Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

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KunAgnis

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby KunAgnis » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:31 pm

I personally am not sure if I had trouble with getting interviews because of my name. But quite a few people had to ask how to pronounce my name before the interview began and that to me seemed like they were doing their best to be respectful. I do think one potential way to remove some bias may be to have someone in HR remove the names from the application materials and identify them by internal numbering. Quite tedious, but it would go some distance in helping to remove the initial bias (if there is any, some people seem quite adverse to that notion).

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encore1101

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:34 pm

KunAgnis wrote:I personally am not sure if I had trouble with getting interviews because of my name. But quite a few people had to ask how to pronounce my name before the interview began and that to me seemed like they were doing their best to be respectful. I do think one potential way to remove some bias may be to have someone in HR remove the names from the application materials and identify them by internal numbering. Quite tedious, but it would go some distance in helping to remove the initial bias (if there is any, some people seem quite adverse to that notion).


They'd also have to redact any minority bar/club memberships. Can't let any of dem yeller folk in!

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby grixxlybear99 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:35 pm

What exactly are any of you advocating here? Just because Canadians are 28% less likely to hire an Asian for whatever job postings the resumes were submitted to literally proves nothing.

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encore1101

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:37 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:What exactly are any of you advocating here? Just because Canadians are 28% less likely to hire an Asian for whatever job postings the resumes were submitted to literally proves nothing.


Are you dense? At the very least, it proves Canadians are 28% less likely to even entertain the idea of hiring an Asian.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:37 pm

I've had someone ask me if I was authorized to work in the US before. To be fair, this followed a discussion of how I grew up abroad, and I was given an offer by this employer, but in later interviews I couldn't help wondering if the interviewer was wondering about that question when we discussed my background.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 pm

pml87 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Counterpoint: as an Asian American who was born overseas who is now a 1L at a T20 and ended up in the top 1/3 of the class, I ended up scooping up quite a few diversity screeners & callbacks as well as a fair number of normal spring OCI interviews (including a vault ranked offer that I've accepted).

But ymmv, I'm also pretty social and interview well (which also translated to hustling). I think it's important as an Asian American to be able to roll with the punches and etc. I don't think people are outright discriminative; a lot of the microaggresions/awkwardness/standoffishness that I've encountered in interviews seemed to stem more from ignorance which you can't freeze at or take as hostility. When I got comments on my first name, I used those comments to break the ice. Based off of talking with other Asian students, I feel like it's about half and half in terms of the reasons behind our performance in interviews. While there is a higher barrier created by employers with the (subconscious or conscious) stereotypes of meekness/lack of grasp on English and ignorance, I think that can be overcome. I also think there's also a subtle subconscious mentality that we have going into interviews that makes us more nervous/rigid and consequently less personable/conversational, which I also think can be overcome. It took me a while to overcome them myself but I think this can generally be done with enough interviews/practice.

I'm sure that there are more barriers in the workplace but just chiming in with my experiences thus far.


"Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like an armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." And screw the other passive-aggressive posts who offer anecdotes but do nothing to negate the research's findings.


Thanks! While I do agree that there is prejudice in legal hiring today, I also think that it makes little sense to resign ourselves to our fate without trying to do something about it. I think that people for the most part are good and will give you a chance if you put yourself out there. Though that might take a little more legwork as an Asian American for the time being (though it probably took even more for our predecessors).
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 pm

I went on an interview where the job application only required a resume, transcript, and a cover letter. During the interview my background came up; I'm foreign-born. I hadn't finished talking about it before the interviewer told me to submit a writing sample before I could be considered for the position.

I also have been asked if I'm authorized to work in the US in the past even though my resume shows an internship with the federal government (you know, where only citizens can work...).

Look, not everyone is a racist, but there are a lot of racist and sexist people in the legal profession (and others) whether you want to accept it or not.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby pml87 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
pml87 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Counterpoint: as an Asian American who was born overseas who is now a 1L at a T20 and ended up in the top 1/3 of the class, I ended up scooping up quite a few diversity screeners & callbacks as well as a fair number of normal spring OCI interviews (including a vault ranked offer that I've accepted).

But ymmv, I'm also pretty social and interview well (which also translated to hustling). I think it's important as an Asian American to be able to roll with the punches and etc. I don't think people are outright discriminative; a lot of the microaggresions/awkwardness/standoffishness that I've encountered in interviews seemed to stem more from ignorance which you can't freeze at or take as hostility. When I got comments on my first name, I used those comments to break the ice. Based off of talking with other Asian students, I feel like it's about half and half in terms of the reasons behind our performance in interviews. While there is a higher barrier created by employers with the (subconscious or conscious) stereotypes of meekness/lack of grasp on English and ignorance, I think that can be overcome. I also think there's also a subtle subconscious mentality that we have going into interviews that makes us more nervous/rigid and consequently less personable/conversational, which I also think can be overcome. It took me a while to overcome them myself but I think this can generally be done with enough interviews/practice.

I'm sure that there are more barriers in the workplace but just chiming in with my experiences thus far.


"Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like an armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." And screw the other passive-aggressive posts who offer anecdotes but do nothing to negate the research's findings.


Thanks! While I do agree that there is prejudice in legal hiring today, I also think that it makes little sense to resign ourselves to our fate without trying to do something about it. I think that people for the most part are good and will give you a chance if you put yourself out there. Though that might take a little more legwork as an Asian American for the time being (though it probably took even more for our predecessors).


Yeah. Reading the biases in past cases like Korematsu v. US definitely make our struggles look insignificant compared to theirs.

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LaLiLuLeLo

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:01 pm

It's always funny to see how up in arms people get when it comes to discussing racial bias/racism/what have you. Don't get why it's such a big deal to acknowledge there may be a problem.

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Pomeranian

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:10 pm

Curious whether you guys think whether this negative bias against Asian-Americans is worse in certain "combative" practice areas such as litigation, as opposed to an area like tax law or trusts/estates.
Last edited by Pomeranian on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Genius » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:10 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.


Totally ignorant and unnecessary.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Genius wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.


Totally ignorant and unnecessary.


Genius wrote:Would you ladies go out on a date with a guy you werent attracted to but thought was otherwise normal? If so, why? (Inb4 free meal)

If you ladies go out with a guy and you found him attractive, is the likelihood of him banging u that same evening pretty much guaranteed absent some weird shit?


Same.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Genius » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:15 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.

Pretty sure that is entirely not the point anyone here was making. When statistically Asian/other minority candidates are getting hired at lower rates than whites something is going on. That's why individual anecdotes prove nothing.


A Nony you are so nice and patient. How do you do this? I couldnt stop feeling contempt for this guy replying with stupid logic to an argument that wasnt made. This is why we love u.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Genius » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:20 pm

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:It's always funny to see how up in arms people get when it comes to discussing racial bias/racism/what have you. Don't get why it's such a big deal to acknowledge there may be a problem.


Because they think their perceived privilege/status is being taken away (it's not).
Last edited by Genius on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby elendinel » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:21 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist.


Cool. So then let's look at what the article and research on this topic actually says and go from there.

It is a fact that numerous studies have shown that two people with the exact same resume (literally carbon-copy) will get different interview offer rates depending on whether or not their ethnicity is evident from their name. Said another way, if I send two sets of my resume to 30 employers, one set with an Anglo name and one with a non-Anglo name, and if I get calls to interview with all 30 employers on my Anglo resume (I.e., I am objectively qualified for the positions from all 30 employers), I'm only statistically likely to hear back from 21 or 22 of those same employers with my minority name resumes. But again, I am objectively qualified for all 30. And again, this is before I interview and before I can be assessed on my personality, in either set. And these apps are being sent out at the same time, so there's no chance that the position got filled between the time I submitted my Anglo app and the time I submitted my minority app. That means many firms are giving both of us a chance, but many aren't, for some reason.

Most likely, this means close to a third of employers I applied to looked at minority-me and Anglo-me, thought we were duplicative, and chose the Anglo-me a chance but not minority me a chance; or, that they were more willing to review my Anglo resume to see if I was qualified, than they were for my minority resume. Both still have to involve a racial bias, because that is literally the only variable that changes between my resumes. The first is bad because it means people are more willing to interview Anglo me than minority me just purely because of whatever biases come to mind by me being a minority. The second is bad because it means minority me doesn't even get a chance to prove I have equal qualifications; my name is automatically tossing me out of the running before the employer can know that my app is insufficient.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:21 pm

Pomeranian wrote:Curious whether you guys think whether this negative bias against Asian-Americans is worse in certain "combative" practice areas such as litigation, as opposed to an area like tax law or trusts/estates.


Anecdotal... I'm not a litigator today. However, I was in Trial Advocacy in law school. I worked really hard in that class - went to every single one of my professor's office hours. However, he shat on me all the time and even told me to shut up once in an office hour. At the same time, he seemed to love my partner and would shower him with praise no matter how much he half-assed a cross-exam. My partner also routinely showed up late to class, and unprepared. Often when he was giving me critique, he would use stereotypical criticisms of Asians: "That was so quiet" (his fave) or "It was boring and you sounded like you were talking in a monotone." Perhaps these are real problems I have, but, perhaps it was something more than that... This was my very first major interaction with a litigator, and I couldn't help but suspect he treated me like crap because he just couldn't see an Asian doing a good job as a trial lawyer. It just didn't fit into the image he had in his mind of what a trial counsel should look like.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Genius » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:24 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.


Except nobody said this or argued this. And you obviously did not read the article even still. Because you are responding to an argument that isn't there, it just seems like you are not debating this in good faith. Unless of course, you were just trolling then good job.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Pomeranian wrote:Curious whether you guys think whether this negative bias against Asian-Americans is worse in certain "combative" practice areas such as litigation, as opposed to an area like tax law or trusts/estates.



