Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

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Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:37 pm

I wanted to check in and see what TLSers knew about the success of transfers at non HYSCCN schools in the T14 during OCI's or EIW...

jphiggo
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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby jphiggo » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:04 pm

Some are successful. Some aren't. You'll be judged, for the most part, on your 1L grades. You need to get a lot more specific with your questions.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:32 pm

jphiggo wrote:Some are successful. Some aren't. You'll be judged, for the most part, on your 1L grades. You need to get a lot more specific with your questions.


Fair enough...I guess the assumption is that, as a transfer, the student would have and A/ A- average and good 1L summer work...Specifically interested in big law outcomes for transfers to GULC, UCLA, and UC Berkeley compared to non-transfer students. I am worried that there would be some auto-dings because of transfer status...

For my specific purposes, think slightly older student (30) and successful, non-legal work history.

Please let me know if any other info would be helpful for this thread.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby jphiggo » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
jphiggo wrote:Some are successful. Some aren't. You'll be judged, for the most part, on your 1L grades. You need to get a lot more specific with your questions.


Fair enough...I guess the assumption is that, as a transfer, the student would have and A/ A- average and good 1L summer work...Specifically interested in big law outcomes for transfers to GULC, UCLA, and UC Berkeley compared to non-transfer students. I am worried that there would be some auto-dings because of transfer status...

For my specific purposes, think slightly older student (30) and successful, non-legal work history.

Please let me know if any other info would be helpful for this thread.


PM me, happy to provide you insight about Cal.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:51 pm

I transferred to UC Berkeley. OCI was brutal for me. 1 CB, no offer. Got my offer via mass mail.

Other transfers I know got offers, though.

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Harvard_Naw
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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Harvard_Naw » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:11 pm

Being someone that transferred from a TTTT school to a lower T-14 and ended up receiving a Biglaw offer through OCI, I think so much of OCI success has to do with your personality and whether you can have an intelligent conversation with someone for about 20 minutes.

Granted, students with great resumes and excellent GPAs are obviously in a much better position than you. However, there aren't enough of those people to fill all of the SA positions in Biglaw. IMO, GPA is not much of a factor in terms of getting a job with a firm outside of the V15-20. Being a transfer, you likely have a really good GPA, but firms aren't going to give much weight to that and will likely just lump you in with the rest of the average students at your new, lower T-14 school.

Don't get me wrong, there are outliers. I have a buddy who transferred from Mich. St. to Michigan and got a job at Skadden. I also have a buddy that transferred from Wake Forest to GULC and got a job at an excellent Biglaw firm working in their Islamic Finance department (granted, this guy was also fluent in Arabic).

So, because you're a transfer, I think you'll likely be auto-dinged by the firms at the very top. But your OCI success will largely be dependent on how you present yourself during your OCI interviews and callbacks and whether you seem like an intelligent guy/girl that people can put up with and is able to handle the workload.

Take this for what its worth, but I went to an unranked state school for undergrad, didn't have much academic honors, attended a TTTT school, and my legal experience was limited to small-firm work and a state court judicial externship. I think I just did a good job of presenting myself as a likable person that worked really hard.

Good luck!

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby jphiggo » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:16 pm

Harvard_Naw wrote:[I] think so much of OCI success has to do with your personality and whether you can have an intelligent conversation with someone for about 20 minutes.


This is credited, imo.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:22 pm

Harvard_Naw wrote:Being someone that transferred from a TTTT school to a lower T-14 and ended up receiving a Biglaw offer through OCI, I think so much of OCI success has to do with your personality and whether you can have an intelligent conversation with someone for about 20 minutes.

Granted, students with great resumes and excellent GPAs are obviously in a much better position than you. However, there aren't enough of those people to fill all of the SA positions in Biglaw. IMO, GPA is not much of a factor in terms of getting a job with a firm outside of the V15-20. Being a transfer, you likely have a really good GPA, but firms aren't going to give much weight to that and will likely just lump you in with the rest of the average students at your new, lower T-14 school.

Don't get me wrong, there are outliers. I have a buddy who transferred from Mich. St. to Michigan and got a job at Skadden. I also have a buddy that transferred from Wake Forest to GULC and got a job at an excellent Biglaw firm working in their Islamic Finance department (granted, this guy was also fluent in Arabic).

So, because you're a transfer, I think you'll likely be auto-dinged by the firms at the very top. But your OCI success will largely be dependent on how you present yourself during your OCI interviews and callbacks and whether you seem like an intelligent guy/girl that people can put up with and is able to handle the workload.

