Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

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encore1101

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:What exactly are any of you advocating here? Just because Canadians are 28% less likely to hire an Asian for whatever job postings the resumes were submitted to literally proves nothing.

Out of curiosity, what is your interpretation of the results of the study/what do you believe explains the seeming gap?


I think the study is meaningless. Others think the study proves all hiring is racist.


and some (most, hopefully) realize that all or nothing are not the only two choices

also, you didnt really answer the question why you think the gap exists. "it just is, and the other side has this straw man" is not an answer
Last edited by encore1101 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Npret » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:19 am

encore1101 wrote:
Npret wrote:
dabigchina wrote:I wouldn't characterize this as "micro aggressions." I don't give a fuck about "micro aggressions" or whatever. Old white babyboomers can offend me all day long if they don't fuck with my career.

The problem is of course they do fuck with my career. Just take a look at how many asian associates there are vs asian partners. It's like they are trying to build a railroad.

You realize almost no one makes partner? Where are your numbers of Asian associates passed over for partner compared to other groups? Making partner is unlikely for everyone.
I'm not disagreeing with the main point about names as discussed in the article but I don't think a random comment about the partner: associate ratio is strong evidence.


dont get me wrong, im not saying this is racism, just offering the evidence you sought

asians comprised 22% of associates but only 7% of partners: http://www.nalp.org/0214research#table1

Thanks.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Paul Campos » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:21 am

Lauren Rivera's excellent book Pedigree: How Elite Students Get Elite Jobs outlines in detail how upper class status gives applicants a big edge in elite professional service industry hiring, including big law hiring. She's also just co-authored a study finding that upper class status gives a huge boost to male applicants from non-elite law schools when applying for big law jobs, but doesn't seem to help female upper class applicants.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122416668154

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Hikikomorist » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:42 am

DCfilterDC wrote:https://hbr.org/2016/12/research-how-subtle-class-cues-can-backfire-on-your-resume

Really interesting study.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:05 am

I'm an Asian American male and this is what I've learnt during my 30 years of life.

Just like many client-facing service-oriented industries/businesses, biglaw partnership is an old boys club. And old boys club tend to be dominated by males (gender issues aside) with certain personality and traits to them. Being Asian doesn't mean you won't get there. it just means you have show those certain traits despite your herotage since media has painted the prototypical old boy club member as a six foot handsome white male. Having an Asian-sounding last name leaves some, but not all, people the impression that the candidate can't play that role. So really it does suck even if you're an Asian and have the traits to make it when you're not afforded even the opportunity to demonstrate those traits.

At the end of the day, however, I think the last name only plays role when all things are being equal. E.g., if we're picking between a person named Harvey Specter with inferior grades and no law review as compared to a person named Li Chen with summa honors and law review from the same school, the obvious pick would be the latter. It would truly be an issue if both candidates had identical profiles but Li had a 0.2 higher gpa but Harvey was selected. Fortunately, I have yet to see any anecdotal evidence to show.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Phil Brooks » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:37 am

Hikikomorist wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:https://hbr.org/2016/12/research-how-subtle-class-cues-can-backfire-on-your-resume

Really interesting study.


I have some problems with the study.

First, it would seem weird to me to even have the category "undergraduate extracurricular activities" on a resume. Are these common on legal resumes? My law school advised us not to include it on ours.

Second, who dreamed up "University award for outstanding athletes on financial aid"?? That seems beyond silly and inappropriate. I doubt any undergraduate schools would actually designate such an award. Do any?

Third, speaking of intersectionality, the study should have included signals about race (i.e. BLSA, LALSA, etc.) on some of the "lower class" resumes. Given the premium firms appropriately put on racial diversity, I'm sure such racial signals would have completely overpowered the "class disadvantage."

Fourth, the authors' selective description of the results suggest an agenda. The authors emphasize that the higher-class man had a callback rate of four times higher than the higher-class woman, and end their description there in order to suggest that a patriarchy exists. However, the lower-class woman had a callback rate of five times higher than the lower-class man. Why didn't the authors draw attention to this fact?

