Hating Biglaw - Please Help Forum

[Anonymous User]

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your situation isn't at all comparable to OP's. You're living on a dual income of $250k, you work pretty much a unicorn job ($100k at 1500 hours isn't the kind of position that's easy to find--especially for a junior associate), in what I would assume is a lower COL area, with what appears to be little to no student debt (because good luck taking on a huge mortgage note for an income property with six figures of student debt). This isn't the situation that most lawyers slaving away in big law face. So, coming in here with some unrealistic faux-pep talk ("Just start a business! Just buy an income property! It's easy as long as you live below your means!") isn't helpful.

I own four investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt, no dual income, and regional biglaw. So the only thing I agree with is that if you're in NYC this might not be possible, but even then you could invest out of state. I've only been in biglaw for a year and a half too, and had -1500 in my bank account when I started.

[nealric]

OP here with a sort of non-update.

Everyone here was right in that I have gotten more used to things but still totally hate it. I have started applying to other jobs but no luck so far.

But, I re-read the advice in this thread and it is mostly great, so thanks again.

What kind of jobs have you been applying to OP?

I'm applying to basically any in-house job that lists an experience requirement of 3 years or less. I obviously don't have enough legal experience, but I do have a few years of non-legal work experience before law school that will hopefully help in some way.

This is doing it wrong. Spamming resumes is not how you get an in-house job.

[Anonymous User]

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your situation isn't at all comparable to OP's. You're living on a dual income of $250k, you work pretty much a unicorn job ($100k at 1500 hours isn't the kind of position that's easy to find--especially for a junior associate), in what I would assume is a lower COL area, with what appears to be little to no student debt (because good luck taking on a huge mortgage note for an income property with six figures of student debt). This isn't the situation that most lawyers slaving away in big law face. So, coming in here with some unrealistic faux-pep talk ("Just start a business! Just buy an income property! It's easy as long as you live below your means!") isn't helpful.

I own four investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt, no dual income, and regional biglaw. So the only thing I agree with is that if you're in NYC this might not be possible, but even then you could invest out of state. I've only been in biglaw for a year and a half too, and had -1500 in my bank account when I started.

Lol. This one is funny.

4 investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt sounds like a pretty bizarre situation. Let's break this down

1) No bank is going to loan you money for a house when you have 110k at a 6-7% interest rate
2) You likely can't afford a house (let alone, 4) if you've only made $270,000 MAX (before taxes). Maybe somewhere like Cleveland, OH. But not in NY, LA, Chi, or anywhere in California, really.

So you either
1) Come from money
or
2) inherited the 4 investment properties
or
3) You're an alchemist and can make money out of thin air

[nealric]

I only worked at Biglaw as an office clerk during undergrad so I can't give good advice but my 2 years there was enough for me to say no f***king way is it worth being a lawyer here. Biglaw just seems like such a terrible way to make money. When you do the math the hourly rate is pathetic. Biglaw partners make their fortune working their associates to the bone while giving off the illusion that "this life is the dream." All the "perks" are just ways to make sure you have no excuse to ever leave the building. There are just so many better ways to make money with all of the time you spend at Biglaw. I currently work at a small firm at $100k with a 1500 billable hour requirement. I never work on weekends and rarely work past 5pm. I spend my spare time on an export business I started with my sister and bought a multi-family apartment complex with my husband, both of which bring in great income. I guess my point is that Biglaw is not the only way to make good money. If you enjoy it then by all means make yo paper boo boo. But if you hate it (and I don't blame you) then to hell with it. Life is too damn short to spend any moment of it unhappy. I'm turning 30 this year which means I'm going to be dead in 60 years if I'm lucky. So I have maybe 40 good years left before things start to hurt. The people who have responded are much more qualified to give advice but I don't think the "it gets easier" is an approach I would ever take. You can't put a price on a piece of mind.

Just do buy a multi-family apartment complex and start a business on your $100k salary at age 30.