Take this for what its worth, but I went to an unranked state school for undergrad, didn't have much academic honors, attended a TTTT school, and my legal experience was limited to small-firm work and a state court judicial externship. I think I just did a good job of presenting myself as a likable person that worked really hard.

Good luck!


OP here:

Thanks for the response. The school I am at places about 10% in firms with 100+ attorneys. If I were to stay, and have even a slightly worse performance, I should be around top 5-10%. So, to me, it seems like I am betting on myself in either scenario...

Would you be inclined to stay or go (right now 25% Scholly)?

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Harvard_Naw » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
OP here:

Thanks for the response. The school I am at places about 10% in firms with 100+ attorneys. If I were to stay, and have even a slightly worse performance, I should be around top 5-10%. So, to me, it seems like I am betting on myself in either scenario...

Would you be inclined to stay or go (right now 25% Scholly)?



There are so many factors that go into this decision besides the likelihood of Biglaw placement (debt, family, QOL, etc.). But, if your sole reason for transferring is to get a job in Biglaw, I don't think I would transfer to a lower T-14. Nothing is guaranteed, especially when you're a transfer, because it seems like non-transfers with higher GPAs and great resumes are favored (and rightfully so) over transfer students.

Will you have more job opportunities at a lower T-14 than where you are now? Almost certainly, yes. But are those opportunities something you're even interested in? Maybe not. Maybe for you, it's either Biglaw or go back to your hometown? If you don't get a job in Biglaw, will the debt cripple you (transfers receive no scholarship money)? Are you more confident in your ability to land in the top 5-10% at your current school than in your ability to present yourself to OCI interviewers, or vice-versa? These are all things that you have to think about before you make the decision to transfer.

Also, keep in mind that an acceptance to another school will give you leverage in negotiating for a better scholarship with your current school.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby malibustacy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Being someone that transferred from a TTTT school to a lower T-14 and ended up receiving a Biglaw offer through OCI, I think so much of OCI success has to do with your personality and whether you can have an intelligent conversation with someone for about 20 minutes.

Granted, students with great resumes and excellent GPAs are obviously in a much better position than you. However, there aren't enough of those people to fill all of the SA positions in Biglaw. IMO, GPA is not much of a factor in terms of getting a job with a firm outside of the V15-20. Being a transfer, you likely have a really good GPA, but firms aren't going to give much weight to that and will likely just lump you in with the rest of the average students at your new, lower T-14 school.

Don't get me wrong, there are outliers. I have a buddy who transferred from Mich. St. to Michigan and got a job at Skadden. I also have a buddy that transferred from Wake Forest to GULC and got a job at an excellent Biglaw firm working in their Islamic Finance department (granted, this guy was also fluent in Arabic).

So, because you're a transfer, I think you'll likely be auto-dinged by the firms at the very top. But your OCI success will largely be dependent on how you present yourself during your OCI interviews and callbacks and whether you seem like an intelligent guy/girl that people can put up with and is able to handle the workload.

Take this for what its worth, but I went to an unranked state school for undergrad, didn't have much academic honors, attended a TTTT school, and my legal experience was limited to small-firm work and a state court judicial externship. I think I just did a good job of presenting myself as a likable person that worked really hard.

Good luck!


OP here:

Thanks for the response. The school I am at places about 10% in firms with 100+ attorneys. If I were to stay, and have even a slightly worse performance, I should be around top 5-10%. So, to me, it seems like I am betting on myself in either scenario...

Would you be inclined to stay or go (right now 25% Scholly)?


I'd transfer if you're only getting a 25% scholarship, unless you really like where you are now or can ask for more money.

The T14 degree will look a lot more impressive on your resume. And the "100+ lawyer" job you can get out of a T14 might be a lot more different from what you can get from your current school.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Wacked Wombat » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Harvard_Naw wrote:Being someone that transferred from a TTTT school to a lower T-14 and ended up receiving a Biglaw offer through OCI, I think so much of OCI success has to do with your personality and whether you can have an intelligent conversation with someone for about 20 minutes.

Granted, students with great resumes and excellent GPAs are obviously in a much better position than you. However, there aren't enough of those people to fill all of the SA positions in Biglaw. IMO, GPA is not much of a factor in terms of getting a job with a firm outside of the V15-20. Being a transfer, you likely have a really good GPA, but firms aren't going to give much weight to that and will likely just lump you in with the rest of the average students at your new, lower T-14 school.

Don't get me wrong, there are outliers. I have a buddy who transferred from Mich. St. to Michigan and got a job at Skadden. I also have a buddy that transferred from Wake Forest to GULC and got a job at an excellent Biglaw firm working in their Islamic Finance department (granted, this guy was also fluent in Arabic).