When I hire, when I see two people who have the same accomplishments, but one obviously had a head start (i.e. came from a privileged background), I choose the other candidate, because the other candidate accomplished more to overcome the initial disadvantage and end up with the same accomplishments, thus revealing him/herself to be more talented. Seems like the meritocratic thing to do.
Last edited by Phil Brooks on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby kingpin101 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:41 am

Phil Brooks wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:https://hbr.org/2016/12/research-how-subtle-class-cues-can-backfire-on-your-resume

Really interesting study.

However, the lower-class woman had a callback rate of five times higher than the higher-class man.


Makes sense. I'm guessing interviewers (at least male ones) prefer female candidates that are less threatening and powerful than they are.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Phil Brooks » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:43 am

kingpin101 wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
Hikikomorist wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:https://hbr.org/2016/12/research-how-subtle-class-cues-can-backfire-on-your-resume

Really interesting study.

However, the lower-class woman had a callback rate of five times higher than the higher-class man.


Makes sense. I'm guessing interviewers (at least male ones) prefer female candidates that are less threatening and powerful than they are.


Sorry, I mistyped. It was five times higher than the lower-class man.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:54 am

All the lower-class candidates had lower success rates than the upper class male, though, and I don't think it's surprising that lower-class women might be perceived as better able to "fit" than lower-class men, without the concerns about flight the employers applied to upper-class women. Just because the researchers are highlighting (in this brief piece) that the upper-class benefit doesn't apply to women doesn't mean they're ignoring the lower-class stuff, they're just making a different point in this article (and one I think is a little more nuanced than "patriarchy exists").

Also, whether or not the awards chosen were weird or not, they were a constant across all the fake resumes.

And adding the racial element would be an interesting future study but not doing so doesn't invalidate what they talk about here.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Counterpoint: as an Asian American who was born overseas who is now a 1L at a T20 and ended up in the top 1/3 of the class, I ended up scooping up quite a few diversity screeners & callbacks as well as a fair number of normal spring OCI interviews (including a vault ranked offer that I've accepted).

Take a look at how many Asian partners are at your firm. Compare with how many Asian associates there are at the firm. Get back to us with your thoughts.


What is wrong with you?

I provided an example to show the aspiring asian american attorneys that it's not all doom and gloom in terms of the hiring process. There are definitely things that we can do, just as there are things that still need to be done in the community, but that doesn't call for simple dismissal of the positive change that is going on. Yeah, leadership still needs to change. Yeah, a lot of the culture needs to change. But at least people nowadays do recognize that there is an issue and people are trying to make a difference so who the fuck are you to just shovel dirt on any form of positivity/efforts available? Rome wasn't built in a day.


Furthermore, the sense of entitlement echoed in some of these anon posters doesn't help the cause either.

Anonymous User wrote:Comforting thoughts:
A lot of these old white racist partners will be dead within 15 years.
China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity.


Are you kidding me? This kind of bitterness does nothing but fuel your own self righteousness. Holding the old boomers in contempt helps no one at all, except your own ego. Even if it might be difficult, responding with positivity and confidence/conviction does far more than any kind of whining does.


Sounds like you're saying minorities have a duty to coddle racism/microaggressions --- we don't.


No, I'm not. I'm saying that there are things we can do to make the situation better for ourselves and that whining without effort ultimately doesn't help us if the end goal is positive change.


JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm an Asian American male and this is what I've learnt during my 30 years of life.

Just like many client-facing service-oriented industries/businesses, biglaw partnership is an old boys club. And old boys club tend to be dominated by males (gender issues aside) with certain personality and traits to them. Being Asian doesn't mean you won't get there. it just means you have show those certain traits despite your herotage since media has painted the prototypical old boy club member as a six foot handsome white male. Having an Asian-sounding last name leaves some, but not all, people the impression that the candidate can't play that role. So really it does suck even if you're an Asian and have the traits to make it when you're not afforded even the opportunity to demonstrate those traits.

