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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:32 pm**

Looking for a sense of what my rights and obligations are:

Company 1 mass-mailed my resume to a bunch of firms - they made a big list of places with jobs available. After that mailing, there were almost no other submissions or out of market, kind of a passive aggressive bye. Got 1 skype interview out of my market in 3 months. They said there just weren't many jobs. I signed no contract, and was led to believe they'd really work hard to work with me.

Company 2 got me a job in a different practice area (my first choice that company 1 said was non-existent) - searching my name brought me up - I think Company 1's might have been put in the spam folder. Company 1 was first, which makes the contracts to confusing.

I offered to call Company 1, and explain it was through Company 2 and that I feel like Company 1 basically mass mailed me but had no follow up and Company 2 found a job told me would 99.99999% not be there. I thought they'd rescind the apps (I'm young).

They told me if I don't tell them the name of the firm, they'll call the whole mass mail list and it will harm my reputation.

I'm not scared about the threat - I don't want them to know, because they'll flood them with apps. My questions are:

1.) Am I obligated to tell Company 1 the firm's name? They implied I am, and that it's sanctionable not to. I think they're lying, but don't know.

2.) Am I allowed to fire them to get the apps rescinded from other places? They made it seem like because they mass mailed a few months ago, I can only accept jobs through them.

3.) They made it seem they'd work hard until I found something. It seems all they did is a bait and switch - they mass mailed to a 100 firms not to place me, but to get a half commission later on. It's suggested that I can only work at any of those places if they get a commission - is this true?

Essentially, I was finding jobs on my own when they said none were available. This recruiter found me a job in my market, and in my ideal practice group. They said they'd work until I found the perfect fit, and this is one of the big recruiting companies.

When you work with a real estate broker, you know they have their best interests also, but this situation feels like a bait and switch - that they just wanted to mass mail my resume in a half hour so they could get a cut of any career move I make without doing recruiting work without presenting a contract without telling me terms and conditions while lying about the expected conduct, threatening to hurt my career if I don't tell them about available jobs and backing it up by having an esquire.

I was told no jobs were available when I was finding them on my own but these apps won't get rescinded. This is a national recruiting company - when I was in law school I'd use their blog for law school advice. Granted, I'm young and naive but I never thought a business this big made their money by manipulating first year attorneys.
When you go to a used car lot, you go there knowing to be on your feet. These people use the fact they're lawyers to build trust, and the interests aren't aligned - i

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:53 pm**

I stopped reading at "I'm not naive, but I figured recruiters were professionals and these people seemed so nice."

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:06 pm**

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I stopped reading at "I'm not naive, but I figured recruiters were professionals and these people seemed so nice."

To be fair, thats pretty far in the post.

Regardless, I'm sorta confused about what happened/is happening. But I sincerely doubt any legal recruiter is going to call every law firm and tell HR or whoever they get ahold of that Johnny from Corporate was a bad, bad boy.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:33 am**

RaceJudicata wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I stopped reading at "I'm not naive, but I figured recruiters were professionals and these people seemed so nice."
To be fair, thats pretty far in the post.

Regardless, I'm sorta confused about what happened/is happening. But I sincerely doubt any legal recruiter is going to call every law firm and tell HR or whoever they get ahold of that Johnny from Corporate was a bad, bad boy.

OP : I doubt firms would care. If anything it gets them to think "who is this person?", and gets me out of their spam folder. It's basically the Trump campaign applied to junior associate lateraling. Also, they won't care so will forget but remember the name sounding familiar, which is step one.

My concern is I think they'd flood them with candidates, and I'd be stuck with a recruiter who never even asked or learned of this job. I had assumed that if I fired them then the relationship ends and all outstanding submissions are erased, but am now worried it's not that easy. Is it?

My current plan is to answer the inevitable call, and immediately transition to talking about my family picnic and asking to grab coffee. They'll think I'm bonkers. They're too aggressive for aggression to be fruitful, and aggressive people perceive being ignored as aggressive.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:20 am**

RaceJudicata wrote:
Regardless, I'm sorta confused about what happened/is happening.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:30 am**

If they sent the resume in first then they will get the fee. You don't get to fire them and pretend they don't exist or didn't send out your resume first.

It's common that these places spam resumes.

Did you read whatever you signed with them?

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:53 am**

MCFC wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Regardless, I'm sorta confused about what happened/is happening.

My understanding:

OP hires recruiter 1 that sent out a bunch of emails with his resume and did nothing else.

