Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

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Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:25 pm

I was awarded a summer associate position this summer at a Vault 50 firm through a diversity program. The firm has placed me at a newer, smaller office and I will be the only summer there. Furthermore, I was told that this will not lead to a 2L summer. I was surprised because this associate position comes with a large scholarship and the weekly salary of a traditional summer, so this seems like a big investment for them. I spoke to associates at the office I'll be at and they affirmed that 1L associates are not brought back for a 2L summer.

Do you think having this experience on my resume will help me, especially at OCI this summer? I've read that it looks bad if you don't work at the firm where you summered. My GPA is 3.23, I'm on moot court, and I will not find out about law review until this summer. I attend a Tier 2 school and last year 20% of 2Ls worked at big firms. After grades came out last semester I thought my shot at Big Law would be put off for several years, and I should instead focus on working at a medium law firm, but my career counselor said this summer position could "change things" but she wouldn't elaborate.

After seeing my grades I had planned not to do OCI (my mentor had told me students need a 3.5 to even have a shot) but I'm wondering if this job experience will help me at all.

Thanks!
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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KunAgnis

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Re: Will 1L Summar at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby KunAgnis » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was awarded a summer associate position this summer at a Vault 50 firm through a diversity program. The firm has placed me at a newer, smaller office and I will be the only summer there. Furthermore, I was told that this will not lead to a 2L summer. I was surprised because this associate position comes with a large scholarship and the weekly salary of a traditional summer, so this seems like a big investment for them. I spoke to associates at the firm and they affirmed that 1L associates, even great ones, are not brought back for a 2L summer.

Do you think having this experience on my resume will help me, especially at OCI this summer? I've read that it looks bad if you don't work at the firm where you summered. My GPA is a 3.23, I'm on moot court, I will not find out about law review until this summer, and I attend a Tier 2 school. After grades came out last semester I thought my shot at Big Law would be put off for several years, but my career counselor said this summer position could "change things" but wouldn't elaborate.

After seeing my grades I had planned not to do OCI (my mentor told me students need a 3.5 to even have a shot) but I'm wondering if this job experience will help me at all.

Thanks!


I'm sure a summer would but I'm not sure a "summar" would help. Jokes aside, it should help significantly. Your experience puts you ahead of peers who haven't worked at a law firm yet; if you get an offer to return, that makes you a vetted candidate and makes you attractive. I think you should still do 2L OCI to see what you can get.

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Re: Will 1L Summar at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby ballouttacontrol » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:36 pm

marginally. everyone is familiar with how these 1L diversity things work. obviously a good experience. not going to you into a firm that your grades and school wouldnt otherwise qualify you for though

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Re: Will 1L Summar at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:41 pm

That's really unfortunate they categorically don't give offers to return for 2L summer. That said, you should absolutely do OCI and bid your firm for the summer (assuming you do good work for them during the summer). It makes no sense to skip OCI altogether if Biglaw is what you want, despite your less desirable GPA.

Think of it this way: despite the interviewer's position, they may or may not have a ton of experience interviewing. And while they'll have GPAs in mind for what they'd prefer, they're really just looking for candidates who could succeed in their firm and do good work. And you know what's a great way of signaling you're a strong candidate to do good work for their firm? Having firm experience where you did good work.

Forgive the tad crass analogy, but your GPA/school alone makes you the plain guy/girl who wouldn't normally interest the popular guy/girl. But you recently gave their friend a mind-blowing summer romance that had to end because you go to school too far from one another. When you get back to school in the fall, knowing you're available, they're more likely to check you out, even if nothing has changed.

Do OCI. If OCI doesn't pan out, mass mail every firm (including the one you're summering at this summer). Highlight your experiences at your firm this summer as reason you can be successful in that environment. Hustle, network, and hustle some more. You're still facing an upward climb, but this 1L SA could be special mountain climbing spikes. Use them wisely and you just might summit the mountaintop.

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Re: Will 1L Summar at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby KunAgnis » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
KunAgnis wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I was awarded a summer associate position this summer at a Vault 50 firm through a diversity program. The firm has placed me at a newer, smaller office and I will be the only summer there. Furthermore, I was told that this will not lead to a 2L summer. I was surprised because this associate position comes with a large scholarship and the weekly salary of a traditional summer, so this seems like a big investment for them. I spoke to associates at the firm and they affirmed that 1L associates, even great ones, are not brought back for a 2L summer.