At the end of the day, however, I think the last name only plays role when all things are being equal. E.g., if we're picking between a person named Harvey Specter with inferior grades and no law review as compared to a person named Li Chen with summa honors and law review from the same school, the obvious pick would be the latter. It would truly be an issue if both candidates had identical profiles but Li had a 0.2 higher gpa but Harvey was selected. Fortunately, I have yet to see any anecdotal evidence to show.


I know an old white boomer partner who went to a Tier 4 law school but somehow become a partner years ago...he only works with white males from his Tier 4 alma mater. He refuses to work with women, minorities, people from T 14 law schools, etc. So yeah, stuff like this does happen.

Fortunately, like I said earlier, these guys are dying off in the next 15 years...woo hoo.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby elendinel » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:15 pm

You guys are in for a rude awakening if you think this kind of racism is just going to die off with the boomers...

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:18 pm

elendinel wrote:You guys are in for a rude awakening if you think this kind of racism is just going to die off with the boomers...


Some of it will.

I also think the decline of the US and western world into a festering shithole with no jobs, high unemployment, no capital, etc. and rise of China will play a role as well. My uncle in China is a legit billionaire and my Taiwanese uncles are all worth over $100 million. The first does VC work. You're going to bet that lawyers will start kissing more rich Asian ass in the future.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
elendinel wrote:You guys are in for a rude awakening if you think this kind of racism is just going to die off with the boomers...


Some of it will.

I also think the decline of the US and western world into a festering shithole and rise of China will play a role as well. My uncle in China is a legit billionaire and my Taiwanese uncles are all worth over $100 million. The first does VC work. You're going to bet that lawyers will start kissing more rich Asian ass in the future.


It's more likely that will breed resentment.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:25 pm

lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
elendinel wrote:You guys are in for a rude awakening if you think this kind of racism is just going to die off with the boomers...


Some of it will.

I also think the decline of the US and western world into a festering shithole and rise of China will play a role as well. My uncle in China is a legit billionaire and my Taiwanese uncles are all worth over $100 million. The first does VC work. You're going to bet that lawyers will start kissing more rich Asian ass in the future.


It's more likely that will breed resentment.


Along with superficial ass kissing and hiring of more Asian attorneys who can interface with Asian clients, etc. More Asian partners with a book of business based in Asia. That sounds fine to me.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
elendinel wrote:You guys are in for a rude awakening if you think this kind of racism is just going to die off with the boomers...


Some of it will.

I also think the decline of the US and western world into a festering shithole and rise of China will play a role as well. My uncle in China is a legit billionaire and my Taiwanese uncles are all worth over $100 million. The first does VC work. You're going to bet that lawyers will start kissing more rich Asian ass in the future.


It's more likely that will breed resentment.


Along with superficial ass kissing and hiring of more Asian attorneys who can interface with Asian clients, etc. More Asian partners with a book of business based in Asia. That sounds fine to me.


Probably more in the opposite direction...

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.


Look, I'm sorry if you had a different experience because I know it must have been a lot more difficult in the past but things are getting better now. Minority associate rates are rising and so are minority partnership rates, even if the latter might be rising at a slower pace than the first.

Positivity and confidence have had an impact on my experiences thus far in terms of recruitment. I don't know how jaded you are but I don't think there's ever been a case where attitude & adapting to the situation/taking advantage of the resources available hasn't helped an individual. You might say that I'm still due to be crushed in actual biglaw but at the very least, this mindset has helped me and has gotten me into the door, which was the topic of the original poster's link.

This entire thread's been circlejerk over how shitty the situation is and it strikes me as awfully bitter & pointless to rally against any form of positivity, especially when framed like, "yeah, things might suck right now but things are slowly getting better and there are things that we can do to give us more opportunities and overcome some of these boundaries." Otherwise, what's the point of this thread, to just host a pityparty? Shouldn't we be talking about ways to succeed in spite of these obstacles? At the very least, I've suggested things that I've been able to use to perform better that could help other aspiring asian american attorneys.