Just a personal anecdote that I think explains the bias--

I work in a NYC prosecutor's office. Another Asian from a biglaw firm did a pro-bono motion to vacate judgment on behalf of an incarcerated defendant. Anyway, it was resolvable on papers (imo), but the judge wanted a hearing and arguments from both of us. It was painful watching the other guy go through his argument. His motion was fine, but you could tell English was not his first language. As a second language, his English was great, but you could tell it wasn't natural and he had to think and translate while speaking.

There is also the stereotype that Asian males are passive and emasculated. Unlike tax law and trusts/estates, where the work is cooperative on behalf of a client, employers may see that stereotype and think the Asian male does not have the temperament to excel in a conflict-oriented environment.
Last edited by encore1101 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:29 pm

elendinel wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist.


Cool. So then let's look at what the article and research on this topic actually says and go from there.

It is a fact that numerous studies have shown that two people with the exact same resume (literally carbon-copy) will get different interview offer rates depending on whether or not their ethnicity is evident from their name. Said another way, if I send two sets of my resume to 30 employers, one set with an Anglo name and one with a non-Anglo name, and if I get calls to interview with all 30 employers on my Anglo resume (I.e., I am objectively qualified for the positions from all 30 employers), I'm only statistically likely to hear back from 21 or 22 of those same employers with my minority name resumes. But again, I am objectively qualified for all 30. And again, this is before I interview and before I can be assessed on my personality, in either set. And these apps are being sent out at the same time, so there's no chance that the position got filled between the time I submitted my Anglo app and the time I submitted my minority app. That means many firms are giving both of us a chance, but many aren't, for some reason.

Most likely, this means close to a third of employers I applied to looked at minority-me and Anglo-me, thought we were duplicative, and chose the Anglo-me a chance but not minority me a chance; or, that they were more willing to review my Anglo resume to see if I was qualified, than they were for my minority resume. Both still have to involve a racial bias, because that is literally the only variable that changes between my resumes. The first is bad because it means people are more willing to interview Anglo me than minority me just purely because of whatever biases come to mind by me being a minority. The second is bad because it means minority me doesn't even get a chance to prove I have equal qualifications; my name is automatically tossing me out of the running before the employer can know that my app is insufficient.


moral of the story: Lee is the master last name. Is it anglo? is it asian? nobody knows until its too late!

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:33 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote: If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.


Do you really think one can address institutional racism / subconscious bias through a lawsuit?

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LaLiLuLeLo

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:37 pm

encore1101 wrote:
elendinel wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist.


Cool. So then let's look at what the article and research on this topic actually says and go from there.

It is a fact that numerous studies have shown that two people with the exact same resume (literally carbon-copy) will get different interview offer rates depending on whether or not their ethnicity is evident from their name. Said another way, if I send two sets of my resume to 30 employers, one set with an Anglo name and one with a non-Anglo name, and if I get calls to interview with all 30 employers on my Anglo resume (I.e., I am objectively qualified for the positions from all 30 employers), I'm only statistically likely to hear back from 21 or 22 of those same employers with my minority name resumes. But again, I am objectively qualified for all 30. And again, this is before I interview and before I can be assessed on my personality, in either set. And these apps are being sent out at the same time, so there's no chance that the position got filled between the time I submitted my Anglo app and the time I submitted my minority app. That means many firms are giving both of us a chance, but many aren't, for some reason.

Most likely, this means close to a third of employers I applied to looked at minority-me and Anglo-me, thought we were duplicative, and chose the Anglo-me a chance but not minority me a chance; or, that they were more willing to review my Anglo resume to see if I was qualified, than they were for my minority resume. Both still have to involve a racial bias, because that is literally the only variable that changes between my resumes. The first is bad because it means people are more willing to interview Anglo me than minority me just purely because of whatever biases come to mind by me being a minority. The second is bad because it means minority me doesn't even get a chance to prove I have equal qualifications; my name is automatically tossing me out of the running before the employer can know that my app is insufficient.


moral of the story: Lee is the master last name. Is it anglo? is it asian? nobody knows until its too late!


I'm adopted and have a VERY Anglo name. It's always fun walking in to an interview or something and seeing the processing of information in the eyes of others when they see my brown ass skin.

But hey, my foot was already in the door.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby elendinel » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:42 pm

encore1101 wrote:
moral of the story: Lee is the master last name. Is it anglo? is it asian? nobody knows until its too late!


Hah yeah. And legally change your first name to Robin/Jordan for added obfuscation.

I also apologize for the egregious typos above; on my phone right now.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:46 pm

As someone with an unpronounceable Asian name, this is v unfortunate.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Genius wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.


Totally ignorant and unnecessary.


Genius wrote:Would you ladies go out on a date with a guy you werent attracted to but thought was otherwise normal? If so, why? (Inb4 free meal)

If you ladies go out with a guy and you found him attractive, is the likelihood of him banging u that same evening pretty much guaranteed absent some weird shit?


Same.

Except the quote you pulled from elsewhere has nothing to do with this conversation.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Hikikomorist » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:50 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:What exactly are any of you advocating here? Just because Canadians are 28% less likely to hire an Asian for whatever job postings the resumes were submitted to literally proves nothing.

Out of curiosity, what is your interpretation of the results of the study/what do you believe explains the seeming gap?



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