OP then hired recruiter 2 and they find a job at a firm.

Firm does search and finds recruiter 1 had already submitted resume.

OP contacts recruiter 1 thinking they will back off their fee.

They won't.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:04 am**

Npret wrote:
MCFC wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Regardless, I'm sorta confused about what happened/is happening.
My understanding:

OP hires recruiter 1 that sent out a bunch of emails with his resume and did nothing else.

OP then hired recruiter 2 and they find a job at a firm.

Firm does search and finds recruiter 1 had already submitted resume.

OP contacts recruiter 1 thinking they will back off their fee.

They won't.

Oh, either I misread it the the first time or the edits to the OP made it more clear, but I didn't understand that OP had actually gotten the new job.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:39 am**

Recruiters should be a last resort- not a first stop before lateraling. There are a few good ones, but they tend to be the exception.

General rule in life: never buy any good or service that was solicited to you if you did not directly invite the solicitation.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:46 am**

MCFC wrote:
Npret wrote:
MCFC wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Regardless, I'm sorta confused about what happened/is happening.
My understanding:

OP hires recruiter 1 that sent out a bunch of emails with his resume and did nothing else.

OP then hired recruiter 2 and they find a job at a firm.

Firm does search and finds recruiter 1 had already submitted resume.

OP contacts recruiter 1 thinking they will back off their fee.

They won't.
Oh, either I misread it the the first time or the edits to the OP made it more clear, but I didn't understand that OP had actually gotten the new job.

Not sure he got the job actually, just that firm 2 found it but in a search firm 1 came up as already submitting the resume. I just assumed the fight was over the fee but I can see I added my take on the post.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:52 pm**

This is OP - there was no contract signed. None of this was disclosed, and nothing signed. Basically, even if I applied anywhere on my own, they're saying they will get their $50k or my career will be over, they're connected, etc. None of this was ever disclosed until I asked to stop working together, and for the applications to be rescinded.

I realize now that recruiters are not trustworthy, but this isn't something I would have known. Nobody at the office talks about it, and my only prior exposure were law firm recruiters. While their enthusiasm and friendliness is somewhat of a show, they're mostly good people. My issue with what's going on is they never really recruited me, and essentially monopolized my ability to make a move based off of false assurances and not disclosing that they own my right to move to any of these places. This is also a very large recruiting company with tens of millions of dollars. It's not like I went to borrow money from the Italian mafia. Sure, I could have done more research but it never crossed my mind.

1.) Will firing them release my applications from future submissions? If I fired them today and then next week a new recruiter submitted me to Firm C, will I be free?

2.) Do I have a professional duty to tell them where the opening is as they claim?

3.) Would forwarding their threatening emails to ATL hurt me? ATL consistently references them for interview advice and assessing the legal market? - unless you checked the BBB or Yelp, you wouldn't know how bad their reputation is.

4.) Does the fact i never signed a contract, never had their rights as first submitter disclosed and the fact there have been almost no submissions except random market low paying "take a hint - stop contacting me" submissions that indicate an intent to monopolize my market but not make a bona fide effort to help me find employment in any way change anything?

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:14 pm**

So you didn't get the job, only an interview? And they still want $50,000?

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:45 pm**

I don't understand how they have your resume to send out or how you would fire them without some sort of agreement. There has to be some kind of term or something. If you just have a verbal agreement I don't know why you can't cancel.

You just gave them your resume? No written contact nothing?

Something doesn't add up.

Also stop acting like you shouldn't have known better. It doesn't help you. Of course you should have known better whether they are all over ATL or not. You can't just have people sending out your resume everywhere.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:46 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:This is OP - there was no contract signed. None of this was disclosed, and nothing signed. Basically, even if I applied anywhere on my own, they're saying they will get their $50k or my career will be over, they're connected, etc. None of this was ever disclosed until I asked to stop working together, and for the applications to be rescinded.

I realize now that recruiters are not trustworthy, but this isn't something I would have known. Nobody at the office talks about it, and my only prior exposure were law firm recruiters. While their enthusiasm and friendliness is somewhat of a show, they're mostly good people. My issue with what's going on is they never really recruited me, and essentially monopolized my ability to make a move based off of false assurances and not disclosing that they own my right to move to any of these places. This is also a very large recruiting company with tens of millions of dollars. It's not like I went to borrow money from the Italian mafia. Sure, I could have done more research but it never crossed my mind.

