Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

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Genius

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Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Genius » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:03 pm

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/ ... iews-still

Basically, if you have an Asian last name, you better apply to more places than your anglo peers because you will come up 28% short. This is not a knock on someone for just being white/having anglo last name. But this study seems to dispell the notion that Asians do well in the workforce. If you have an ethnic minority sounding name, have you had difficulties getting interviews compared to your anglo peers? Chances are you wont know it.

Edit: accidental anon
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MrT

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect interview?

Postby MrT » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/23/516823230/asian-last-names-lead-to-fewer-job-interviews-still

Basically, if you have an Asian last name, you better apply to more places than your anglo peers because you will come up 28% short. This is not a knock on someone for just being white/having anglo last name. But this study seems to dispell the notion that Asians do well in the workforce. If you have an ethnic minority sounding name, have you had difficulties getting interviews compared to your anglo peers? Chances are you wont know it.

Why is this anon?

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect interview?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:20 pm

As an Asian I can definitely say that for all my life, being a minority had very little impact on my life... until I attended law school.

During law school (and after), being Asian has hurt me far more than it has helped (if it has helped at all).
Whether I've gotten less interviews because of my last name, I'm not sure. But I strongly suspect that my ethnicity has hurt me in my interviews multiple times.

I write this because I suspect being Asian is much more of a disadvantage in the legal field than in other industries.
Can elaborate later after work

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect interview?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:28 pm

As an ethnic minority with an ethnic name, I can tell you that my name was made fun of or commented upon multiple times during OCI interviews. So yeah, it probably hurt me.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect interview?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:26 pm

I think a lot of old timer corporate execs and big law partners want associates who look like them to handle their cases and talk to clients. That is not to say it's okay they do that (it's actually pretty demonic/fked up) but that is the reality for now. Asians will probably have a harder time losing the perpetual foreigner stereotype simply because their skin color contrasts too much compared ro Jews, Italians, Irish etc.

In a twisted way, at least the firms who call you are okay with potentially having you.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:08 pm

It totally does hurt you.

One thing that bothered me the most about my job search was the degree to which I was encouraged to search for firms with an Asia practice. When I started working, I was also put on projects that tended to involve Greater China clients/issues. At the time I didn't mind it, I was just glad to get work, but in retrospect I'm a bit horrified at how subtly racist this was. I'm Asian American and I speak perfectly fluent English. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my English and in fact it's pretty damn good... by all indications (high school, SAT, LSAT, college and law school writing seminar performances). But I kept getting put on these niche projects. Maybe I seemed like the natural fit for this valuable part of the business but it didn't stop me from feeling sidelined while my coworkers worked on the bigger, non-Asian clients.

At the end of the day, there's something very crude about the business aspects of law practice.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:14 pm

Counterpoint: as an Asian American who was born overseas who is now a 1L at a T20 and ended up in the top 1/3 of the class, I ended up scooping up quite a few diversity screeners & callbacks as well as a fair number of normal spring OCI interviews (including a vault ranked offer that I've accepted).

But ymmv, I'm also pretty social and interview well (which also translated to hustling). I think it's important as an Asian American to be able to roll with the punches and etc. I don't think people are outright discriminative; a lot of the microaggresions/awkwardness/standoffishness that I've encountered in interviews seemed to stem more from ignorance which you can't freeze at or take as hostility. When I got comments on my first name, I used those comments to break the ice. Based off of talking with other Asian students, I feel like it's about half and half in terms of the reasons behind our performance in interviews. While there is a higher barrier created by employers with the (subconscious or conscious) stereotypes of meekness/lack of grasp on English and ignorance, I think that can be overcome. I also think there's also a subtle subconscious mentality that we have going into interviews that makes us more nervous/rigid and consequently less personable/conversational, which I also think can be overcome. It took me a while to overcome them myself but I think this can generally be done with enough interviews/practice.

I'm sure that there are more barriers in the workplace but just chiming in with my experiences thus far.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby grixxlybear99 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:22 pm

I interviewed a hand full of people this week and, after looking at this thread, I double checked the offers I gave out and saw that one had an Indian name and the other an Asian

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Yukos » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:26 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I interviewed a hand full of people this week and, after looking at this thread, I double checked the offers I gave out and saw that one had an Indian name and the other an Asian


Congratulations you are officially Not Racist.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:30 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I interviewed a hand full of people this week and, after looking at this thread, I double checked the offers I gave out and saw that one had an Indian name and the other an Asian

I double checked my FB friends list and noticed some non-Anglo-Saxon names. High five!

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby grixxlybear99 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:43 pm

I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:51 pm

Having one Asian and one Indian amongst the hires isn't very strong proof there's no racism involved. That's 2 out of how many hires? Also, like me, they could have been hired to help out with the Asian practice groups. I don't think it's strong evidence either way.

Your accusation that people can "jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time" is very dismissive of the microaggressions we face as minorities. No, I do not think "everyone is always racist all the time," but I do think some people in the legal profession are subconsciously prejudiced and that this has harmed my career a couple of times.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Having one Asian and one Indian amongst the hires isn't very strong proof there's no racism involved. That's 2 out of how many hires? Also, like me, they could have been hired to help out with the Asian practice groups. I don't think it's strong evidence either way.

Your accusation that people can "jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time" is very dismissive of the microaggressions we face as minorities. No, I do not think "everyone is always racist all the time," but I do think some people in the legal profession are subconsciously prejudiced and that this has harmed my career a couple of times.


2 out of 2 offers went to persons with Indian and Asian ethnicities. It's not a micro aggression that your reading comp sucks.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:54 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.

