Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

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kykiske

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby kykiske » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:47 am

^ That was me. Totally did not intend to anon post.

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:06 am

JackofLit wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Pokemon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The advice was not to not apply for jobs. It was to not apply to jobs that would care they were laid off.

If it's not on ATL that a firm had layoffs or widely known, anyone laid off is untouchable and the odds of interview to start date happening in under 6 weeks are very low. Even if OP had an offer, if they found out they were laid off, it's 9going to be rescinded.

And from a psychological standpoint, imagine you're super stressed about finding something - miracle, you did, just in time and then it's pulled because you're off the website and the new coworkers you were excited to meet, the paycheck, the mortgage, it's gone. It's a much harder situation to rebound from, and if the firm won't work with them, this is more likely than getting a similar job. The psychology has to be taken into account, because the getting fired is already depressing and OP was probably stealthed, which is also draining. If OP has an offer just to have pulled from under their feet, that's where the line of "this sucks" to feeling hopeless and it's a much harder place to rebound from regardless of how mentally strong someone is.

I'm not saying don't apply for any BL positions. I'm saying, at this point focus on most non-big law - I think in general, BL will try to only hire about 3 mo's after they know you were looking to specifically avoid hiring someone who was fired. Non-BL doesn't care as much.


Do you have experience with this or are you just bs-ing? Cause it seems pretty off.

Also mods, what is up with use of anon here? Really only op has said something anon-worthy on this thread.

This person is just using anon to spread BS. That post is cancer.

Getting fired/laid off for things that are NOT constantly blowing deadlines, spitting on a client, stealing from the firm, etc. will not prevent you from being hired. Would it be ideal to lateral under the guise that you're not being let go? Sure. But if you're off the website, there's no reason to try and hide it. Just spin your layoff in a positive way and highlight your value to the prospective firm (solid experience, excellent writing, etc.).


Been following this for awhile. I think he's overstating it, but the concern is real. It may be possible to just "be honest" about being laid off, and still successfully find a Biglaw/midlaw position somewhere. But the odds are against it. There are fifty qualified applicants for every such position.

Two cents to OP: You should be less focused right now on finding another Biglaw position or any "peer" position. You should be focused instead on finding any reasonable attorney position from which you can rebuild your career. Have you applied to every state government, local government, and small, local firm position in every state you're licensed? It is painful to slide down the ladder for awhile; it's more comfortable to just believe that you'll find something equivalent to your old job. Don't let that pain stop you from taking necessary steps to salvage your career.


OP here.

I have targeted exclusively law firms. I have interviews at a couple law firms that don't pay market, but are close

As someone with no debt that hates being a lawyer, I'd prefer to leave the law altogether than work for 60k in a government position.

A gap on my resume would make more sense in the context of a total career pivot, anyway.

1styearlateral

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:22 am

kykiske wrote:^ That was me. Totally did not intend to anon post.

Pretty funny though; the irony was going to make my sides launch into orbit.

But I agree, that anon poster needs to be outed ASAP.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:25 am

The anon people are complaining about is posting based on their own experience being laid off and being taken off the web site (I know it's not always clear which anon is who). So I'm not going to out them on the posts people disagree with in case the connection is clear to outside readers.

To be clear, that's also NOT endorsing their advice, which sounds, at the very least, very specific to their own idiosyncratic situation.

JackofLit

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby JackofLit » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
JackofLit wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Pokemon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The advice was not to not apply for jobs. It was to not apply to jobs that would care they were laid off.

If it's not on ATL that a firm had layoffs or widely known, anyone laid off is untouchable and the odds of interview to start date happening in under 6 weeks are very low. Even if OP had an offer, if they found out they were laid off, it's 9going to be rescinded.

And from a psychological standpoint, imagine you're super stressed about finding something - miracle, you did, just in time and then it's pulled because you're off the website and the new coworkers you were excited to meet, the paycheck, the mortgage, it's gone. It's a much harder situation to rebound from, and if the firm won't work with them, this is more likely than getting a similar job. The psychology has to be taken into account, because the getting fired is already depressing and OP was probably stealthed, which is also draining. If OP has an offer just to have pulled from under their feet, that's where the line of "this sucks" to feeling hopeless and it's a much harder place to rebound from regardless of how mentally strong someone is.

I'm not saying don't apply for any BL positions. I'm saying, at this point focus on most non-big law - I think in general, BL will try to only hire about 3 mo's after they know you were looking to specifically avoid hiring someone who was fired. Non-BL doesn't care as much.


Do you have experience with this or are you just bs-ing? Cause it seems pretty off.

Also mods, what is up with use of anon here? Really only op has said something anon-worthy on this thread.

This person is just using anon to spread BS. That post is cancer.