1.) Will firing them release my applications from future submissions? If I fired them today and then next week a new recruiter submitted me to Firm C, will I be free?

2.) Do I have a professional duty to tell them where the opening is as they claim?

3.) Would forwarding their threatening emails to ATL hurt me? ATL consistently references them for interview advice and assessing the legal market? - unless you checked the BBB or Yelp, you wouldn't know how bad their reputation is.

4.) Does the fact i never signed a contract, never had their rights as first submitter disclosed and the fact there have been almost no submissions except random market low paying "take a hint - stop contacting me" submissions that indicate an intent to monopolize my market but not make a bona fide effort to help me find employment in any way change anything?

A few questions: 1) did you get a job offer? if not, this is a nonissue. 2) if you did, did you give permission to the first company to send your resume to this firm? If not, this is on them, not you. 3) if you both have the offer and you did give them permission, sign the offer and let it go. it's not your business who gets what fee. that's between the recruiters and the firm. they're the clients, not you. you're just currency.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:50 pm**

It's still an issue because OP seems to have given them blanket permission to send out his resume.
If OP gets another job, chances are they already submitted his resume.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:01 pm**

This is OP. No offer yet -- but the scheduling has been pushed off because of concerns about 2 recruiters claiming full commission. My gist of the situation is the previous email went into the spam folder, and didn't show up when they searched their inbox history but showed up when searching all folders.

On the contract issue - I approved them sending their list of "targeted openings", but there was no contract saying I'd exclusively work with them. From a legal sense, the issue is whether this is implied and whether assurances they would work to find targeted jobs to help place me are trade puffery or need to be in writing. If it's over a year, isn't this Statute of Frauds problem?

The issue is further complicated by the fact they said there are no jobs in Area B so just submitted to A. In retrospect, I don't think these places actually had openings and that they essentially just copied and mailing list into a mailbox so it wound up in spam folders. My interview is with one of these places for B.

The recruiter is saying I have an ethical duty to tell them where the opening is, and they won't agree that they won't send other people there. The impression I get from it is they want me to tell them about openings they don't know about so they can try to place there. Sure, I can ignore them but the fact they're threatening to harm my reputation in writing no less (which I realize they can't do) makes me think this won't just stop.

Again, please don't quote, because the company will know and I still don't know what my legal rights and obligations are.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:09 pm**

Npret wrote:
It's still an issue because OP seems to have given them blanket permission to send out his resume.
If OP gets another job, chances are they already submitted his resume.

Exactly.

It's hard to "think like a lawyer" when you're personally upset about something, but the more I get over the shell shock, the more rational and less angry I get.

Does anyone know the answers to these 3 questions:

(1) Did I implicitly agree to some kind of contract by saying "Yes, I approve this list" if nothing else came up, even if I fired them.

(2) If so, how long does this last, and if it's over a year then isn't this an SOF issue? i guess an e-mail can be a signed writing, but can time be left blank and if so then is the standard fill in >1 year?

(3) If (1) and (2) are yes then does the evidentiary chain with the initial mass mail create any kind of "course of dealing" or implied expectations such that being ignored is essentially a breach of their implied obligations, thus enabling me to void the implied contract?

It hurts me, because I impose the same cost on firms as if I had a recruiter, but I don't have the connections, time or ability about openings every day. The expectation, which was never disclosed until yesterday was that they control my relationships with these firms, will simply work with me as they see fit (which is implicitly never or 2 minutes every few weeks) and that I have the add'l obligation to tell them about any openings or they'll see to it that every firm will perceive me negatively -

I don't care about the last point. I know that's a bullshit threat, and they'll just come across as a maniac. To be honest, I actually think them calling every firm to soil my reputation would benefit me, because they would actually be doing a recruiter's job - putting my name in their heads. I think the resumes were just automated on a piece of software, and went to the spam folder. Now they might search the spam folder, see my resume and think, "Oh, bring them in".

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:19 pm**

You don't need to think like a lawyer about all your possible claims.

You have probably screwed yourself for any job that both firms submitted resumes for- it doesn't matter that it went to spam. It only matters that two firms are going to make the claim and fight for it and cause issues for the potential hiring firm.

I don't have any advice for you other than terminate your relationship and ask for a list of all firms they have contacted. Though without an agreement I don't know how you terminate - maybe the same way you set this up?

The second firm didn't ask you if you were working with other recruiters? I find it hard to believe that the second firm wouldn't do more diligence before they started working for you. It sounds like you had 2 recruiting firms working simultaneously but neither was aware of this fact.

