Page 2 of 4

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:06 pm
by Anonymous User
Junior here, got 2 callbacks, 4 other first-rounds since layoff. 0 offer because either other candidates had more experience or the outstanding offer was eventually accepted. Just because there are openings out there or firms are still interviewing doesn't mean the position is actually available. It's a lot more competitive than OCI callbacks.

My take away is a good recruiter might be able to get you interviews faster and get you one jump ahead. I felt like I'm always late to the interview process, obviously my credentials are good enough to get interviews in the first place, but someone else was always able to get interviewed first. Maybe they used recruiters idk.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:32 pm
by Anonymous User
OP here

I have submitted my materials to most of the firms in my target market - should I still reach out to a recruiter?

Anyone have any advice on vetting recruiters? Not sure how to determine what separates a good one from a bad one.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:36 pm
by Anonymous User
Anon above, I emailed most of the big firms myself too, one drawback is it's so hard to follow up on these firms. I just started using a recruiter who was recommended by a friend. Recruiters might have better information on amlaw100 firms I think. Unfortunately I don't know how to vet them, and I haven't see any magic done yet.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:45 am
by Anonymous User
OP here

If I could figure out a way to get a non-legal job, I would surely do it at this point. All efforts to land a job in the Non-NYC market have failed, and I seem doomed to continue in this career for now. I have no debt, but I also have a liberal arts degree and no work experience.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:03 am
by Anonymous User
Did you go to a T13 school?

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:06 am
by gaddockteeg
Anonymous User wrote:OP here

I have submitted my materials to most of the firms in my target market - should I still reach out to a recruiter?

Anyone have any advice on vetting recruiters? Not sure how to determine what separates a good one from a bad one.


Yes, get a recruiter.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:44 am
by Anonymous User
Is the lateral market for juniors this bad? I feel like you have stellar credentials. And use a recruiter and start applying to gov jobs.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:55 am
by Anonymous User
I think the market for people with 1 year of corporate experience isnt great, even from a V10 firm. While there are a ton of corporate positions available, there are also a lot of potential laterals as well. 1 year of experience isn't a whole lot, especially at a V10 where you probably do less substantive work than someone at a V100.

I was at a regional big law firm and tried to lateral after my first year. I didn't get any traction at all. However, that all changed once I got 2 years under my belt. Maybe the other factor was that I had a niche specialty that was pretty in demand as well.

Why would a firm hire someone with 1 year vs someone with 2-3 years of experience. There are more than enough people with 2-3 years experience that want to lateral and go to a new firm.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:12 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:I think the market for people with 1 year of corporate experience isnt great, even from a V10 firm. While there are a ton of corporate positions available, there are also a lot of potential laterals as well. 1 year of experience isn't a whole lot, especially at a V10 where you probably do less substantive work than someone at a V100.

I was at a regional big law firm and tried to lateral after my first year. I didn't get any traction at all. However, that all changed once I got 2 years under my belt. Maybe the other factor was that I had a niche specialty that was pretty in demand as well.

Why would a firm hire someone with 1 year vs someone with 2-3 years of experience. There are more than enough people with 2-3 years experience that want to lateral and go to a new firm.


This. Fcking tough out there.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:46 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:I think the market for people with 1 year of corporate experience isnt great, even from a V10 firm. While there are a ton of corporate positions available, there are also a lot of potential laterals as well. 1 year of experience isn't a whole lot, especially at a V10 where you probably do less substantive work than someone at a V100.

I was at a regional big law firm and tried to lateral after my first year. I didn't get any traction at all. However, that all changed once I got 2 years under my belt. Maybe the other factor was that I had a niche specialty that was pretty in demand as well.

Why would a firm hire someone with 1 year vs someone with 2-3 years of experience. There are more than enough people with 2-3 years experience that want to lateral and go to a new firm.


I think the only way it makes sense is if you are changing regions and/or practice groups (with the latter being the stronger position) and that practice group is booming or has high attrition early on.

-OP

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:53 pm
by 1styearlateral
Anonymous User wrote:I was at a regional big law firm and tried to lateral after my first year. I didn't get any traction at all. However, that all changed once I got 2 years under my belt. Maybe the other factor was that I had a niche specialty that was pretty in demand as well.

Why would a firm hire someone with 1 year vs someone with 2-3 years of experience. There are more than enough people with 2-3 years experience that want to lateral and go to a new firm.

This has been my experience. I'm a 2015 grad. Last year I got zero traction. Since Jan. of this year, I've had 1 callback and 5 first-round interviews. I suspect that by next year I will have even more options. I think the sweet spot is year 3-5.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:10 pm
by Anonymous User
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I was at a regional big law firm and tried to lateral after my first year. I didn't get any traction at all. However, that all changed once I got 2 years under my belt. Maybe the other factor was that I had a niche specialty that was pretty in demand as well.

Why would a firm hire someone with 1 year vs someone with 2-3 years of experience. There are more than enough people with 2-3 years experience that want to lateral and go to a new firm.
I think the sweet spot is year 3-5.