Lastly, I wasn't targeting your distaste for boomers particularly, but rather the inane statement that followed: "China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity." Putting aside the fact that the income inequality is also remarkably shitty in China and that Chinese folks have also done a remarkable amount of damage to the environment/economy, the whole sentiment of "f you, just wait until our positions are reversed so you can see how it feels" seems incredibly childish/vengeful and more apt to cause future damage than good.

Anyways, this thread is a cesspit now and I clearly do not fit the narrative here; goodbye.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect interview?

Postby Genius » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:06 pm

MrT wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/23/516823230/asian-last-names-lead-to-fewer-job-interviews-still

Basically, if you have an Asian last name, you better apply to more places than your anglo peers because you will come up 28% short. This is not a knock on someone for just being white/having anglo last name. But this study seems to dispell the notion that Asians do well in the workforce. If you have an ethnic minority sounding name, have you had difficulties getting interviews compared to your anglo peers? Chances are you wont know it.

Why is this anon?


Accidental. But who cares you petty little immature name calling boy!

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Genius » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:07 pm

lawman84 wrote:
Probably more in the opposite direction...


I knew you were a member of the oppressed conservative white men's club but dayum you're cold.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.


Look, I'm sorry if you had a different experience because I know it must have been a lot more difficult in the past but things are getting better now. Minority associate rates are rising and so are minority partnership rates, even if the latter might be rising at a slower pace than the first.

Positivity and confidence have had an impact on my experiences thus far in terms of recruitment. I don't know how jaded you are but I don't think there's ever been a case where attitude & adapting to the situation/taking advantage of the resources available hasn't helped an individual. You might say that I'm still due to be crushed in actual biglaw but at the very least, this mindset has helped me and has gotten me into the door, which was the topic of the original poster's link.

This entire thread's been circlejerk over how shitty the situation is and it strikes me as awfully bitter & pointless to rally against any form of positivity, especially when framed like, "yeah, things might suck right now but things are slowly getting better and there are things that we can do to give us more opportunities and overcome some of these boundaries." Otherwise, what's the point of this thread, to just host a pityparty? Shouldn't we be talking about ways to succeed in spite of these obstacles? At the very least, I've suggested things that I've been able to use to perform better that could help other aspiring asian american attorneys.

Lastly, I wasn't targeting your distaste for boomers particularly, but rather the inane statement that followed: "China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity." Putting aside the fact that the income inequality is also remarkably shitty in China and that Chinese folks have also done a remarkable amount of damage to the environment/economy, the whole sentiment of "f you, just wait until our positions are reversed so you can see how it feels" seems incredibly childish/vengeful and more apt to cause future damage than good.

Anyways, this thread is a cesspit now and I clearly do not fit the narrative here; goodbye.


Anon, it's great you have such a positive attitude and good work ethic. However, I'd like to point out there is a bit of a generational issue here as well. By generation I mean, generation of law school cohorts. It seems you are currently in law school now and have had many successes. That's great, you should keep doing whatever you're doing. I graduated closer to the recession, when people - especially the Asians around me - were not getting jobs, even with decent grades at T14 schools. Heck, I know an Asian who was laid off as a junior associate (come to think of it I know two), had to do contract work, and only ended up pulling herself out of that shithole when she landed a consulting job. She went to Harvard law school btw. I also know a Latino attorney (T14, ok grades, on a competitive journal) who has been doing contract work for over a year now.

For you to just smile and tell us about your successes and basically say you think hard work is the way to overcome racism can come off as self-righteous and full of it. I personally am not offended - I'm doing just fine, too - but I know many hard working, smart Asians who graduated during the recession and their careers suffered a lot. I think they would feel really insulted if the I heard your spiel about hard work and having a good attitude. Sometimes, it's the circumstances period.

That being said I completely agree with your message, I'm just telling you why it might come off the wrong way.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Hikikomorist » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:13 pm

elendinel wrote:You guys are in for a rude awakening if you think this kind of racism is just going to die off with the boomers...

Yep.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.


Look, I'm sorry if you had a different experience because I know it must have been a lot more difficult in the past but things are getting better now. Minority associate rates are rising and so are minority partnership rates, even if the latter might be rising at a slower pace than the first.