Sincerely,
Person With A Lot of Money Telling You Not to Worry About Money

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

A lot of people who preach "just do real estate, bro" don't realize how far south deals like that can go. The vast majority of small-time investors are super highly leveraged. This can go well if you can keep a full roster of tenants at the market rate you forecast. But with that much leverage, you can get in trouble very quick if a bunch of tenants leave, the building needs some huge unexpected repair, a recession causes market rents to decline, etc.

This is especially true if it's your first rodeo, and it's possible even if you are savvy. Even very good professional real estate investors pick lemons. When you are small time, you are not diversified, and you can't afford to buy a lemon. Another issue is that managing rental properties is a part time job in and of itself. Sure, you can outsource everything, but that will cut into a lot of the value-add of owning the properties directly (as opposed to a passive investment vehicle like public REITs). If you just want to roll the dice on highly leveraged investments, you can always go to town trading options (which of course has equal or greater potential for generating financial calamity).

Finally, the biglaw analysis is very misleading. Yes, a biglaw junior may bill 200 hours a month (though more like 175 is average and almost nobody consistently bills 300). But not every dollar billed will be collected, and there's a lot of overhead to consider- real estate, benefits, technology infrastructure, etc. In the end a fully-utilized junior associate is profitable for the firm, but they certainly aren't making $500/hr off you.

[Anonymous User]

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your situation isn't at all comparable to OP's. You're living on a dual income of $250k, you work pretty much a unicorn job ($100k at 1500 hours isn't the kind of position that's easy to find--especially for a junior associate), in what I would assume is a lower COL area, with what appears to be little to no student debt (because good luck taking on a huge mortgage note for an income property with six figures of student debt). This isn't the situation that most lawyers slaving away in big law face. So, coming in here with some unrealistic faux-pep talk ("Just start a business! Just buy an income property! It's easy as long as you live below your means!") isn't helpful.

I own four investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt, no dual income, and regional biglaw. So the only thing I agree with is that if you're in NYC this might not be possible, but even then you could invest out of state. I've only been in biglaw for a year and a half too, and had -1500 in my bank account when I started.

Lol. This one is funny.

4 investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt sounds like a pretty bizarre situation. Let's break this down

1) No bank is going to loan you money for a house when you have 110k at a 6-7% interest rate
2) You likely can't afford a house (let alone, 4) if you've only made $270,000 MAX (before taxes). Maybe somewhere like Cleveland, OH. But not in NY, LA, Chi, or anywhere in California, really.

So you either
1) Come from money
or
2) inherited the 4 investment properties
or
3) You're an alchemist and can make money out of thin air

Hate to anon but identifiable info if you know me -
Yes you can get a loan, literally just got a loan yesterday with that much debt and I'm not even biglaw. This is to buy my 3rd investment property and I have a residence. No not the places you mentioned but a not insignificant state. And no I did not inherit them or get them from family money.

I guess I like the idea that I'm an alchemist. I'll tell people that now.

But the guy above is right, probably shouldn't try this at home kids. Being a landlord is challenging.

[Anonymous User]

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your situation isn't at all comparable to OP's. You're living on a dual income of $250k, you work pretty much a unicorn job ($100k at 1500 hours isn't the kind of position that's easy to find--especially for a junior associate), in what I would assume is a lower COL area, with what appears to be little to no student debt (because good luck taking on a huge mortgage note for an income property with six figures of student debt). This isn't the situation that most lawyers slaving away in big law face. So, coming in here with some unrealistic faux-pep talk ("Just start a business! Just buy an income property! It's easy as long as you live below your means!") isn't helpful.

I own four investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt, no dual income, and regional biglaw. So the only thing I agree with is that if you're in NYC this might not be possible, but even then you could invest out of state. I've only been in biglaw for a year and a half too, and had -1500 in my bank account when I started.

Lol. This one is funny.

4 investment properties with 110k plus in student loan debt sounds like a pretty bizarre situation. Let's break this down

1) No bank is going to loan you money for a house when you have 110k at a 6-7% interest rate
2) You likely can't afford a house (let alone, 4) if you've only made $270,000 MAX (before taxes). Maybe somewhere like Cleveland, OH. But not in NY, LA, Chi, or anywhere in California, really.