3-5 years is definitely the sweet spot, but by then you're likely pigeonholed into a particular group unless you are coming from a general corporate practice.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:31 am
by Anonymous User
OP here. Just got rejected from a firm I thought I had great chances with. Did 3 rounds of interviews then got the ding email.

Currently have no interviews set up. Hoping to get some interviews out of the informational meetings I have, but I'll need some luck as it doesn't seem like most firms are hiring at my level.

1 month left of severance. Haven't yet asked for more website time.

Any ideas on alternate career paths? I really don't care not being a lawyer as long as I can support myself.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:59 am
by Anonymous User
Did you already sign a severance agreement with your firm waiving all employment claims? People should not sign these agreements unless they are given at least 6 months on the website.

You have leverage to drive the terms of a severance agreement. The firm is going to do anything within reason to make sure you do not sue them.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:08 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Did you already sign a severance agreement with your firm waiving all employment claims? People should not sign these agreements unless they are given at least 6 months on the website.

You have leverage to drive the terms of a severance agreement. The firm is going to do anything within reason to make sure you do not sue them.


I have not yet signed anything. I also believe that the firing process did not follow protocol - I never received a "mid year review" after my first rotation (every other group got one, I never did). My year end review wasn't overwhelmingly positive, but no indication was made that I was going to be let go. Then all of my feedback/reviews after the year end review were positive. I know this from speaking to a partner that I was close with.

I think they have dropped the ball not getting my signature on this - I haven't even received any agreement/package. How should I contact them and broach this?

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:08 am
by nunumaster
Anonymous User wrote:Did you already sign a severance agreement with your firm waiving all employment claims? People should not sign these agreements unless they are given at least 6 months on the website.

You have leverage to drive the terms of a severance agreement. The firm is going to do anything within reason to make sure you do not sue them.

'
Sue them for what? I don't see how you have leverage if there was no illicit reason for the termination. It's an at-will contract.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:25 am
by Anonymous User
nunumaster wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Did you already sign a severance agreement with your firm waiving all employment claims? People should not sign these agreements unless they are given at least 6 months on the website.

You have leverage to drive the terms of a severance agreement. The firm is going to do anything within reason to make sure you do not sue them.

'
Sue them for what? I don't see how you have leverage if there was no illicit reason for the termination. It's an at-will contract.


Bullying now constitutes sexual harassment under most laws. Most partners engage in this kind of behavior at least on occasion. Nearly every biglaw associate has been harassed in what is likely a legally actionable manner at some point. If you don't sign the form, the firm will get scared.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:01 pm
by RaceJudicata
Anonymous User wrote:
nunumaster wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Did you already sign a severance agreement with your firm waiving all employment claims? People should not sign these agreements unless they are given at least 6 months on the website.

You have leverage to drive the terms of a severance agreement. The firm is going to do anything within reason to make sure you do not sue them.

'
Sue them for what? I don't see how you have leverage if there was no illicit reason for the termination. It's an at-will contract.


Bullying now constitutes sexual harassment under most laws. Most partners engage in this kind of behavior at least on occasion. Nearly every biglaw associate has been harassed in what is likely a legally actionable manner at some point. If you don't sign the form, the firm will get scared.


And if OP is a male? Good luck finding a lawyer who will take on this sort of case. And enjoy tanking your career in the process. You have no leverage whatsoever.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:05 pm
by cheaptilts
Anonymous User wrote:Did you already sign a severance agreement with your firm waiving all employment claims? People should not sign these agreements unless they are given at least 6 months on the website.

You have leverage to drive the terms of a severance agreement. The firm is going to do anything within reason to make sure you do not sue them.

What am I missing here

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:00 pm
by Hutz_and_Goodman
I've never heard of a firm being sued for bullying and the only time I would ever advise someone to do this is if they were planning to change careers and not work as an attorney in the future.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:09 pm
by jarofsoup
Some firms will give you more time to look. I know the V10s often will second people to try to get rid of them more gently.

A lot of these firms don't want you to one day be at a client and move business away from the firm because you were disposed off in an nasty way.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:50 pm
by Anonymous User
Lets take talk of "leverage" I have against the firm off the table - I am not going that route. I hope that my cooperation and, in my opinion, unusual/unjustified termination will result in some reciprocal cooperation from the firm. If not, I will move forward as best I can.

Let's say I don't find anything before my time on the website is up. Would it be sabotaging my career if I took a month+ to go travel? I realize it delays my future employment, but I could do some light e-mail leg work while traveling and come back once I have interviews lined up. Anyone have experience doing this?

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:02 pm
by Anonymous User
I am a 2015 grad who got fired before the end of 2016.

1. I negotiated more website time to 6 months. Though this was originally 3 month + a month to month basis. I didnt bash my firm during this time. they didnt make me sign shit. At the end of the 5th month i was getting the sense they wouldnt give me another month and kinda subtly threatened them "I need more time etc. it wont hurt the firm giving me more time, i have been good as far as the firm is concerned, i have been quiet, its not like i am going and talking to above the law or anything... please give me more time"

2. Recruiters are a mixed bag. I used 5 recruiters (side note: fuck them trying to get me to be exclusive) 4 recruiters applied to nearly 50 jobs and got me 0 interviews, one recruiter got me an in-house offer, and one recruiter got me 10 interviews and ultimately an offer. These were bottom end of v100 or smaller shops mostly, with one or 2 v50's. the difference being, that one recruiter was really trying and was good and cared.

