatical errors. I subsequently found employment at (next firm) on (date)."

I wouldn't even mention the reason unless the question calls for it.

I'd be surprised of the question doesn't call for it, but, even if it doesn't, there will be a follow-up question why.

Be clear, but not detailed, like "reason for termination - unsatisfactory work product" or "disagreement on work product". They'll probably send a questionnaire to the employer, which will ask them to verify that you worked there and whether you displayed character issues, but is actually quite benign. Expect your admission to take a little longer than usual.

Source of knowledge: disclosed prior termination when applying to the bar in 4 states
(2 where I originally lived, 2 when I moved to a different part of the country)

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Night_L » Mon May 29, 2017 10:29 pm

Good god you people are so strange sometimes. People get fired from jobs all the time. Unless the reason involved some dishonest conduct (which is the ENTIRE purpose of the question), the bar committee absolutely doesn't give a shit. Disclose and move on with your life.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby B90 » Tue May 30, 2017 1:12 am

Night_L wrote:Good god you people are so strange sometimes. People get fired from jobs all the time. Unless the reason involved some dishonest conduct (which is the ENTIRE purpose of the question), the bar committee absolutely doesn't give a shit. Disclose and move on with your life.

This is rather hostile way to necro a month old thread.

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby BeachBear » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:47 pm

Hi OP. If you don't mind me asking for something completely unrelated, what did you do that resulted in "work product" issue? That is something I'm struggling with right now and I would appreciate learning a bit from your experience. Feel free to PM me.

Thanks,

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Re: Will the Bar care I got fired from biglaw for work product issues?

Postby Mickfromgm » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:04 am

First of all, don't be so sure that they would never find out . . . . . you know how no criminal has ever committed crimes thinking they'd get caught. Kinda like that. There are so many weird ways to get hidden information exposed nowadays. For example, what if someone at the firm or elsewhere has a secret grudge against you and sends in an anonymous tip? Or maybe one of your references for the bar admission unknowingly mentions or implies that you were asked to leave (as you know, you don't get to see the reference letters beforehand to catch this). An ugly investigation ensues. And this could happen 5, 10 or 20 years from now.

No one cares if you got fired as long as you didn't steal from a client or the firm, engage in sexual harassment, physically assaulted someone, traveled to Thailand for a sampling of ladyboys (maybe this one is okay), so on and so on. But they definitely would care if you lied on your bar admission application -- if discovered, you will be disbarred from every jurisdiction you are in and, most likely, you would never be admitted in any new jurisdiction. You know what they say, a coverup is always worse than the crime itself.

Don't be silly, brother.



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