Do you think having this experience on my resume will help me, especially at OCI this summer? I've read that it looks bad if you don't work at the firm where you summered. My GPA is a 3.23, I'm on moot court, I will not find out about law review until this summer, and I attend a Tier 2 school. After grades came out last semester I thought my shot at Big Law would be put off for several years, but my career counselor said this summer position could "change things" but wouldn't elaborate.

After seeing my grades I had planned not to do OCI (my mentor told me students need a 3.5 to even have a shot) but I'm wondering if this job experience will help me at all.

Thanks!


I'm sure a summer would but I'm not sure a "summar" would help. Jokes aside, it should help significantly. Your experience puts you ahead of peers who haven't worked at a law firm yet; if you get an offer to return, that makes you a vetted candidate and makes you attractive. I think you should still do 2L OCI to see what you can get.


Thank you for your input!

My mentor working at a big firm said if I do OCI I'll be asked why I wasn't asked back. Do you have any suggestions on how I could answer this? My mentor said if I say, "It's the firm's policy not to give a second summer" the firm will probably respond, "If you were great they would have made an exception." Thoughts?


You could just differentiate the firms. Say that you prefer this firm's practice/geographical location/culture and that should suffice. It's harder to be more specific without knowing more details. But yeah usually practice or geographical preference does the trick. Culture is harder to pull off since you could look like you're talking out of your ass.

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Re: Will 1L Summar at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
UVA2B wrote:That's really unfortunate they categorically don't give offers to return for 2L summer. That said, you should absolutely do OCI and bid your firm for the summer (assuming you do good work for them during the summer). It makes no sense to skip OCI altogether if Biglaw is what you want, despite your less desirable GPA.

Think of it this way: despite the interviewer's position, they may or may not have a ton of experience interviewing. And while they'll have GPAs in mind for what they'd prefer, they're really just looking for candidates who could succeed in their firm and do good work. And you know what's a great way of signaling you're a strong candidate to do good work for their firm? Having firm experience where you did good work.

Forgive the tad crass analogy, but your GPA/school alone makes you the plain guy/girl who wouldn't normally interest the popular guy/girl. But you recently gave their friend a mind-blowing summer romance that had to end because you go to school too far from one another. When you get back to school in the fall, knowing you're available, they're more likely to check you out, even if nothing has changed.

Do OCI. If OCI doesn't pan out, mass mail every firm (including the one you're summering at this summer). Highlight your experiences at your firm this summer as reason you can be successful in that environment. Hustle, network, and hustle some more. You're still facing an upward climb, but this 1L SA could be special mountain climbing spikes. Use them wisely and you just might summit the mountaintop.


Thanks, and the analogy made sense! I submitted the application for this position before grades came out and I was shocked when I made it through 3 rounds of interviews and was offered the position, because, as you said, my grades and school are not the most desirable. I'll ask you the same question I asked the above poster, and appreciate any feedback or thoughts you can give:

My mentor works at a big firm said if I do OCI I'll be asked why I wasn't asked back. Do you have any suggestions on how I can answer this? My mentor said if I say, "It's the firm's policy not to give a second summer" the firm will probably respond, "If you were great they would have made an exception." Thoughts?


I agree with the above poster. Your goal when you get that question is to deflect and redirect your interest in that firm. Just tell them you're not considering returning to that firm and like the practice/location of the firm you're interviewing with more (even if it's largely BS). Don't lie if they press the matter, but your entire goal is to redirect their attention to why you want to work for them, not why you're not working for the 1L firm. So if forced, I'd say something like, "I had a really great experience at X firm working on a, b, c matters, but when I was looking at the work you do at Y firm, I just knew it was a better fit for [insert reasons]. The firm doesn't ask 1L SAs to return for 2L summer as a policy, but that's likely for the best because Y firm's core business is where I feel my abilities can thrive and where I can best be an asset to the firm."