So you either
1) Come from money
or
2) inherited the 4 investment properties
or
3) You're an alchemist and can make money out of thin air

Not a prior poster ITT, but it seems like you're totally ignorant with regard to real estate, bro. The earlier poster with the 6-unit had the seller carry the note, and even if she hadn't it would have been a commercial loan based on the deal fundamentals. Those aren't conforming residential mortgages. At 4 units or less, the poster you replied to likely got conforming residential mortgages, but the bank cares more about his DTI than the balance of the loan. His payment might be on a refinanced low interest loan with a low payment for all you know. If his loans are 2.x% why wouldn't he just carry them and invest? Not at all unbelievable.

[Anonymous User]

OP here with a sort of non-update.

Everyone here was right in that I have gotten more used to things but still totally hate it. I have started applying to other jobs but no luck so far.

But, I re-read the advice in this thread and it is mostly great, so thanks again.

What kind of jobs have you been applying to OP?

I'm applying to basically any in-house job that lists an experience requirement of 3 years or less. I obviously don't have enough legal experience, but I do have a few years of non-legal work experience before law school that will hopefully help in some way.

This is doing it wrong. Spamming resumes is not how you get an in-house job.

OP here. You are probably right about that, and I was overstating the degree of spamming a bit (I am trying to select things that would be a good fit if I did have the right level of experience), but can you suggest what you think the right way is? And by that I mean, the right way for someone like me, with 6 months of biglaw experience?

The only answer I have gotten to that question is "work in biglaw 3-5 years then apply" which isn't really useful for my purposes.

[Anonymous User]

2 quick points that went unmentioned:

1.) If you don't have a family, money doesn't provide the same motivation. If you have a family, when you get home at 2 AM, you see your loved ones sleeping and think "this is what I'm working for". Without this, it's really all hypothetical.

2.) There are also medical and psychological costs. An abusive work environment is more costly in big law, because there's a good chance that all your human interaction on a given day will be with the people you work with. If you speak to any recruiter, they'll tell you about some 40-year old Harvard alum with a robotic personality and no self confidence whatsoever. There's a very good chance the person was not that way when they entered big law. It's very hard to predict your work environment, because recruiting won't let the nightmare lawyers within 50 feet of a summer associate and nightmare lawyers tend to not give a shit about summer associates. Your experience as a summer or a lateral interview is self selecting, because lawyers that care about attorney development are by definition not sociopathic.

[nealric]

OP here with a sort of non-update.

Everyone here was right in that I have gotten more used to things but still totally hate it. I have started applying to other jobs but no luck so far.

But, I re-read the advice in this thread and it is mostly great, so thanks again.

What kind of jobs have you been applying to OP?

I'm applying to basically any in-house job that lists an experience requirement of 3 years or less. I obviously don't have enough legal experience, but I do have a few years of non-legal work experience before law school that will hopefully help in some way.

This is doing it wrong. Spamming resumes is not how you get an in-house job.

OP here. You are probably right about that, and I was overstating the degree of spamming a bit (I am trying to select things that would be a good fit if I did have the right level of experience), but can you suggest what you think the right way is? And by that I mean, the right way for someone like me, with 6 months of biglaw experience?

The only answer I have gotten to that question is "work in biglaw 3-5 years then apply" which isn't really useful for my purposes.