Positivity and confidence have had an impact on my experiences thus far in terms of recruitment. I don't know how jaded you are but I don't think there's ever been a case where attitude & adapting to the situation/taking advantage of the resources available hasn't helped an individual. You might say that I'm still due to be crushed in actual biglaw but at the very least, this mindset has helped me and has gotten me into the door, which was the topic of the original poster's link.

This entire thread's been circlejerk over how shitty the situation is and it strikes me as awfully bitter & pointless to rally against any form of positivity, especially when framed like, "yeah, things might suck right now but things are slowly getting better and there are things that we can do to give us more opportunities and overcome some of these boundaries." Otherwise, what's the point of this thread, to just host a pityparty? Shouldn't we be talking about ways to succeed in spite of these obstacles? At the very least, I've suggested things that I've been able to use to perform better that could help other aspiring asian american attorneys.

Lastly, I wasn't targeting your distaste for boomers particularly, but rather the inane statement that followed: "China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity." Putting aside the fact that the income inequality is also remarkably shitty in China and that Chinese folks have also done a remarkable amount of damage to the environment/economy, the whole sentiment of "f you, just wait until our positions are reversed so you can see how it feels" seems incredibly childish/vengeful and more apt to cause future damage than good.

Anyways, this thread is a cesspit now and I clearly do not fit the narrative here; goodbye.


Wait...you're still in law school?

LOL. I graduated from a T-14 in like 2010/2011 and GOT BIGLAW while most of my class struck out and have done biglaw for years...Just lol @ a 3L talking to people who are practicing attorneys about how to respond to racism in the workplace. I'm not even talking about just landing biglaw. I'm talking about how to deal with racism during practice.

Since you have never worked in biglaw, I don't even know what you're contributing to this topic. What "experiences" could you possibly have that would be relevant?

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.


Look, I'm sorry if you had a different experience because I know it must have been a lot more difficult in the past but things are getting better now. Minority associate rates are rising and so are minority partnership rates, even if the latter might be rising at a slower pace than the first.

Positivity and confidence have had an impact on my experiences thus far in terms of recruitment. I don't know how jaded you are but I don't think there's ever been a case where attitude & adapting to the situation/taking advantage of the resources available hasn't helped an individual. You might say that I'm still due to be crushed in actual biglaw but at the very least, this mindset has helped me and has gotten me into the door, which was the topic of the original poster's link.

This entire thread's been circlejerk over how shitty the situation is and it strikes me as awfully bitter & pointless to rally against any form of positivity, especially when framed like, "yeah, things might suck right now but things are slowly getting better and there are things that we can do to give us more opportunities and overcome some of these boundaries." Otherwise, what's the point of this thread, to just host a pityparty? Shouldn't we be talking about ways to succeed in spite of these obstacles? At the very least, I've suggested things that I've been able to use to perform better that could help other aspiring asian american attorneys.

Lastly, I wasn't targeting your distaste for boomers particularly, but rather the inane statement that followed: "China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity." Putting aside the fact that the income inequality is also remarkably shitty in China and that Chinese folks have also done a remarkable amount of damage to the environment/economy, the whole sentiment of "f you, just wait until our positions are reversed so you can see how it feels" seems incredibly childish/vengeful and more apt to cause future damage than good.

Anyways, this thread is a cesspit now and I clearly do not fit the narrative here; goodbye.


Anon, it's great you have such a positive attitude and good work ethic. However, I'd like to point out there is a bit of a generational issue here as well. By generation I mean, generation of law school cohorts. It seems you are currently in law school now and have had many successes. That's great, you should keep doing whatever you're doing. I graduated closer to the recession, when people - especially the Asians around me - were not getting jobs, even with decent grades at T14 schools. Heck, I know an Asian who was laid off as a junior associate (come to think of it I know two), had to do contract work, and only ended up pulling herself out of that shithole when she landed a consulting job. She went to Harvard law school btw. I also know a Latino attorney (T14, ok grades, on a competitive journal) who has been doing contract work for over a year now.