So what really is the point of this anecdote, then? We have no idea how many candidates with Asian/Indian names applied, or how their qualifications compared to everyone else.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:57 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.

So what really is the point of this anecdote, then? We have no idea how many candidates with Asian/Indian names applied, or how their qualifications compared to everyone else.


The anecdote exists to indicate that if there is a presumption of racism in all aspects of hiring until proven otherwise, you'll likely see what you're looking for. What is your point of questioning my anecdote?

And if it matters, they were the only candidates with non-white sounding names. One went to a t14, the other an unranked school that killed the interview.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.

So what really is the point of this anecdote, then? We have no idea how many candidates with Asian/Indian names applied, or how their qualifications compared to everyone else.


The anecdote exists to indicate that if there is a presumption of racism in all aspects of hiring until proven otherwise, you'll likely see what you're looking for. What is your point of questioning my anecdote?

And if it matters, they were the only candidates with non-white sounding names. One went to a t14, the other an unranked school that killed the interview.

My point is that your anecdote doesn't tell us anything about structural problems in firm hiring. It doesn't prove what you seem to think it does?

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:13 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I meant to say that of the two offers, one had an Indian name and the other an Asian name. But feel free to jump on the bandwagon that everyone is always racist all the time.

So what really is the point of this anecdote, then? We have no idea how many candidates with Asian/Indian names applied, or how their qualifications compared to everyone else.


The anecdote exists to indicate that if there is a presumption of racism in all aspects of hiring until proven otherwise, you'll likely see what you're looking for. What is your point of questioning my anecdote?

And if it matters, they were the only candidates with non-white sounding names. One went to a t14, the other an unranked school that killed the interview.

My point is that your anecdote doesn't tell us anything about structural problems in firm hiring. It doesn't prove what you seem to think it does?


Ok

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby TLSModBot » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:13 pm

Guys guys guys

He's seen an Indian AND an Asian get considered for hiring

We are doing all right

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encore1101

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:14 pm

I don't think Anonymous HR poster meant anything more than what his post conveyed. If minorities (me, included) can provide anecdotes to confirm/refute some implicit racism in hiring, it's fair to hear it from the other side of the table.

Stop ganging up on him/her before he/she rescinds the offers. Just kidding.

That being said, this is not a problem unique to Asians: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... get-respo/

While Asians may do well in other fields, we're still underrepresented in law. Similar to other posters, my guess as to is that the nature of the law necessarily demands a mastery of English that employers may feel someone with an Asian name doesn't have, the perception that Asians lack the "alpha" personality type, or some other bias.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby grixxlybear99 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:20 pm

I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby pml87 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Counterpoint: as an Asian American who was born overseas who is now a 1L at a T20 and ended up in the top 1/3 of the class, I ended up scooping up quite a few diversity screeners & callbacks as well as a fair number of normal spring OCI interviews (including a vault ranked offer that I've accepted).

But ymmv, I'm also pretty social and interview well (which also translated to hustling). I think it's important as an Asian American to be able to roll with the punches and etc. I don't think people are outright discriminative; a lot of the microaggresions/awkwardness/standoffishness that I've encountered in interviews seemed to stem more from ignorance which you can't freeze at or take as hostility. When I got comments on my first name, I used those comments to break the ice. Based off of talking with other Asian students, I feel like it's about half and half in terms of the reasons behind our performance in interviews. While there is a higher barrier created by employers with the (subconscious or conscious) stereotypes of meekness/lack of grasp on English and ignorance, I think that can be overcome. I also think there's also a subtle subconscious mentality that we have going into interviews that makes us more nervous/rigid and consequently less personable/conversational, which I also think can be overcome. It took me a while to overcome them myself but I think this can generally be done with enough interviews/practice.

I'm sure that there are more barriers in the workplace but just chiming in with my experiences thus far.


"Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like an armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." And screw the other passive-aggressive posts who offer anecdotes but do nothing to negate the research's findings.

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encore1101

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby encore1101 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:22 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.


The problem isn't that a person wasn't hired. The problem is that identical resumes were sent out, except one had an ethnic-sounding name, but the other had an anglo-saxon sounding name. Theoretically, they should have both received callbacks, but that's not what happened.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:23 pm

encore1101 wrote:
grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.


The problem isn't that a person wasn't hired. The problem is that identical resumes were sent out, except one had an ethnic-sounding name, but the other had an anglo-saxon sounding name. Theoretically, they should have both received callbacks, but that's not what happened.


sounds like grixbxlybear is the one with the RC issues

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:25 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.

Pretty sure that is entirely not the point anyone here was making. When statistically Asian/other minority candidates are getting hired at lower rates than whites something is going on. That's why individual anecdotes prove nothing.

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Re: Ethnic minority last names affect your application and interview

Postby pml87 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:25 pm

grixxlybear99 wrote:I just fail to see the connection that just because a minority is not hired, for honestly who knows what reason, it necessarily means that hiring is racist. Maybe the particular candidate was not qualified. Maybe others were more qualified. I find it troubling that so many people assume that a person is racist if they don't hire a minority. If you're so perturbed, file suit and demand some type of affirmative action in employment practices then.


May be read the article first.

"The study found that job applicants in Canada with Asian names — names of Indian, Pakistani or Chinese origin — were 28 percent less likely to get called for an interview compared to applicants with Anglo names, even when all the qualifications were the same."

I can attest that this has been a well-known phenomenon among Asian Americans at my law school who underperformed even compared to their peers with similar credentials. And this doesn't stop there, as AA judges and AA attorneys face the same issues.



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