Yeah, 6 months is tough. You need to work hard to meet people. That doesn't mean attend a "networking conference." It means getting out there and specifically meeting people who are in-house and finding out who needs someone. The #1 most important thing is to have your resume in the hands of an actual decision maker- not HR. Also best if you can market yourself as having some specific skillset. The world is full of generic lawyers.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I only worked at Biglaw as an office clerk during undergrad so I can't give good advice but my 2 years there was enough for me to say no f***king way is it worth being a lawyer here. Biglaw just seems like such a terrible way to make money. When you do the math the hourly rate is pathetic. Biglaw partners make their fortune working their associates to the bone while giving off the illusion that "this life is the dream." All the "perks" are just ways to make sure you have no excuse to ever leave the building. There are just so many better ways to make money with all of the time you spend at Biglaw. I currently work at a small firm at $100k with a 1500 billable hour requirement. I never work on weekends and rarely work past 5pm. I spend my spare time on an export business I started with my sister and bought a multi-family apartment complex with my husband, both of which bring in great income. I guess my point is that Biglaw is not the only way to make good money. If you enjoy it then by all means make yo paper boo boo. But if you hate it (and I don't blame you) then to hell with it. Life is too damn short to spend any moment of it unhappy. I'm turning 30 this year which means I'm going to be dead in 60 years if I'm lucky. So I have maybe 40 good years left before things start to hurt. The people who have responded are much more qualified to give advice but I don't think the "it gets easier" is an approach I would ever take. You can't put a price on a piece of mind.

Just do buy a multi-family apartment complex and start a business on your $100k salary at age 30.

Sincerely,
Person With A Lot of Money Telling You Not to Worry About Money

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone believe this might have anything to do with OP being from a TTT? I am also from a TTT /headed to v10 summer and sometimes I worry that I won't be cut out for BigLaw. Maybe just some imposter syndrome.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone believe this might have anything to do with OP being from a TTT? I am also from a TTT /headed to v10 summer and sometimes I worry that I won't be cut out for BigLaw. Maybe just some imposter syndrome.

As a T10 school graduate that went to a good undergrad, I can say that the OP probably hates biglaw because it is a miserable job.

[Anonymous User]

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

Not the pp you are quoting but a different anon pp. I got the money by buying a fixer upper on a first time buyers home construction loan combo and fixing it up to sell (lived in it which sucks so much). Then bought rentals with that and mortgages and then saved up. Now can buy another. Despite school debt.

[Anonymous User]

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

Not the pp you are quoting but a different anon pp. I got the money by buying a fixer upper on a first time buyers home construction loan combo and fixing it up to sell (lived in it which sucks so much). Then bought rentals with that and mortgages and then saved up. Now can buy another. Despite school debt.

Yeah, this. Three posters say it's impossible to do--who have never bought real estate--while three posters who do invest say that it's not. Only on TLS.

[Anonymous User]

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

Not the pp you are quoting but a different anon pp. I got the money by buying a fixer upper on a first time buyers home construction loan combo and fixing it up to sell (lived in it which sucks so much). Then bought rentals with that and mortgages and then saved up. Now can buy another. Despite school debt.

It just doesn't even sound smart to maintain a 110k loan on 6-7% interest while simultaneously trying to buy properties. Why not pay off your debt first?

[Anonymous User]

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

Not the pp you are quoting but a different anon pp. I got the money by buying a fixer upper on a first time buyers home construction loan combo and fixing it up to sell (lived in it which sucks so much). Then bought rentals with that and mortgages and then saved up. Now can buy another. Despite school debt.

It just doesn't even sound smart to maintain a 110k loan on 6-7% interest while simultaneously trying to buy properties. Why not pay off your debt first?

When your cash on cash investment equals 12-13% and you get loan paydown, appreciation, and tax benefits, I believe that I'm beating my highest interest rate loans by a long shot.

[Anonymous User]

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

Not the pp you are quoting but a different anon pp. I got the money by buying a fixer upper on a first time buyers home construction loan combo and fixing it up to sell (lived in it which sucks so much). Then bought rentals with that and mortgages and then saved up. Now can buy another. Despite school debt.

It just doesn't even sound smart to maintain a 110k loan on 6-7% interest while simultaneously trying to buy properties. Why not pay off your debt first?

When your cash on cash investment equals 12-13% and you get loan paydown, appreciation, and tax benefits, I believe that I'm beating my highest interest rate loans by a long shot.

Yup this. Why location matters for the selection of your rentals. Plus equity, yay. I'm a very patient person.

This is not for everyone. I can get work done cheap, I have the temperament to deal with tenants, and I enjoy the hunt for the right place. I see people fail at this ALL THE TIME. I think it's easy, but I cannot recommend it to everyone.