For you to just smile and tell us about your successes and basically say you think hard work is the way to overcome racism can come off as self-righteous and full of it. I personally am not offended - I'm doing just fine, too - but I know many hard working, smart Asians who graduated during the recession and their careers suffered a lot. I think they would feel really insulted if the I heard your spiel about hard work and having a good attitude. Sometimes, it's the circumstances period.

That being said I completely agree with your message, I'm just telling you why it might come off the wrong way.


He's still in law school...why is he talking to me about dealing with racism in biglaw? This kid has no idea what's coming to him, not just in terms of racism, but in terms of handling biglaw workload/pressures generally.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're in a top law school now and DON'T land biglaw if you want it, it's probably more of an issue with your grades than anything. Isn't it a joke to get biglaw these days?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
Posts: 327312
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.


Look, I'm sorry if you had a different experience because I know it must have been a lot more difficult in the past but things are getting better now. Minority associate rates are rising and so are minority partnership rates, even if the latter might be rising at a slower pace than the first.

Positivity and confidence have had an impact on my experiences thus far in terms of recruitment. I don't know how jaded you are but I don't think there's ever been a case where attitude & adapting to the situation/taking advantage of the resources available hasn't helped an individual. You might say that I'm still due to be crushed in actual biglaw but at the very least, this mindset has helped me and has gotten me into the door, which was the topic of the original poster's link.

This entire thread's been circlejerk over how shitty the situation is and it strikes me as awfully bitter & pointless to rally against any form of positivity, especially when framed like, "yeah, things might suck right now but things are slowly getting better and there are things that we can do to give us more opportunities and overcome some of these boundaries." Otherwise, what's the point of this thread, to just host a pityparty? Shouldn't we be talking about ways to succeed in spite of these obstacles? At the very least, I've suggested things that I've been able to use to perform better that could help other aspiring asian american attorneys.

Lastly, I wasn't targeting your distaste for boomers particularly, but rather the inane statement that followed: "China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity." Putting aside the fact that the income inequality is also remarkably shitty in China and that Chinese folks have also done a remarkable amount of damage to the environment/economy, the whole sentiment of "f you, just wait until our positions are reversed so you can see how it feels" seems incredibly childish/vengeful and more apt to cause future damage than good.

Anyways, this thread is a cesspit now and I clearly do not fit the narrative here; goodbye.


Anon, it's great you have such a positive attitude and good work ethic. However, I'd like to point out there is a bit of a generational issue here as well. By generation I mean, generation of law school cohorts. It seems you are currently in law school now and have had many successes. That's great, you should keep doing whatever you're doing. I graduated closer to the recession, when people - especially the Asians around me - were not getting jobs, even with decent grades at T14 schools. Heck, I know an Asian who was laid off as a junior associate (come to think of it I know two), had to do contract work, and only ended up pulling herself out of that shithole when she landed a consulting job. She went to Harvard law school btw. I also know a Latino attorney (T14, ok grades, on a competitive journal) who has been doing contract work for over a year now.

For you to just smile and tell us about your successes and basically say you think hard work is the way to overcome racism can come off as self-righteous and full of it. I personally am not offended - I'm doing just fine, too - but I know many hard working, smart Asians who graduated during the recession and their careers suffered a lot. I think they would feel really insulted if the I heard your spiel about hard work and having a good attitude. Sometimes, it's the circumstances period.

That being said I completely agree with your message, I'm just telling you why it might come off the wrong way.


He's still in law school...why is he talking to me about dealing with racism in biglaw? This kid has no idea what's coming to him, not just in terms of racism, but in terms of handling biglaw workload/pressures generally.


Not just that but, can we all agree it's a lot easier to get into law school these days with the declining rates of law school applicants? For those of us who graduated around the recession, there was a lot more competition with a lot fewer jobs. No amount of hard work or good attitude could overcome those circumstances.