3. It is easier to get those bottom v100 spots. My pitch was basically, everything is going really well at X firm, but there is definitely a certain feel for a 1000+ lawyer law firm ... i find i do my best work in the smaller more collegial groups at my firm and thats a dynamic im looking to find at a firm. blah blah blah this firm has that also best of both worlds bullshit since also top quality work etc.

4. I wouldn't tell recruiter or firm you are interviewing with anything about getting fired nor about firm finances or wtvr, use #3 or make something else up.

5. I got some decent traction outside of nyc (i was in a nyc firm). this is because the move makes more logical sense if it is for geographical reasons. also non-nyc firms are usually more hungry for nyc talent.

6. ASK FOR MORE TIME ON WEBSITE

7. this is extremely difficult emotionally, stay strong and dont go on vacation until you down with this. this next move is hugely important.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:16 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:I am a 2015 grad who got fired before the end of 2016.

1. I negotiated more website time to 6 months. Though this was originally 3 month + a month to month basis. I didnt bash my firm during this time. they didnt make me sign shit. At the end of the 5th month i was getting the sense they wouldnt give me another month and kinda subtly threatened them "I need more time etc. it wont hurt the firm giving me more time, i have been good as far as the firm is concerned, i have been quiet, its not like i am going and talking to above the law or anything... please give me more time"

2. Recruiters are a mixed bag. I used 5 recruiters (side note: fuck them trying to get me to be exclusive) 4 recruiters applied to nearly 50 jobs and got me 0 interviews, one recruiter got me an in-house offer, and one recruiter got me 10 interviews and ultimately an offer. These were bottom end of v100 or smaller shops mostly, with one or 2 v50's. the difference being, that one recruiter was really trying and was good and cared.

3. It is easier to get those bottom v100 spots. My pitch was basically, everything is going really well at X firm, but there is definitely a certain feel for a 1000+ lawyer law firm ... i find i do my best work in the smaller more collegial groups at my firm and thats a dynamic im looking to find at a firm. blah blah blah this firm has that also best of both worlds bullshit since also top quality work etc.

4. I wouldn't tell recruiter or firm you are interviewing with anything about getting fired nor about firm finances or wtvr, use #3 or make something else up.

5. I got some decent traction outside of nyc (i was in a nyc firm). this is because the move makes more logical sense if it is for geographical reasons. also non-nyc firms are usually more hungry for nyc talent.

6. ASK FOR MORE TIME ON WEBSITE

7. this is extremely difficult emotionally, stay strong and dont go on vacation until you down with this. this next move is hugely important.


OP here.

I am worried its too late to ask for more time, with only a month remaining. I am going to ask first thing monday.

How was the in house offer? I would jump at that if compensation was tolerable.

Re: Fired 2nd Year BigLaw Associate - Help

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:39 pm
by thexfactor
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am a 2015 grad who got fired before the end of 2016.

1. I negotiated more website time to 6 months. Though this was originally 3 month + a month to month basis. I didnt bash my firm during this time. they didnt make me sign shit. At the end of the 5th month i was getting the sense they wouldnt give me another month and kinda subtly threatened them "I need more time etc. it wont hurt the firm giving me more time, i have been good as far as the firm is concerned, i have been quiet, its not like i am going and talking to above the law or anything... please give me more time"

2. Recruiters are a mixed bag. I used 5 recruiters (side note: fuck them trying to get me to be exclusive) 4 recruiters applied to nearly 50 jobs and got me 0 interviews, one recruiter got me an in-house offer, and one recruiter got me 10 interviews and ultimately an offer. These were bottom end of v100 or smaller shops mostly, with one or 2 v50's. the difference being, that one recruiter was really trying and was good and cared.

3. It is easier to get those bottom v100 spots. My pitch was basically, everything is going really well at X firm, but there is definitely a certain feel for a 1000+ lawyer law firm ... i find i do my best work in the smaller more collegial groups at my firm and thats a dynamic im looking to find at a firm. blah blah blah this firm has that also best of both worlds bullshit since also top quality work etc.

4. I wouldn't tell recruiter or firm you are interviewing with anything about getting fired nor about firm finances or wtvr, use #3 or make something else up.

5. I got some decent traction outside of nyc (i was in a nyc firm). this is because the move makes more logical sense if it is for geographical reasons. also non-nyc firms are usually more hungry for nyc talent.

6. ASK FOR MORE TIME ON WEBSITE

7. this is extremely difficult emotionally, stay strong and dont go on vacation until you down with this. this next move is hugely important.


OP here.

I am worried its too late to ask for more time, with only a month remaining. I am going to ask first thing monday.

How was the in house offer? I would jump at that if compensation was tolerable.


Wow inhouse is really impressive with 1 year of experience, especially coming from corporate. Most inhouse jobs want at least 2.

I bet they will give you more time. Ask for 3 more months and tell them you are doing your best to find a job. I would be very nice to them as well.