[Anonymous User]

I only worked at Biglaw as an office clerk during undergrad so I can't give good advice but my 2 years there was enough for me to say no f***king way is it worth being a lawyer here. Biglaw just seems like such a terrible way to make money. When you do the math the hourly rate is pathetic. Biglaw partners make their fortune working their associates to the bone while giving off the illusion that "this life is the dream." All the "perks" are just ways to make sure you have no excuse to ever leave the building. There are just so many better ways to make money with all of the time you spend at Biglaw. I currently work at a small firm at $100k with a 1500 billable hour requirement. I never work on weekends and rarely work past 5pm. I spend my spare time on an export business I started with my sister and bought a multi-family apartment complex with my husband, both of which bring in great income. I guess my point is that Biglaw is not the only way to make good money. If you enjoy it then by all means make yo paper boo boo. But if you hate it (and I don't blame you) then to hell with it. Life is too damn short to spend any moment of it unhappy. I'm turning 30 this year which means I'm going to be dead in 60 years if I'm lucky. So I have maybe 40 good years left before things start to hurt. The people who have responded are much more qualified to give advice but I don't think the "it gets easier" is an approach I would ever take. You can't put a price on a piece of mind.

Just do buy a multi-family apartment complex and start a business on your $100k salary at age 30.

Sincerely,
Person With A Lot of Money Telling You Not to Worry About Money

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

First of all, my message to OP is not "buy rental income" and "start a business" and everything will be sweet. My message is that there are literally thousands of ways to make money. For the most part the overall message of TLS is Biglaw or bust and for most people this is true. But for some it is a wrong decision and then they feel trapped. They did everything the "right way" but why aren't they happy with their career? A lot of people become financially successful doing a million other things aside from being a lawyer. In fact, some of the best business people are former lawyers. You can call bullshit all you want. Never once did I say I graduated law school and POOF became a successful landlord. My husband and I have been married for 10 years and we both always worked. We lived in a studio apartment and saved our pennies to have enough to buy a house. But when we decided to take that leap we said, HEY why not save a little more and get units instead? No one thinks it's strange that a couple buys a house but everyone thinks you have to be a millionaire to buy rentals. And this is only because MOST people buy rentals as investment property AFTER they already have a house. We went the opposite direction, which turned out to be a better investment. Getting a seller to carry a note isn't as hard as it sounds, especially when they know the property itself will generate income. A lot of sellers don't want to pay capital gains on investment property and don't have any interest in a 1031 exchange. Entering into a promissory note with a buyer who has skin in the game is appealing for them because 1) they can spread out their capital gains, 2) they now have a sweet monthly income without dealing with the headaches of being a landlord, and 3) if the buyer doesn't pay they will foreclose and get their property back. This is not always the best decision for people for a number of reasons. For one, good luck buying rentals in a nice neighborhood unless you actually are a millionaire and most people don't want to live in s**ty neighborhoods if they can afford not to. Also, a lot of people don't want to deal with tenants. My husband has unclogged one too many toilets and drains and replaced doors, sinks, and floors. Vacancies suck and so do bad tenants. But AGAIN, I am not telling OP to go buy apartments and thrive! I'm just saying stop doing what you hate and don't feel guilty about letting go of the Biglaw cash. Find another way to make money and consider non-day job ways to make your money work for you.

[HonestAdvice]

The real estate market today is different. The people who made a killing nought bad neighborhoods that got cleaned up. There aren't as many bad neighborhoods now. In the good ol days when murder rates were high, the market bottomed out. Until the gangs get their act together and start killing innocent people, the returns won't be as promising.