That's rough and off the top of my head, but the point remains: make it why you'd rather go to Y firm, deflect and minimalize why you didn't receive an offer from X firm.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby ballouttacontrol » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:02 pm

You really need to tell them of the policy not to bring back the diversity program 1Ls. If you act like you were no offered due to performance, you're toast. If it's true, it would be helpful to be able to say they have never made a return offer to someone in the diversity program

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:06 pm

ballouttacontrol wrote:You really need to tell them of the policy not to bring back the diversity program 1Ls. If you act like you were no offered due to performance, you're toast. If it's true, it would be helpful to be able to say they have never made a return offer to someone in the diversity program


I'm not sure if it's for the entire law firm or if it's just the office I was placed at. I'll be sure to find out before going to OCI.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:11 pm

This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Hikikomorist » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:13 pm

grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

This is still $35k better than OP's alternative.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby KunAgnis » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:26 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:This is still $35k better than OP's alternative.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby UVA2B » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Reallly curious that OP deleted non-objectionable, non-indentifying posts when their user name is already quoted here.

And I agree it sucks if the firm actually operates this way.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby grades?? » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:29 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

This is still $35k better than OP's alternative.


Listen I agree, OP should take it in the perfect world. But OP should know its pretty clear that firm is using OP purely based on the color of OP's skin. Thats awful.

But its 35k. So yeah.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:29 pm

grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

Really? I thought 1L diversity was to help diversity students experience biglaw and give them a boost. I didn't think 1L diversity hires are automatically given 2L offers. Firms may go below their usual standards for 1L diversity that's just what happens.

OP: a few things. Do a great job this summer, be positive and learn. Work with the goal of creating mentors and references. Those connections and references can help you get another job.

I don't know where your mentor is from but if the firm has a strict policy that 1Ls aren't given 2L summer jobs, then I don't at all agree that they would change their mind is pu were good enough. The firm has that policy so you know the 1L summer is more for training than a job interview. I see nothing wrong with mentioning that policy and say you knew they had that policy but you took the job to experience biglaw. Don't make it look like you screwed up an weren't offered. I'm sure any reference would confirm that policy.

There is absolutely no reason to skip OCI but if your grades are going to keep you from getting interviews, you are going to have to network and massmail. I would massmail as early as possible.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:35 pm

Npret wrote:
grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

Really? I thought 1L diversity was to help diversity students experience biglaw and give them a boost. I didn't think 1L diversity hires are automatically given 2L offers. Firms may go below their usual standards for 1L diversity that's just what happens.

Yeah, this was how it often worked in my secondary market/lower T1 school. It's certainly not unbelievable or ATL worthy.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:35 pm

grades?? wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

This is still $35k better than OP's alternative.


Listen I agree, OP should take it in the perfect world. But OP should know its pretty clear that firm is using OP purely based on the color of OP's skin. Thats awful.

But its 35k. So yeah.


The firm probably signed on to some diversity program to do their part to increase diversity but doesn't want to have to promise jobs to 1Ls.

OP can still get connections, mentors, references and work experience that other 1Ls won't have. This can help OP get started on a career even if the firm won't promise OP a job.
Last edited by Npret on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:38 pm

UVA2B wrote:Reallly curious that OP deleted non-objectionable, non-indentifying posts when their user name is already quoted here.

And I agree it sucks if the firm actually operates this way.

It's pretty easy for people to mix up the anon/non-anon on phones. I re-anon-ed the OP.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:40 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Reallly curious that OP deleted non-objectionable, non-indentifying posts when their user name is already quoted here.

And I agree it sucks if the firm actually operates this way.

It's pretty easy for people to mix up the anon/non-anon on phones. I re-anon-ed the OP.

Can you anon the "edited x number of times" text?

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby ballouttacontrol » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:40 pm

grades?? wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

This is still $35k better than OP's alternative.


Listen I agree, OP should take it in the perfect world. But OP should know its pretty clear that firm is using OP purely based on the color of OP's skin. Thats awful.

But its 35k. So yeah.


bro this is common practice in the law firm world. no reason to get yor panties in a bunch. MANY firms have blanket policies against bringing back their diversity 1Ls. look at the SEO thread where firms pay fucking 0Ls to do whatever the fuck. Many if not MOST of those firms don't make offers to return after 1L.

It's still a big net positive to the minority applicant that gets to put the firm name on their resume

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:41 pm

Npret wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Reallly curious that OP deleted non-objectionable, non-indentifying posts when their user name is already quoted here.

And I agree it sucks if the firm actually operates this way.

It's pretty easy for people to mix up the anon/non-anon on phones. I re-anon-ed the OP.

