Why does Cravath take so many summers?

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Hikikomorist

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Hikikomorist » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

They should stand out with pay if they want to stand out for real.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers


This makes sense. I don't disagree.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby DCESQ » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:56 pm

Cravath, Swaine, and Moore (summers), it's right in the name.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:08 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

They should stand out with pay if they want to stand out for real.


Haha, I agree but I think the firm also takes pride in the fact that their compensation scheme has been the same way (100% lockstep) for 200 years and that their model is not reactionary. I do certainly wish their compensation reflected the fact that associates do actually work more because of aforementioned lean staffing.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:17 pm

Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

To 0Ls and law students maybe.


Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.

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axel.foley

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby axel.foley » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

To 0Ls and law students maybe.


Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.


+1. I've also heard many practitioners and professors agree with this characterization.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby dabigchina » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:34 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Because V1 prestige.

On a more serious note, it's not just the students. I have noticed professors and administrators using Cravath as a byword for "reputable Wall Street law firm".


Cravat IS a reputable Wall Street law firm, but that doesn't mean its summers are law school savants with feeder clerkships lined up.

I wasn't implying it was. I'm saying the weird mystique around the firm isn't created by law students.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:38 pm

[quote="proleteriate"]I don't understand, how/why do Cravath take 100 summers for a single office with less than 500 attys? Are there ~100 associates leaving every year? I understand some of these summers will go clerk for SCOTUS or something, but I'd imagine the majority of them will return right

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby lawdawg69 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:45 pm

I am a Partner at Cravath so I have some insight on this question. We lose about 50 of our summer hires each year to the judiciary. About 25 become Supreme Court Justices and the other 25 become appellate and district court judges. Feel free to PM me if you have other questions about Cravath.

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:04 pm

Never heard of anyone, professor, student, or attorney, refer to any firm as a "super firm." Sounds like TTT behavior.

Have heard a district judge give W&C as an example of a firm that consistently submits impeccable briefs.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby rpupkin » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:22 pm

axel.foley wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.


+1. I've also heard many practitioners and professors agree with this characterization.

I somehow got through three years of law school and several years of practice without encountering the term "super firm." I googled "super firm" and got a bunch of hits for mattresses. Eventually, though, I found this:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ner_ranks/

This article refers to Latham, Quinn, and Cooley as "super firms." Cravath and Wachtell apparently have a lot of company in the "super" category.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby esther0123 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:23 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Never heard of anyone, professor, student, or attorney, refer to any firm as a "super firm." Sounds like TTT behavior.

Have heard a district judge give W&C as an example of a firm that consistently submits impeccable briefs.


Not to dispute your experience, but I've heard this characterization from HYS Prof and a few partners in NYC firms during my own OCI call backs to their non-Cravath/Wachtell firms.

ETA: for clarification.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:39 pm

*is confused why a firm that doesn't take laterals would hire more summers*

*is not smart enough to work at Cravath*

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:51 pm

rpupkin wrote:
axel.foley wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.


+1. I've also heard many practitioners and professors agree with this characterization.

I somehow got through three years of law school and several years of practice without encountering the term "super firm." I googled "super firm" and got a bunch of hits for mattresses. Eventually, though, I found this:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ner_ranks/

This article refers to Latham, Quinn, and Cooley as "super firms." Cravath and Wachtell apparently have a lot of company in the "super" category.


Next you're going to tell me I'm not the only Super Lawyer smh

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Blackfish » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:23 pm

Nothing like another TLS prestige thread.

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star fox

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby star fox » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:02 pm

The no laterals thing is funny. Like the idea that a Davis Polk 4th year associate is just too tainted and beyond repair... like lol.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:33 pm

axel.foley wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

To 0Ls and law students maybe.


Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.


+1. I've also heard many practitioners and professors agree with this characterization.


I've heard similar reactions from investment bankers and CEOs, who in general had neutral reactions to the rest of the V10. So the reputation, at least in some circles, transcends the legal world.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby bearsfan23 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:04 pm

axel.foley wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

To 0Ls and law students maybe.


Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.


+1. I've also heard many practitioners and professors agree with this characterization.


+2. I asked my 6 year-old niece and she nodded, which I take as her also agreeing with this characterization.

The prestige of Cravath extends even to the 1st grade

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quiver

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby quiver » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:18 pm

star fox wrote:The no laterals thing is funny. Like the idea that a Davis Polk 4th year associate is just too tainted and beyond repair... like lol.

It sounds dumb, but there is a certain cravath culture. No laterals is an integral part of that culture.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:30 pm

quiver wrote:
star fox wrote:The no laterals thing is funny. Like the idea that a Davis Polk 4th year associate is just too tainted and beyond repair... like lol.

It sounds dumb, but there is a certain cravath culture. No laterals is an integral part of that culture.


Among my section mates/class mates at my school (HYS), Cravath's lack of laterals was seen as a small plus when compared to other firms like DPW where the relatively high number of laterals indicated there may have been a systemic issue with entry-level Associates being passed over for lateral Associates.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:59 pm

Laterals also don't work well with Cravath's rotational system for Corporate associates. A 4th year M&A DPW associate would rotate into a different practice group without any rotational experience. At this point, a 4th year CSM associate would have a couple rotations under the belt and would be more familiar with diving into an unknown practice.

I view CSM much in the same way I view Goldman Sachs. Don't think that GS is materially better than MS/Citi but for some reason or another GS has a certain cachet. With that being said, I can find you dozens of GS analysts who genuinely believe in their "culture" and non-ironically refer to their work as the "gold standard" ... there's kool aid in every industry.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby bearsfan23 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
quiver wrote:
star fox wrote:The no laterals thing is funny. Like the idea that a Davis Polk 4th year associate is just too tainted and beyond repair... like lol.

It sounds dumb, but there is a certain cravath culture. No laterals is an integral part of that culture.


Among my section mates/class mates at my school (HYS), Cravath's lack of laterals was seen as a small plus when compared to other firms like DPW where the relatively high number of laterals indicated there may have been a systemic issue with entry-level Associates being passed over for lateral Associates.


Only Harvard kids would worry about something like this

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:23 pm

axel.foley wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Npret wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

To 0Ls and law students maybe.


Actually I've heard of practitioners and professors describe Cravath (and Wachtell) as the two "super firms" so I think the elevated prestige perpetuates beyond the 0L's and students.


+1. I've also heard many practitioners and professors agree with this characterization.

I've also heard practitioners and professors agree with this general characterization (although I haven't heard the term "super firm"). Based on my admittedly anecdotal experience, my impression is that Cravath's reputation is somewhat superior to that of the other V10 firms (except Wachtell), particularly on the West Coast. Perhaps those NYC lawyers "in the know" regard DPW and S&C in the exact same light as Cravath, but there are at least some in the legal community (not just 0Ls and law students) who think otherwise.

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Johann » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers


how can you be a market leader on comp when your peer pays nearly 2x the salaries you pay?

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Re: Why does Cravath take so many summers?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:08 am

The whole "no-lateral" policy is really loose. Cravath definitely takes litigators coming off of clerkships who have both summered and, in some cases, worked for 1-2 years at other shops. It's really a "no lateraling straight from a firm" policy.



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