Williams & Connolly Forum

[viper11smith]

Hey TLS:

I'm a 1L at a T13 law school. I recently talked to a 3L who did a summer at Williams & Connolly, and the firm sounds like exactly where I want to be. I know I want to litigate, and he said that's all they do. Plus I am from DC.

I don't know much about firms at all. I know Skadden is hard to get a job at, but other than that I'm lost. What do people hear about Williams & Connolly? Also, what do I need to do to get a job?

Thank you!

[grades??]

if you have to ask, you probably wont be able to

[Mullens]

Hey TLS:

I'm a 1L at a T13 law school. I recently talked to a 3L who did a summer at Williams & Connolly, and the firm sounds like exactly where I want to be. I know I want to litigate, and he said that's all they do. Plus I am from DC.

I don't know much about firms at all. I know Skadden is hard to get a job at, but other than that I'm lost. What do people hear about Williams & Connolly? Also, what do I need to do to get a job?

Thank you!

Williams & Connolly is one of the most selective law firms in the country. You're gonna need very very good grades. Focusing on one firm is never a good idea. Just focus on doing as well as you can this semester and then worry about this more when you start OCI prep.

[bearsfan23]

You need to clerk 1st

[UVA2B]

if you have to ask, you probably wont be able to

This is perfect.

[grades??]

if you have to ask, you probably wont be able to

This is perfect.

but seriously. You KNOW if you will be in the running for WC if its a possibility.

[UVA2B]

if you have to ask, you probably wont be able to

This is perfect.

but seriously. You KNOW if you will be in the running for WC if its a possibility.

They held an event at UVA for 1Ls, and while I absolutely went (free food and drink, duh), I spent every conversation thinking, "my transcript would be ceremoniously burned if I submitted it to you."

[zhenders]

They are very selective, but contrary to popular belief, they do not require clerking first (though most do), and they do not only take tippy top grades (though they often do). Fit is actually very important for them.

-- a few W&C SA friends.

[rpupkin]

Hey TLS:

I'm a 1L at a T13 law school. I recently talked to a 3L who did a summer at Williams & Connolly, and the firm sounds like exactly where I want to be. I know I want to litigate, and he said that's all they do. Plus I am from DC.

I don't know much about firms at all. I know Skadden is hard to get a job at, but other than that I'm lost. What do people hear about Williams & Connolly? Also, what do I need to do to get a job?

If you're not a URM, you'll likely need to be at least in the top 5% - 10% of your class, especially if you're not at HYS. If you don't get a SA there, you'll have a second chance if you maintain excellent grades and then clerk.

Skadden isn't particularly hard to get a job at; it's not nearly as selective as W&C.

[rpupkin]

They are very selective, but contrary to popular belief, they do not require clerking first (though most do), and they do not only take tippy top grades (though they often do). Fit is actually very important for them.

That's largely true, though once you get into the bottom half of the T14, you pretty much do need tippy top grades to get a SA there. W&C is more flexible with grades in its post-clerkship hiring.

[RaceJudicata]

Don't get hung up on individual firms.

[Anonymous User]

They do send very nice rejection letters in the mail when they don't give you a callback though, so you've got that going for you, which is nice

[rpupkin]

Don't get hung up on individual firms.

Oh yeah . . . this too, OP.

[zhenders]

Don't get hung up on individual firms.

Oh yeah . . . this too, OP.

Yeah, +1 also -- there are plenty of great (as "biglaw great" goes) places to do litigation.

[PeanutsNJam]

Don't be fooled by Skadden's vault rank. It's noticeably easier to get than its "peers" (Sullivan, Cravath, DPW, etc.). Similarly, don't be fooled by Williams & Connolly's vault rank. It's much harder to get than any aforementioned firm (as has been discussed).

[Anonymous User]

Hey TLS:

I'm a 1L at a T13 law school. I recently talked to a 3L who did a summer at Williams & Connolly, and the firm sounds like exactly where I want to be. I know I want to litigate, and he said that's all they do. Plus I am from DC.

I don't know much about firms at all. I know Skadden is hard to get a job at, but other than that I'm lost. What do people hear about Williams & Connolly? Also, what do I need to do to get a job?

If you're not a URM, you'll likely need to be at least in the top 5% - 10% of your class, especially if you're not at HYS. If you don't get a SA there, you'll have a second chance if you maintain excellent grades and then clerk.

Skadden isn't particularly hard to get a job at; it's not nearly as selective as W&C.

Just chiming in to say you'll need top 5%-10% grades in general even if you are URM, especially if you're not at HYS. But Rpupkin's absolutely right that you'll have a second chance if you maintain great grades and clerk. Like 50% of the firm did not summer there.

Also, there are like 5-7 incoming first years who have not lined up clerkships/are not planning on clerking (of a summer class of 40), so they're definitely flexible on the whole clerkship front.

[howmanylits]

Off-topic a bit, but figured I'd ask. Anyone know if they adjusted salaries in response to the 2016 cravath bump? Can't find any info online, and uncomfortable to ask former classmates.

--interested clerk

[rpupkin]

Off-topic a bit, but figured I'd ask. Anyone know if they adjusted salaries in response to the 2016 cravath bump? Can't find any info online, and uncomfortable to ask former classmates.

--interested clerk

W&C raised their salaries a few months before the Cravath bump; as far as I know, W&C didn't re-raise after the market adjusted upward.

FYI, if you value top-of-the-market compensation, W&C is not the firm for you. Mid-level associates (and especially senior associates) make below market. It's been that way for a long time.

[howmanylits]

Off-topic a bit, but figured I'd ask. Anyone know if they adjusted salaries in response to the 2016 cravath bump? Can't find any info online, and uncomfortable to ask former classmates.