Can you anon the "edited x number of times" text?

Oh damn I always forget that exists. Thanks. (We have to delete those.)

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Npret » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:56 pm

ballouttacontrol wrote:
grades?? wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
grades?? wrote:This whole thing smells kinda fishy. Does anyone else think they are using OP purely to put him/her on a diversity pamphlet and then told OP about no-offering summers just because they want to pretend they are diverse? Does that mean they are just straight up admitting OP is unqualified except for the diversity aspect?

I know diversity summers are a thing, but this seems almost like bad faith. Hey everyone look at our only summer who happens to be diverse! But when it comes to 2l sa's, we actually care about qualifications.

Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

This is still $35k better than OP's alternative.


Listen I agree, OP should take it in the perfect world. But OP should know its pretty clear that firm is using OP purely based on the color of OP's skin. Thats awful.

But its 35k. So yeah.


bro this is common practice in the law firm world. no reason to get yor panties in a bunch. MANY firms have blanket policies against bringing back their diversity 1Ls. look at the SEO thread where firms pay fucking 0Ls to do whatever the fuck. Many if not MOST of those firms don't make offers to return after 1L.

It's still a big net positive to the minority applicant that gets to put the firm name on their resume


Exactly. That's why OPs mentors advice is wrong and confuses me. Any interviewer should understand that the policy is that 1Ls aren't hired to permanent jobs and it's not a poor reflection on OP at all.

Edit to add: OP you are getting some questionable advice. Please keep posting as you look for a job just to check the advice you've received. Not getting a job because iof a commonly known practice isn't something you should try to sell as a lack of interest in a practice area. Just do good work and make the most of your oppurtunity. Congrats on the job.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby ernie » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was awarded a summer associate position this summer at a Vault 50 firm through a diversity program. The firm has placed me at a newer, smaller office and I will be the only summer there. Furthermore, I was told that this will not lead to a 2L summer. I was surprised because this associate position comes with a large scholarship and the weekly salary of a traditional summer, so this seems like a big investment for them. I spoke to associates at the office I'll be at and they affirmed that 1L associates are not brought back for a 2L summer.

Do you think having this experience on my resume will help me, especially at OCI this summer? I've read that it looks bad if you don't work at the firm where you summered. My GPA is 3.23, I'm on moot court, and I will not find out about law review until this summer. I attend a Tier 2 school and last year 20% of 2Ls worked at big firms. After grades came out last semester I thought my shot at Big Law would be put off for several years, and I should instead focus on working at a medium law firm, but my career counselor said this summer position could "change things" but she wouldn't elaborate.

After seeing my grades I had planned not to do OCI (my mentor had told me students need a 3.5 to even have a shot) but I'm wondering if this job experience will help me at all.

Thanks!

It will help you at OCI because it will give you something to talk about. It won't hurt; OCI interviewers know how diversity programs work.

Work your ass off over the summer. Sometimes firms say they can't/won't let 1L diversity summers return, but they do anyways. Network your ass off too, while you have your firm business cards.

I had a diversity position my 1L summer. It was a great experience, and I would have thought so even if I hadn't gotten an offer. Learned a ton and it helped me make some decisions about my professional interests in advance of OCI.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:50 am

grades?? wrote:Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

OP—please don't follow this horrible advice. It can do nothing but hurt you.

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby ernie » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:09 am

rpupkin wrote:
grades?? wrote:Idk, seems sketchy what they are doing to you OP. Just know you will have to have a GREAT explanation for this for OCI. I think OP should out the firm to Above the Law because this is kinda unbelievable.

OP—please don't follow this horrible advice. It can do nothing but hurt you.

No can't you see they're USING him for their DIVERSITY PAMPHLETS. We will not let this injustice go unredressed, someone call Elie Mystal immediately

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Re: Will 1L Summer at Big Law Open Doors?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:28 am

OP here. There seems to be some talk about what makes me diverse.

I'm actually a white girl, ha! But I'm a first generation college student, first to graduate high school, and from rural America. So they most certainly are not using my skin color to diversify their office.

The more I looked into these kinds of programs, and went through profiles on Linkedin from various firms, it became apparent that many diverse 1Ls (from what I saw) do not return to where they did their 1L summer. I was just surprised that they gave me so much money (via payroll and scholarship), and were going to invest time into me, with the plan to not have me back.



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