Getting fired/laid off for things that are NOT constantly blowing deadlines, spitting on a client, stealing from the firm, etc. will not prevent you from being hired. Would it be ideal to lateral under the guise that you're not being let go? Sure. But if you're off the website, there's no reason to try and hide it. Just spin your layoff in a positive way and highlight your value to the prospective firm (solid experience, excellent writing, etc.).


Been following this for awhile. I think he's overstating it, but the concern is real. It may be possible to just "be honest" about being laid off, and still successfully find a Biglaw/midlaw position somewhere. But the odds are against it. There are fifty qualified applicants for every such position.

Two cents to OP: You should be less focused right now on finding another Biglaw position or any "peer" position. You should be focused instead on finding any reasonable attorney position from which you can rebuild your career. Have you applied to every state government, local government, and small, local firm position in every state you're licensed? It is painful to slide down the ladder for awhile; it's more comfortable to just believe that you'll find something equivalent to your old job. Don't let that pain stop you from taking necessary steps to salvage your career.


OP here.

I have targeted exclusively law firms. I have interviews at a couple law firms that don't pay market, but are close

As someone with no debt that hates being a lawyer, I'd prefer to leave the law altogether than work for 60k in a government position.

A gap on my resume would make more sense in the context of a total career pivot, anyway.


Well, the grass is always greener. Can't say that saving your legal career should be a priority for you if you hate the law. And it's great that you have no debt - there are lots of other careers to explore. But if you think you're going to waltz into McKinsey or something, given this background....just saying: start developing an actual plan for what to do if you haven't landed a big firm job by the time your website time expires. Good luck.

BTW, a lot of really, really good attorneys developed and honed their skills in government positions and/or small firms. When I started as an AUSA, I didn't make much more than $60k. Careers are built long-term.

1styearlateral

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
JackofLit wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Pokemon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The advice was not to not apply for jobs. It was to not apply to jobs that would care they were laid off.

If it's not on ATL that a firm had layoffs or widely known, anyone laid off is untouchable and the odds of interview to start date happening in under 6 weeks are very low. Even if OP had an offer, if they found out they were laid off, it's 9going to be rescinded.

And from a psychological standpoint, imagine you're super stressed about finding something - miracle, you did, just in time and then it's pulled because you're off the website and the new coworkers you were excited to meet, the paycheck, the mortgage, it's gone. It's a much harder situation to rebound from, and if the firm won't work with them, this is more likely than getting a similar job. The psychology has to be taken into account, because the getting fired is already depressing and OP was probably stealthed, which is also draining. If OP has an offer just to have pulled from under their feet, that's where the line of "this sucks" to feeling hopeless and it's a much harder place to rebound from regardless of how mentally strong someone is.

I'm not saying don't apply for any BL positions. I'm saying, at this point focus on most non-big law - I think in general, BL will try to only hire about 3 mo's after they know you were looking to specifically avoid hiring someone who was fired. Non-BL doesn't care as much.


Do you have experience with this or are you just bs-ing? Cause it seems pretty off.

Also mods, what is up with use of anon here? Really only op has said something anon-worthy on this thread.

This person is just using anon to spread BS. That post is cancer.

Getting fired/laid off for things that are NOT constantly blowing deadlines, spitting on a client, stealing from the firm, etc. will not prevent you from being hired. Would it be ideal to lateral under the guise that you're not being let go? Sure. But if you're off the website, there's no reason to try and hide it. Just spin your layoff in a positive way and highlight your value to the prospective firm (solid experience, excellent writing, etc.).


Been following this for awhile. I think he's overstating it, but the concern is real. It may be possible to just "be honest" about being laid off, and still successfully find a Biglaw/midlaw position somewhere. But the odds are against it. There are fifty qualified applicants for every such position.

Two cents to OP: You should be less focused right now on finding another Biglaw position or any "peer" position. You should be focused instead on finding any reasonable attorney position from which you can rebuild your career. Have you applied to every state government, local government, and small, local firm position in every state you're licensed? It is painful to slide down the ladder for awhile; it's more comfortable to just believe that you'll find something equivalent to your old job. Don't let that pain stop you from taking necessary steps to salvage your career.


OP here.

I have targeted exclusively law firms. I have interviews at a couple law firms that don't pay market, but are close

As someone with no debt that hates being a lawyer, I'd prefer to leave the law altogether than work for 60k in a government position.

A gap on my resume would make more sense in the context of a total career pivot, anyway.

The problem is, without connections and a willingness to literally start at the bottom (and from the beginning), it's nearly impossible to leave the law. And that problem becomes harder to circumvent the longer you are practicing law.

barcoach

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby barcoach » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:52 am

Yes find a recruiter and yes be honest with them.

foregetaboutdre

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby foregetaboutdre » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:57 am

If you did labor and want to leave law you can always try the HR side. E.g. look for jobs with "labor relations" etc..