So, because you're a transfer, I think you'll likely be auto-dinged by the firms at the very top. But your OCI success will largely be dependent on how you present yourself during your OCI interviews and callbacks and whether you seem like an intelligent guy/girl that people can put up with and is able to handle the workload.

Take this for what its worth, but I went to an unranked state school for undergrad, didn't have much academic honors, attended a TTTT school, and my legal experience was limited to small-firm work and a state court judicial externship. I think I just did a good job of presenting myself as a likable person that worked really hard.

Good luck!


OP here:

Thanks for the response. The school I am at places about 10% in firms with 100+ attorneys. If I were to stay, and have even a slightly worse performance, I should be around top 5-10%. So, to me, it seems like I am betting on myself in either scenario...

Would you be inclined to stay or go (right now 25% Scholly)?


I'm a 2L at a school with a similar BigLaw rate. I was in a similar spot as you. Ended up with multiple BigLaw offers across major markets. Feel free to PM me.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:51 pm

I transferred from a TTT to T14 and snagged an offer for biglaw. My TTT did 10% into decent sized firms as well. Even though I was top of the class, I did NOT want to take a high probability of not getting a biglaw job from my TTT then being forced to work a job I wasn't interested in in hopes of just trying to lateral into biglaw later.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I wanted to check in and see what TLSers knew about the success of transfers at non HYSCCN schools in the T14 during OCI's or EIW...


In terms of grades, firms will look at your grades during 2L OCI the same as if you stayed at your current school. For example, if you went to Cooley your 1L year and ended with a 3.95, transfer to GULC, and do your 2L OCI at GULC, the firms you interview with at GULC will look at you as a 3.95 GPA Cooley student (i.e. there's no magical formula that they apply to your grades from your current school to covert them into GULC grades). The big thing you get immediately by transferring is access to the T14's OCI, which for most T14s is lottery-based. This can be massively helpful if you have a personality that shines during that 20 minute interview (this is what people are talking about in the other responses), and access to the schools T14's OCI will likely lead to many screener interviews at firms that would never have seriously considered you had you applied through a mass mailing of your application. Given that you're only at a 25% scholarship, I'd transfer unless your current school is willing to increase that scholarship by a lot (after you get your t14 acceptance).

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:20 pm

I didn't go to a prestigious undergrad and didn't graduate from there with honors. I transferred from an unranked TTTT to lower T14, finished 1L top 1%. I had an unconventional summer position set up for 1L summer, but employer didn't like that I was transferring so that fell thru & I ended up doing non-legal work 1L summer. Fast forward couple of months to OCI, I targeted smaller markets and I got about 3 CB's but no offer. At this point I mass mailed other firms in the smaller market and every single NYC firm. Surprisingly got 2 V10 straight-to-CB's from doing so and took an offer from one of them.

As others have said, a lot will depend on your personality and how well you interview. I struck out early b/c I come from a very humble blue collar background and really had no experience dealing with the type of people that were interviewing me, which is a sorry ass excuse but is the truth. With practice I got better and was successful. A lot also depends on what market you target, the larger the market the better your chances of success. Typical rule of thumb GPA wise is to deduct 0.3 off your old school GPA to equate it to a GPA at new transfer school.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:41 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I wanted to check in and see what TLSers knew about the success of transfers at non HYSCCN schools in the T14 during OCI's or EIW...


In terms of grades, firms will look at your grades during 2L OCI the same as if you stayed at your current school. For example, if you went to Cooley your 1L year and ended with a 3.95, transfer to GULC, and do your 2L OCI at GULC, the firms you interview with at GULC will look at you as a 3.95 GPA Cooley student (i.e. there's no magical formula that they apply to your grades from your current school to covert them into GULC grades). The big thing you get immediately by transferring is access to the T14's OCI, which for most T14s is lottery-based. This can be massively helpful if you have a personality that shines during that 20 minute interview (this is what people are talking about in the other responses), and access to the schools T14's OCI will likely lead to many screener interviews at firms that would never have seriously considered you had you applied through a mass mailing of your application. Given that you're only at a 25% scholarship, I'd transfer unless your current school is willing to increase that scholarship by a lot (after you get your t14 acceptance).