I still don't think we have the entire story because I can't see a recruiting company just sending out resumes with no permission.

I think you are chasing your tail trying to figure out your legal recourse when it seems like you screwed up by hiring two recruiters without limiting what they were supposed to do. It's going to hurt you everywhere that both firms sent in resumes.

I could be wrong but that's the best sense I can make of this. You haven't even set out the facts clearly, so I could be completely wrong.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:42 pm**

they did - I didn't realize I was submitted there until I learned that I was - I didn't think they'd be one of them because they focus on Environmental (hypothetical example), and I was submitted for Public Financing, which is incidental to Environmental, but there was no Public Financing position available - the job Company 1 submitted for didn't exist, but I guess the firm could have said, "we don't have a PF finance position, but let's bring them in for E." It's a long shot, but it's not Jesus walking on water either. It wasn't one of the firms that was discussed, and again, they never mentioned I'd be bound to work with them - they even said they recommend I work with an add'l recruiter if I wanted Area B.

I hadn't heard from the other one, and they had told me there are no jobs in Area B so I just blindly assumed I hadn't been submitted there. When I approved the first list of "targeted openings", they pointed to their experience and how many first and second years they place. I didn't actually go to page 2, page 3, etc.

I didn't really hire them. They called and said they have a list of positions I'd be a good fit for. I'm not even sure if they actually live in my city, because they were never able to meet in person - there was something tentative but it was delayed, and contact fell off after the mass mailing.

Again, this is a company that Above the Law constantly quotes forum, and pitches as a legitimately trustworthy company because they supply a lot of articles. I'm not blaming ATL - they're the National Enquire of legal news. ATL publications are about as legitimate as the National Enquirer reporting that a T-Rex was walking through Washington. For me, this was partly a learning experience, because I had thought ATL was somewhere between E! Entertainment and an Archie comic book. I didn't realize that they were probably accepting money from recruiting companies to publish guest articles. Again, ATL does furnish good information and they don't claim to be a legitimate news source so it's unfair to expect them to have any basic integrity.

But if you searched their name, you'd mostly find ATL articles written by their Executive Director, and statements that these people are barred attorneys so are trustworthy, etc. In hindsight, obviously I was dumb, but I don't know how I would have been less dumb - I don't really have non-professional connections in the legal industry who I could ask about using a recruiter, and my friends from law school had great experiences with recruiters - their recruiters never submitted me anywhere, which in hindsight should've been a cue that a company was a scam with all these targeted openings was a scam.

I guess the other thing is if they're threatening to harm my reputation, and suggesting I have an ethical duty to inform them of open positions - would it make sense to proactively report the matter to C&F? The recruiter is also an attorney, and if I'm ethically wrong here, I'd want to correct it, but if they're ethically wrong, I'd want them to correct it.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:29 pm**

Ignoring the recruiter's lack of professionalism and empty threats.....

Both firms have a legit claim for any fee from the employer, mostly because you screwed up. Yes a mass-mail strategy is crappy, but you appear to have agreed to let them send your resume wherever they wanted without approval. You made it worse by not checking with them to see where they had sent your resume before telling the second recruiter something you didn't actually know.

You're probably screwed on this position unless you blow the other candidates away the firm isn't going to want to deal with a fight between recruiters over the fee. You should inform recruiter 1 that you rescind permission for them to distribute your resume and get a list of everywhere that they sent you (recruiter 2 as well unless you plan to keep working with them) to prevent this from happening again.

You're looking at this as the recruiter not having done anything and wanting to get paid. The flip-side of that is... they did what they said they would, sent you to a firm that now is considering hiring you, and you are trying to get them to disclaim a fee they earned.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:23 pm**

isn't the industry norm that recruiters are not allowed to send your resume to a specific firm without your permission? i thought asking for blanket permission is considered unethical.

hang in there OP. it sounds like you're transactional; the market should be good for you, and if the firm is still interested, it means they don't blame you for the mix-up. just beware of certain recruiters in the future. when i was lateraling, i had one recruiter that ruined two opportunities for me by submitting inappropriate cover letters. i still managed to find something.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:39 pm**

The thing is if the recruiter rescinds to rescind my applications moving forward, what are my options?

I honestly was never told i would be locked in for a year, etc. I let them know this, and also communicated a willingness to send $10k, because I would pay that even though i'd be running myself paycheck to paycheck for a while - loan repayments, and family obligations.

