Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

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Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:33 pm

I am trying to get a job in the Bay Area. My impression is that it's even smaller than Chicago (and its vicinity) legal market or they only hire experienced lawyers. Is this impression correct?

If so, why? Aren't there many startups and great companies boosting economies?

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am trying to get a job in the Bay Area. My impression is that it's even smaller than Chicago (and its vicinity) legal market or they only hire experienced lawyers. Is this impression correct?

If so, why? Aren't there many startups and great companies boosting economies?


It's a pretty big place, including SF, Oakland, and Silicon Valley, with big firms having offices typically in at least two of these cities/places. What makes it hard to get into is that Stanford and Berkeley dominate the area. Also, there's a perception that everyone wants to practice law in Cali (one of the reasons they've been reluctant to make their exam easier, I think). So I think people hiring might naturally lean toward hiring people already in Cali than someone from outside, which brings them back to Berkeley and Stanford.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am trying to get a job in the Bay Area. My impression is that it's even smaller than Chicago (and its vicinity) legal market or they only hire experienced lawyers. Is this impression correct?

SF/SV is about the same size as the Chicago legal market—i.e., there are about the same number of big-firm jobs in both.

Your impression that SF/SV law firms "only hire experienced lawyers" is incorrect.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Moneytrees » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:15 am

I would have guessed Chicago's market was way bigger than the bay area's, but I have no hard data.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:51 am

Moneytrees wrote:I would have guessed Chicago's market was way bigger than the bay area's, but I have no hard data.

Thirty years Chicago was way bigger than SF/SV. No longer, though. Chicago is now only slightly bigger than SF/SV, and smaller than LA.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Npret » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am trying to get a job in the Bay Area. My impression is that it's even smaller than Chicago (and its vicinity) legal market or they only hire experienced lawyers. Is this impression correct?

If so, why? Aren't there many startups and great companies boosting economies?

You can go to NALP and read the number of summers hired at each firm and add them up. That will give you some hard data and a general estimate of summers hired in the area.
Some firms will only report a total for all firms but the data is there for a reasonable estimate.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby rahulg91 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:25 am

From the NLJ 350 Regional Report:
(The NLJ 350 is a list the 350 largest American law firms by headcount)

CHICAGO

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 3
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 94
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,700
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.6%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 5.2%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 82

SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 4
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 201
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,057
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.7%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 4.8%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 35

SOURCE: http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202728676000

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:28 am

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:Also, there's a perception that everyone wants to practice law in Cali (one of the reasons they've been reluctant to make their exam easier, I think).


Not sure that's true. Cali's low bar passage rates are easily explained by the inordinate amount of TTT law schools that are in that state.

grades??

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby grades?? » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:50 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:Also, there's a perception that everyone wants to practice law in Cali (one of the reasons they've been reluctant to make their exam easier, I think).


Not sure that's true. Cali's low bar passage rates are easily explained by the inordinate amount of TTT law schools that are in that state.


Including the Stanford law dean?

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby v5junior » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:57 am

rahulg91 wrote:From the NLJ 350 Regional Report:
(The NLJ 350 is a list the 350 largest American law firms by headcount)

CHICAGO

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 3
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 94
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,700
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.6%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 5.2%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 82

SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 4
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 201
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,057
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.7%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 4.8%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 35

SOURCE: http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202728676000


Could you post 1 and 2 here? I would never have guessed that LA is #2.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby dabigchina » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:21 am

grades?? wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:
LurkerTurnedMember wrote:Also, there's a perception that everyone wants to practice law in Cali (one of the reasons they've been reluctant to make their exam easier, I think).


Not sure that's true. Cali's low bar passage rates are easily explained by the inordinate amount of TTT law schools that are in that state.


Including the Stanford law dean?

I'm guessing she didn't study that hard since she was already a fairly accomplished lawyer when she took it.

That being said, the CA bar is pretty hard.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Wacked Wombat » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:32 am

v5junior wrote:
rahulg91 wrote:From the NLJ 350 Regional Report:
(The NLJ 350 is a list the 350 largest American law firms by headcount)

CHICAGO

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 3
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 94
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,700
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.6%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 5.2%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 82

SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 4
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 201
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,057
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.7%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 4.8%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 35

SOURCE: http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202728676000


Could you post 1 and 2 here? I would never have guessed that LA is #2.


Its not. NYC then D.C.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby v5junior » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:52 am

Wacked Wombat wrote:
v5junior wrote:
rahulg91 wrote:From the NLJ 350 Regional Report:
(The NLJ 350 is a list the 350 largest American law firms by headcount)

CHICAGO

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 3
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 94
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,700
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.6%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 5.2%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 82

SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA

NLJ 350 market rank by headcount: 4
NLJ 350 offices in this market: 201
Lawyers working at NLJ 350 firms: 7,057
Change in number of lawyers (2013-14): -0.7%
NLJ 350 lawyers working in this market: 4.8%
Average headcount of NLJ 350 offices in this market: 35

SOURCE: http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202728676000


Could you post 1 and 2 here? I would never have guessed that LA is #2.