This is largely credited, IMO. I transferred from TT to T10 and was in a very close "transfer class" - i.e. I know what at least 80% of the ~30 did out of OCI and are doing now. They were largely successful at OCI - I'd say at least 70% went biglaw, if not more. I only had 3 CB's and 2 offers, though, and I know others had a small amount of callbacks, some not in there preferred markets. But looking back, having done OCI now, know that I was incredibly bland in my interviews. Those who did not did government for the most part and all of them went biglaw post-grad. I can think of one student who had a ton of trouble and went to a weird firm for summer and still ended up at a biglaw firm post-grad and lateralled to a v10. There's been a lot of clerkships and movement since but the majority remain at biglaw.

The debt sucks, but there's just no way I'd be where I am without transferring and I never regret it (even though I got offered a full ride to stay). I would almost certainly not have gotten the firm I did, and without a doubt not the district and circuit court clerkships I did, and would likely be out of the running for the AUSA positions I want.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:22 am

Just saw this after creating a thread. So would you say you're glad you took on the debt? I mean better job prospects would be worth it right? I'm kind of a screw it type of person so my gut feeling is telling me go. But still on the fence

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:05 am

Think of this as an economic transaction. You pay more tuition (and potentially COL) for more chance of a "good outcome"--in a game you can pay only once. (There are also more subtle benefits to a fancier degree.)

I transferred from a T20 to CCN, paying $160K more to (in my estimation) improve my chances of a good outcome from 60% to 95%. I'm, however, risk-averse, and it's a one-time transaction. Analyze and evaluate your own underlying situation similarly to decide whether it's worth it.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:26 am

n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t wrote:Think of this as an economic transaction. You pay more tuition (and potentially COL) for more chance of a "good outcome"--in a game you can pay only once. (There are also more subtle benefits to a fancier degree.)

I transferred from a T20 to CCN, paying $160K more to (in my estimation) improve my chances of a good outcome from 60% to 95%. I'm, however, risk-averse, and it's a one-time transaction. Analyze and evaluate your own underlying situation similarly to decide whether it's worth it.


Yup, it's definitely basically a gamble, just like going to law school in the first place. Your odds of success depend on your circumstances and the circumstances of the legal market. If you win the gamble, then you might be a lot better off in life (again, depends on your particular circumstances). If you lose the the gamble, you're going to be strapped with an insurmountable amount of debt that might substantially reduce the quality of your life (depending on your particular circumstances). Your odds of being successful at your t14 transfer school are considerably better if you had great grades at a decently ranked school than if you had great grades at a bad school (see my previous post re: how employers view you during OCI). But there's often the question of whether it even makes sense to transfer out and take the additional debt if you're at a decent school to begin with scholly $$ (i.e. losing law review, losing your first year grades, possibly losing letters of rec from your 1L profs for clerkship apps, etc.).

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:43 pm

Posted a few spots up about transferring from TT to T10. I meant to say, and don't think it was clear, that many of my classmates were successful at 3L OCI. Not sure if this because the firms wanted to see grades post-transfer, or what, but I know of at least 6/30 who got 3L OCI offers after either doing gov't or something else the previous summer, not hearing from their firm about offers in time for 3L OCI, or possibly being no offered.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Posted a few spots up about transferring from TT to T10. I meant to say, and don't think it was clear, that many of my classmates were successful at 3L OCI. Not sure if this because the firms wanted to see grades post-transfer, or what, but I know of at least 6/30 who got 3L OCI offers after either doing gov't or something else the previous summer, not hearing from their firm about offers in time for 3L OCI, or possibly being no offered.


Thanks for the clarity. To confirm you are saying roughly 70% of 30 people received offers in their initial OCI program at the T10, then the following year another 7ish people received offers at 3L OCI?

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Posted a few spots up about transferring from TT to T10. I meant to say, and don't think it was clear, that many of my classmates were successful at 3L OCI. Not sure if this because the firms wanted to see grades post-transfer, or what, but I know of at least 6/30 who got 3L OCI offers after either doing gov't or something else the previous summer, not hearing from their firm about offers in time for 3L OCI, or possibly being no offered.


Damn, that's crazy. During my 3L year (2010) I believe there were around six 3L openings for first-year associates nationwide. It's crazy how different things are between bad economy years and good economy years.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I transferred to UC Berkeley. OCI was brutal for me. 1 CB, no offer. Got my offer via mass mail.

Other transfers I know got offers, though.


The same exact thing happened to me at Michigan.

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Re: Transfer Success at Lower T14 OCI's

Postby eastcoast_iub » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:42 pm

Same thing happened to met at Michigan also. And several other classmates.

Know 1 person who got a V5 3L position after striking out 2L also.

Even people who got no-offered landed on their feet. The name of your school sticks with you forever and will benefit you at unexpected times. Transfer, not even a close call unless you had a full scholly.




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