I also know that can't be used as evidence against me if it went to court, because it was an attempt to settle a dispute I already implied I would get a lawyer for - they basically - tell me the opening now so my recruiting firm can know about the opening or I'm going to call every firm, and tell them what happened - (which I guess, "Hi, firm X. i'm a sociopath, and can't shake down this young lawyer i'm trying to rip off." I followed that by saying, I need legal advice to assess what my rights and obligations are. If you think it's smart to follow through on your threats, carpe diem."

I'm not speaking about the one firm here.

I'm speaking about the big picture. They're not rescinding them, and we're talking potentially about them wanting $50k+ to essentially be free, which would require me to pull out non-family connections, which is stupid but I also need to make a move. That's why I could hire a lawyer for a few thousand dollars, or submit a complaint with the bar. There was never any conversation or signature, and I think the email chain would clearly show they were trying to take advantage of first years.

As a lawsuit, the damages are there but might be speculative. With the bar, if they see it's shady shit, I don't have to prove duty, breach, etc., I just have to show they were dishonest, and used their license to perpetuate fraud. The hope they'd back off, and not do take advantage of young lawyers by using the fact they're an attorney bound by the same ethical obligations again.

I got hounded by recruiters during this period, and honestly ignored them all. I specifically trusted this person, because they said don't worry, I am a lawyer bound by the same ethical duties as you, and I work for one of the top recruiting companies in the world. I can't go into a time machine, and know what I would have done, but if you take the "I am a lawyer and bound....", there's a good chance I would not have been as trusting and at the very least they shouldn't be able to use that sentence again.

I get it's a pain in the butt with this job, but my bigger concern is going forward - what can I do to be able to take charge of my career? We're talking about a one hour phone conversation with no contract with the only mistake I made being send the resumes - bear in mind there's no disclosure of exclusiveness or a time frame I'm stuck with them before.

This is also someone who has been ignoring my calls for weeks, and may not even be in the same state (the phone # is just a vanity # - I only found this where their calls were coming from) - their website puts them in a very expensive area, but when I called the property manager yesterday, I learned they've only got a couple offices there even though more than a dozen people have that address.

You never think to investigate until something happens, but even the CEO of this company has been using the same pictures for like 15 years. Granted their temples were receding, and people get self conscious but it's almost like some poor guy got kidnapped, posed for some professional photos and a bunch of trolls in a cave somewhere are running a recruiting company. I think there's enough sketchy shit under the rug that the slightest hit back would get me free... granted, it could also make things worse. I don't know - I'm very frustrated and confused.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:48 am**

Stop asking everyone for legal advice.

That said, I have no fucking idea what kind of recruiter you managed to get yourself entangled with here. You agreed to pay them $10k? For the service of them spamming your resume to everyone on the planet and then extorting you in the event you actually get a job?

This whole story makes no sense but it seems like this recruiter is just scamming you. There is basically no legitimate scenario I can imagine in which you would owe a recruiter $50k.

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:15 am**

Damn, lateral link sucks, right? Take note @davidlat

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:09 am**

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Stop asking everyone for legal advice.

That said, I have no fucking idea what kind of recruiter you managed to get yourself entangled with here. You agreed to pay them $10k? For the service of them spamming your resume to everyone on the planet and then extorting you in the event you actually get a job?

This whole story makes no sense but it seems like this recruiter is just scamming you. There is basically no legitimate scenario I can imagine in which you would owe a recruiter $50k.

I think he's talking about paying them instead of the firm paying them? So if he gets a job the firm pays one recruiter and he pays the other? Hard to tell because he can't create a coherent story.

I will say it again that OP is not telling the entire story. I am guessing that OP gave them his resume and maybe permission to send it to firms that might have openings. I think OP has had more contact with both firms, if they exist, then he has explained.

No one just has a firm spam resumes and then hires a second firm. No recruiting firm works for someone without doing diligence as to which firms have already received resumes. Oh maybe OP didn't tell the second recruiter about the first?

Note: OP claims he didn't hire them...but how did they get his resume? He must have signed off on a long laundry list of firms.

It's hard to tell because OPs story keeps changing. Now this $10,000 comes from nowhere, what?

I'm finally ready to call this a flame.
Seems important to OP that people figure out the name of the firm.

In the event it's real, OP already has advice based on the little he told us.

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Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options? Forum

Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

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Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?

Re: Lateral Recruiting: Recruiter Threats - Are they right, and what are my options?