[Itiswritten]

I only worked at Biglaw as an office clerk during undergrad so I can't give good advice but my 2 years there was enough for me to say no f***king way is it worth being a lawyer here. Biglaw just seems like such a terrible way to make money. When you do the math the hourly rate is pathetic. Biglaw partners make their fortune working their associates to the bone while giving off the illusion that "this life is the dream." All the "perks" are just ways to make sure you have no excuse to ever leave the building. There are just so many better ways to make money with all of the time you spend at Biglaw. I currently work at a small firm at $100k with a 1500 billable hour requirement. I never work on weekends and rarely work past 5pm. I spend my spare time on an export business I started with my sister and bought a multi-family apartment complex with my husband, both of which bring in great income. I guess my point is that Biglaw is not the only way to make good money. If you enjoy it then by all means make yo paper boo boo. But if you hate it (and I don't blame you) then to hell with it. Life is too damn short to spend any moment of it unhappy. I'm turning 30 this year which means I'm going to be dead in 60 years if I'm lucky. So I have maybe 40 good years left before things start to hurt. The people who have responded are much more qualified to give advice but I don't think the "it gets easier" is an approach I would ever take. You can't put a price on a piece of mind.

Just do buy a multi-family apartment complex and start a business on your $100k salary at age 30.

Sincerely,
Person With A Lot of Money Telling You Not to Worry About Money

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

First of all, my message to OP is not "buy rental income" and "start a business" and everything will be sweet. My message is that there are literally thousands of ways to make money. For the most part the overall message of TLS is Biglaw or bust and for most people this is true. But for some it is a wrong decision and then they feel trapped. They did everything the "right way" but why aren't they happy with their career? A lot of people become financially successful doing a million other things aside from being a lawyer. In fact, some of the best business people are former lawyers. You can call bullshit all you want. Never once did I say I graduated law school and POOF became a successful landlord. My husband and I have been married for 10 years and we both always worked. We lived in a studio apartment and saved our pennies to have enough to buy a house. But when we decided to take that leap we said, HEY why not save a little more and get units instead? No one thinks it's strange that a couple buys a house but everyone thinks you have to be a millionaire to buy rentals. And this is only because MOST people buy rentals as investment property AFTER they already have a house. We went the opposite direction, which turned out to be a better investment. Getting a seller to carry a note isn't as hard as it sounds, especially when they know the property itself will generate income. A lot of sellers don't want to pay capital gains on investment property and don't have any interest in a 1031 exchange. Entering into a promissory note with a buyer who has skin in the game is appealing for them because 1) they can spread out their capital gains, 2) they now have a sweet monthly income without dealing with the headaches of being a landlord, and 3) if the buyer doesn't pay they will foreclose and get their property back. This is not always the best decision for people for a number of reasons. For one, good luck buying rentals in a nice neighborhood unless you actually are a millionaire and most people don't want to live in s**ty neighborhoods if they can afford not to. Also, a lot of people don't want to deal with tenants. My husband has unclogged one too many toilets and drains and replaced doors, sinks, and floors. Vacancies suck and so do bad tenants. But AGAIN, I am not telling OP to go buy apartments and thrive! I'm just saying stop doing what you hate and don't feel guilty about letting go of the Biglaw cash. Find another way to make money and consider non-day job ways to make your money work for you.

Sooo neither you nor your husband are lawyers. Why the f*** are you on TLS?

user has been outed for anon abuse

[Anonymous User]

I only worked at Biglaw as an office clerk during undergrad so I can't give good advice but my 2 years there was enough for me to say no f***king way is it worth being a lawyer here. Biglaw just seems like such a terrible way to make money. When you do the math the hourly rate is pathetic. Biglaw partners make their fortune working their associates to the bone while giving off the illusion that "this life is the dream." All the "perks" are just ways to make sure you have no excuse to ever leave the building. There are just so many better ways to make money with all of the time you spend at Biglaw. I currently work at a small firm at $100k with a 1500 billable hour requirement. I never work on weekends and rarely work past 5pm. I spend my spare time on an export business I started with my sister and bought a multi-family apartment complex with my husband, both of which bring in great income. I guess my point is that Biglaw is not the only way to make good money. If you enjoy it then by all means make yo paper boo boo. But if you hate it (and I don't blame you) then to hell with it. Life is too damn short to spend any moment of it unhappy. I'm turning 30 this year which means I'm going to be dead in 60 years if I'm lucky. So I have maybe 40 good years left before things start to hurt. The people who have responded are much more qualified to give advice but I don't think the "it gets easier" is an approach I would ever take. You can't put a price on a piece of mind.