Anonymous User
Posts: 327312
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
JFC, stfu with your self righteousness. I don't whine IRL about this because it doesn't do anything. Neither does '"responding with positivity and confidence" because frankly that doesn't do anything in a white, old boys club either. Good luck painting your face white, changing genders, or looking the part when you're clearly not a white man. I ended up marrying into a white family where my FIL is akin to a biglaw partner, but it doesn't make my POV about old, white racist boomer partners any different.

I can't wait for boomers to die for many reasons, this is just one of them. It's not bitterness either - fact of the matter is they have destroyed this planet (environmentally, culturally, the US financially, etc.) and ruined the work culture of America. I'm looking forward to the young people perhaps making this planet a better place to live for most, rather than just having the top 0.1% getting richer at the expense of every other poor human/animal out there.


Look, I'm sorry if you had a different experience because I know it must have been a lot more difficult in the past but things are getting better now. Minority associate rates are rising and so are minority partnership rates, even if the latter might be rising at a slower pace than the first.

Positivity and confidence have had an impact on my experiences thus far in terms of recruitment. I don't know how jaded you are but I don't think there's ever been a case where attitude & adapting to the situation/taking advantage of the resources available hasn't helped an individual. You might say that I'm still due to be crushed in actual biglaw but at the very least, this mindset has helped me and has gotten me into the door, which was the topic of the original poster's link.

This entire thread's been circlejerk over how shitty the situation is and it strikes me as awfully bitter & pointless to rally against any form of positivity, especially when framed like, "yeah, things might suck right now but things are slowly getting better and there are things that we can do to give us more opportunities and overcome some of these boundaries." Otherwise, what's the point of this thread, to just host a pityparty? Shouldn't we be talking about ways to succeed in spite of these obstacles? At the very least, I've suggested things that I've been able to use to perform better that could help other aspiring asian american attorneys.

Lastly, I wasn't targeting your distaste for boomers particularly, but rather the inane statement that followed: "China has all the power and money now, so these old boomers will have to start kissing some Asian ass in some capacity." Putting aside the fact that the income inequality is also remarkably shitty in China and that Chinese folks have also done a remarkable amount of damage to the environment/economy, the whole sentiment of "f you, just wait until our positions are reversed so you can see how it feels" seems incredibly childish/vengeful and more apt to cause future damage than good.

Anyways, this thread is a cesspit now and I clearly do not fit the narrative here; goodbye.


Anon, it's great you have such a positive attitude and good work ethic. However, I'd like to point out there is a bit of a generational issue here as well. By generation I mean, generation of law school cohorts. It seems you are currently in law school now and have had many successes. That's great, you should keep doing whatever you're doing. I graduated closer to the recession, when people - especially the Asians around me - were not getting jobs, even with decent grades at T14 schools. Heck, I know an Asian who was laid off as a junior associate (come to think of it I know two), had to do contract work, and only ended up pulling herself out of that shithole when she landed a consulting job. She went to Harvard law school btw. I also know a Latino attorney (T14, ok grades, on a competitive journal) who has been doing contract work for over a year now.

For you to just smile and tell us about your successes and basically say you think hard work is the way to overcome racism can come off as self-righteous and full of it. I personally am not offended - I'm doing just fine, too - but I know many hard working, smart Asians who graduated during the recession and their careers suffered a lot. I think they would feel really insulted if the I heard your spiel about hard work and having a good attitude. Sometimes, it's the circumstances period.

That being said I completely agree with your message, I'm just telling you why it might come off the wrong way.


Thank you for politeness. But that's the thing though, I was never addressing the older generation because I recognize that things were worse back then and that the current situation is different. I repeatedly referred to that in my posts. I am just trying to offer my perspective to the 0Ls and 1Ls who are in this thread, as I was once a 0L who was curious about this kind of stuff too. I never proffered to tell people how to solve the problem of racism in practice; the initial post addressed the issue of biases in hiring, which was the sole topic of what I've been discussing in terms of ways to get ahead/what's worked for me, which I feel should be relevant given that I am neither in a T14 nor was I in the top 10 or even 25% and still landed multiple screeners, multiple callbacks, and ultimately 2 offers for vault ranked firms as a 1L.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.



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