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 02, 2017 8:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It depends on the firm. My experience at Dechert was I was pulled literally mid-surgery after 5-6 weeks of being on the site without being told. The CB's and line of interviews were canceled, and I was back at square one. My advice to anyone is if during the 3 months, if you have something malignant and a doctor says you need surgery, postpone. You can't assume it's 3 months. Even if the risk, say, a 5-10% chance of grave risk (which it's never that high), it's better than being on the hook for treatments. You should be checking the site every day, and as I learned the hard way, never assume you will be on there tomorrow. Make every minute count, especially if you're at a firm that will surprise pull you. The biggest mistake of the career was taking a doctor's advice over my professional judgment. i think if they find out you're diagnosed with any significant health issue during the 3 months, there's financial incentives to pull you can prove if they found out. That may not be what happened here and may not be indicative of other firms, but it's imperative to postpone any "necessary" medical procedure until you find something


The user accounts and website profiles are generally automated. I left Dechert within the last year. I gave them a final date of employment but it changed due to some emergency client needs. Someone forgot to inform HR/IT and my access to the system and my profile on the webpage were removed a week early.

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thexfactor

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby thexfactor » Thu May 04, 2017 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It depends on the firm. My experience at Dechert was I was pulled literally mid-surgery after 5-6 weeks of being on the site without being told. The CB's and line of interviews were canceled, and I was back at square one. My advice to anyone is if during the 3 months, if you have something malignant and a doctor says you need surgery, postpone. You can't assume it's 3 months. Even if the risk, say, a 5-10% chance of grave risk (which it's never that high), it's better than being on the hook for treatments. You should be checking the site every day, and as I learned the hard way, never assume you will be on there tomorrow. Make every minute count, especially if you're at a firm that will surprise pull you. The biggest mistake of the career was taking a doctor's advice over my professional judgment. i think if they find out you're diagnosed with any significant health issue during the 3 months, there's financial incentives to pull you can prove if they found out. That may not be what happened here and may not be indicative of other firms, but it's imperative to postpone any "necessary" medical procedure until you find something


I think this is terrible advice. If it is something that is elective and extremely important then you should probably put it off. However, If you need surgery, you get surgery asap. You don't want to risk your long term health or life over a job. You can always find another job, even another biglaw job, but you can't count on having your health...

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 04, 2017 6:34 pm

Is it a death sentence to be pulled from the website?

The firm has said it will provide a reference and will say I left on my own volition.

Could I travel or come up with another narrative to explain resume gap, or is biglaw lost forever?

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 05, 2017 10:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:Is it a death sentence to be pulled from the website?

The firm has said it will provide a reference and will say I left on my own volition.

Could I travel or come up with another narrative to explain resume gap, or is biglaw lost forever?


This is based on my personal experience (fired before) and what I have seen in the market...
If you are activity applying and interviewing, then yes, removal from the website is an assumed death blow.

The firm's words are nice, but very few professional employers will say anything re: a former employee and law firms would back channel anyway.

Your best bet maybe to pivot/have a "life moment", where you move to Bangkok and fight for democracy or take up rafting in Montana and then come back to the job hunt in 6 to 12 months. Making the move seem as if it is of your own volition is key to me....and then you have to show a reaffirmed commitment to the job and hope for a decently hot lateral market. I have seen more than a few people do this in top rung NY firms.

Tl:dr, easier to hop employed to employed, no one wants a fired junior when their so many apps out there, make it seem like your acting from a place of strength.

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Yugihoe

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Yugihoe » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:20 pm

OP, can we get an update? Hope you ended up on your feet.

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:30 pm

.

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:56 pm

Would joining a start-up work as a "life pivot"? I've heard that while most early stage start-ups don't want/or can't pay for legal services, they would be all over a lawyer offering their services for free or token consideration and a nice resume line. Sucks to work for free, but wondering if that would be an alternative to taking up rafting in Montana (although admittedly that sounds way more exciting...)

Good luck, OP!

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Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would joining a start-up work as a "life pivot"? I've heard that while most early stage start-ups don't want/or can't pay for legal services, they would be all over a lawyer offering their services for free or token consideration and a nice resume line. Sucks to work for free, but wondering if that would be an alternative to taking up rafting in Montana (although admittedly that sounds way more exciting...)

Good luck, OP!


As someone that has considered doing this - you have absolutely no idea how to do the tasks that would be asked of you.

Its true that, to some extent, everyone is learning on the job at a start up. But just know going in that a 2nd year associate doesn't have much to offer a start up in need of legal advice.



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