--interested clerk

W&C raised their salaries a few months before the Cravath bump; as far as I know, W&C didn't re-raise after the market adjusted upward.

FYI, if you value top-of-the-market compensation, W&C is not the firm for you. Mid-level associates (and especially senior associates) make below market. It's been that way for a long time.

Yea, from the outside-looking-in, the bump to 200k was in response to the bonus increases (which made their comp much lower for mids). Now that it's back to much lower (after salary bump), relatively speaking, wondered if they responded to the salary bump like they did the bonus bump.

I don't value top-of-the-market, but I do value being at the market. Don't need Kellogg, but Gibson/Cov/Wilmer-level comp would be nice.

[rpupkin]

Off-topic a bit, but figured I'd ask. Anyone know if they adjusted salaries in response to the 2016 cravath bump? Can't find any info online, and uncomfortable to ask former classmates.

--interested clerk

W&C raised their salaries a few months before the Cravath bump; as far as I know, W&C didn't re-raise after the market adjusted upward.

FYI, if you value top-of-the-market compensation, W&C is not the firm for you. Mid-level associates (and especially senior associates) make below market. It's been that way for a long time.

Yea, from the outside-looking-in, the bump to 200k was in response to the bonus increases (which made their comp much lower for mids). Now that it's back to much lower (after salary bump), relatively speaking, wondered if they responded to the salary bump like they did the bonus bump.

I don't value top-of-the-market, but I do value being at the market. Don't need Kellogg, but Gibson/Cov/Wilmer-level comp would be nice.

For what it's worth, KVN and MTO have also paid a bit below market for mid-level and senior associates, historically. If you go to a defense-oriented lit firm with low leverage, you're unlikely to see market or above. The low-leverage lit boutiques that pay well (e.g., McKool, Susman) do a ton of plaintiff-side work.

[Anonymous User]

+1 to everything everyone else said. W&C is uber-selective, really the most selective big firm in DC, which is already a grade-sensitive market. And also don't focus too much on one firm.

Of course W&C sounds great to the 1L mind. It's super prestigious, somewhat mysterious, has old-school DC roots, celebrity clients, and supposed "living legends" in some corner offices. And at least when I was a 1L an eon ago there were a bunch of untrue myths, too, that made it sound cool. ("They only fly first class, because if clients won't pay for first class, they can't afford W&C." "There are security cameras *everywhere* in their offices [LOL at 1L me who thought this was a good thing] because they work on such sensitive stuff." "They don't bill hours.")

I will say, having worked at another DC firm for 8 years and now in government, that I have a dimmer view of W&C than I used to. I have worked alongside and now against W&C attorneys, and while I'll chalk my personal feelings about some of them up to an unlucky sample, I think you would be wrong to think that they are the only firm in DC that does or can do what they do. There are tons of excellent litigators at firms that won't even be on a T13 student's radar screen, not to mention the top firms that you *will* consider. Apply, interview, and see how you feel -- but don't be "that guy" obsessed with this single firm that almost no one has a shot with.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Hey TLS:

I'm a junior varsity wide receiver. I recently talked to a WR who did a scholarship at Alabama, and the school sounds like exactly where I want to be. I know I want to run zone blocks, and he said that's all they do. Plus I am from Birmingham.

I don't know much about colleges at all. I know Ohio State is hard to get a scholarship at, but other than that I'm lost. What do people hear about Alabama? Also, what do I need to do to get a scholarship?

Thank you!

[Anonymous User]

Off-topic a bit, but figured I'd ask. Anyone know if they adjusted salaries in response to the 2016 cravath bump? Can't find any info online, and uncomfortable to ask former classmates.

--interested clerk

W&C raised their salaries a few months before the Cravath bump; as far as I know, W&C didn't re-raise after the market adjusted upward.

FYI, if you value top-of-the-market compensation, W&C is not the firm for you. Mid-level associates (and especially senior associates) make below market. It's been that way for a long time.

Yea, from the outside-looking-in, the bump to 200k was in response to the bonus increases (which made their comp much lower for mids). Now that it's back to much lower (after salary bump), relatively speaking, wondered if they responded to the salary bump like they did the bonus bump.

I don't value top-of-the-market, but I do value being at the market. Don't need Kellogg, but Gibson/Cov/Wilmer-level comp would be nice.

For what it's worth, KVN and MTO have also paid a bit below market for mid-level and senior associates, historically. If you go to a defense-oriented lit firm with low leverage, you're unlikely to see market or above. The low-leverage lit boutiques that pay well (e.g., McKool, Susman) do a ton of plaintiff-side work.

this one is kind of tough tho b/c at KVN and MTO at least, wouldn't you say *some* associates make below market years 5-7 (and at least as of last year, a handful will make above). If you value-in the substantially higher chance of making partner at year 8-9 at these lower leverage firms, it would still seem to be a stronger compensation proposition than firms on the strict cravath scale (even though nominal PPP will be lower).

[Nosso]

As others users have said: STOP worrying about individual firms. You want W&C because they litigate? There's countless law firms in DC that do that. The very best advice I ever got going into OCIs was to forget about bullshit vault rankings (no one except law students actually care about them) and focus more on the people you meet. You're going to be working terrible hours regardless of where you go. You might as well enjoy the people.

[FascinatedWanderer]

Wilkinson Walsh also pays way above market (more than Susman even this year) and I'm not under the impression they do much plaintiff's work.

I also disagree with the poster above who says W&C is the most selective firm in DC. The MTO DC office will be much more selective, and Kellogg Hansen is definitely pickier for post clerkship hiring.