Its not. NYC then D.C.


Okay, that's what I thought. Was confused about this:


rpupkin wrote:Chicago is now only slightly bigger than SF/SV, and smaller than LA.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby ballouttacontrol » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:06 pm

bay area has SHITLOADS of little rinkey dink outposts that it seems like every single freaking v100 puts down hoping to snag some big tech clients

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby trebekismyhero » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:31 pm

ballouttacontrol wrote:bay area has SHITLOADS of little rinkey dink outposts that it seems like every single freaking v100 puts down hoping to snag some big tech clients


This seems to be very true. Bay Area overall is close to Chicago, but Chicago feels bigger because there is Sidley and Kirkland that regular have SA classes of at least 40 and often over 50 and several other firms in Chicago have classes over 20. I feel like the Bay Area doesn't have many firms with big classes or large total headcount for that matter.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Npret » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:46 pm

trebekismyhero wrote:
ballouttacontrol wrote:bay area has SHITLOADS of little rinkey dink outposts that it seems like every single freaking v100 puts down hoping to snag some big tech clients


This seems to be very true. Bay Area overall is close to Chicago, but Chicago feels bigger because there is Sidley and Kirkland that regular have SA classes of at least 40 and often over 50 and several other firms in Chicago have classes over 20. I feel like the Bay Area doesn't have many firms with big classes or large total headcount for that matter.

That's why I suggested NALP which will show how many summers were hired by firm.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:53 pm

Its not. NYC then D.C.

v5junior wrote:Okay, that's what I thought. Was confused about this:

rpupkin wrote:Chicago is now only slightly bigger than SF/SV, and smaller than LA.

I don't know where DC ranks, but what I wrote is correct--or at least it was correct as of three or four years ago.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Wacked Wombat » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:06 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Its not. NYC then D.C.

v5junior wrote:Okay, that's what I thought. Was confused about this:

rpupkin wrote:Chicago is now only slightly bigger than SF/SV, and smaller than LA.

I don't know where DC ranks, but what I wrote is correct--or at least it was correct as of three or four years ago.


According to the Source provided above (which again only looks at the top 350 by attorney size law firms); Also, the data is from mid-2015:
NY - 22,452
DC - 13,856
Chicago - 7,700
SF "Bay Area" - 7,057
LA - 6,407
Boston - 4,423
Philly - 3,713
ATL - 3,329
Houston - 3,031
Dallas - 3,029

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:21 pm

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/02/state-of ... al-market/

Basically, I'm wrong, per the article: LA is about 4/5 the size of the Chicago market and the Bay Area is about 1/2 the size.

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby Moneytrees » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Wacked Wombat wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Its not. NYC then D.C.

v5junior wrote:Okay, that's what I thought. Was confused about this:

rpupkin wrote:Chicago is now only slightly bigger than SF/SV, and smaller than LA.

I don't know where DC ranks, but what I wrote is correct--or at least it was correct as of three or four years ago.


According to the Source provided above (which again only looks at the top 350 by attorney size law firms); Also, the data is from mid-2015:
NY - 22,452
DC - 13,856
Chicago - 7,700
SF "Bay Area" - 7,057
LA - 6,407
Boston - 4,423
Philly - 3,713
ATL - 3,329
Houston - 3,031
Dallas - 3,029


This is really surprising to me. Can't believe Chicago's market is almost half the size of DC's. Always figured it was NYC, Chicago/LA, and then DC/Bay Area

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Re: Bay Area legal market- even smaller than Chicago?

Postby foregetaboutdre » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:23 pm

Moneytrees wrote:
Wacked Wombat wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Its not. NYC then D.C.

v5junior wrote:Okay, that's what I thought. Was confused about this:

rpupkin wrote:Chicago is now only slightly bigger than SF/SV, and smaller than LA.

I don't know where DC ranks, but what I wrote is correct--or at least it was correct as of three or four years ago.


According to the Source provided above (which again only looks at the top 350 by attorney size law firms); Also, the data is from mid-2015:
NY - 22,452
DC - 13,856
Chicago - 7,700
SF "Bay Area" - 7,057
LA - 6,407
Boston - 4,423
Philly - 3,713
ATL - 3,329
Houston - 3,031
Dallas - 3,029


This is really surprising to me. Can't believe Chicago's market is almost half the size of DC's. Always figured it was NYC, Chicago/LA, and then DC/Bay Area


That stretch in the midwest has a lot of people. Wrapping around the lake in Indiana and then up to Milwaukee.



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