Just do buy a multi-family apartment complex and start a business on your $100k salary at age 30.

Sincerely,
Person With A Lot of Money Telling You Not to Worry About Money

This is the problem. People think the only way to make money is to work like a horse for someone else. Very few people consider putting their money to work for them. I did not come from a background of money. Parents never gave me a dime. I've worked since I was 15 and have always been very frugal. Now my husband makes $150k a year so that definitely helps but even his job is super chill. He overseas a portfolio of commercial properties for some extraordinarily wealthy family. His hours are 9-5pm. Never works weekends or nights. You should take the time to look at how much duplexes, triplexes, and larger complexes actually cost. Instead of buying a nice house we put a sizable down payment on 6 units (in a not so great neighborhood) and negotiated with the seller to carry the note. Our tenants pay for the mortgage and we get a cash flow. We saved THAT money (and a chunk of our income) for another down payment to buy our first real home, albeit a small home (should have bought more units but we started having babies). We live very modestly. No credit card debt, no car loans, and our mortgage payment is less than 20% of our income. Even our phones are prepaid (f**K AT&T they just rob you). Virtually all of our money is put to work. My husband avidly invests in stocks and I dump money into my export business, which I started for only $4,000. Why work so hard making someone else rich while you just live in misery. A Biglaw first year makes $180k a year billing anywhere from 200-300 hours a month. At 200 hours a month, that's $75 per hour. Meanwhile the partners are billing you out $500 per hour. That's a sweet return on their investment. Why not reallocate your time and money for yourself instead of others. You don't need to be rich to do it. You just need to do a lot of homework and be OK with living way below your means.

Your parents "never gave you a dime" but you graduated law school and bought six apartments like a few years later?

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

First of all, my message to OP is not "buy rental income" and "start a business" and everything will be sweet. My message is that there are literally thousands of ways to make money. For the most part the overall message of TLS is Biglaw or bust and for most people this is true. But for some it is a wrong decision and then they feel trapped. They did everything the "right way" but why aren't they happy with their career? A lot of people become financially successful doing a million other things aside from being a lawyer. In fact, some of the best business people are former lawyers. You can call bullshit all you want. Never once did I say I graduated law school and POOF became a successful landlord. My husband and I have been married for 10 years and we both always worked. We lived in a studio apartment and saved our pennies to have enough to buy a house. But when we decided to take that leap we said, HEY why not save a little more and get units instead? No one thinks it's strange that a couple buys a house but everyone thinks you have to be a millionaire to buy rentals. And this is only because MOST people buy rentals as investment property AFTER they already have a house. We went the opposite direction, which turned out to be a better investment. Getting a seller to carry a note isn't as hard as it sounds, especially when they know the property itself will generate income. A lot of sellers don't want to pay capital gains on investment property and don't have any interest in a 1031 exchange. Entering into a promissory note with a buyer who has skin in the game is appealing for them because 1) they can spread out their capital gains, 2) they now have a sweet monthly income without dealing with the headaches of being a landlord, and 3) if the buyer doesn't pay they will foreclose and get their property back. This is not always the best decision for people for a number of reasons. For one, good luck buying rentals in a nice neighborhood unless you actually are a millionaire and most people don't want to live in s**ty neighborhoods if they can afford not to. Also, a lot of people don't want to deal with tenants. My husband has unclogged one too many toilets and drains and replaced doors, sinks, and floors. Vacancies suck and so do bad tenants. But AGAIN, I am not telling OP to go buy apartments and thrive! I'm just saying stop doing what you hate and don't feel guilty about letting go of the Biglaw cash. Find another way to make money and consider non-day job ways to make your money work for you.

Sooo neither you nor your husband are lawyers. Why the f*** are you on TLS?

I am a lawyer.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

First of all, my message to OP is not "buy rental income" and "start a business" and everything will be sweet. My message is that there are literally thousands of ways to make money. For the most part the overall message of TLS is Biglaw or bust and for most people this is true. But for some it is a wrong decision and then they feel trapped. They did everything the "right way" but why aren't they happy with their career? A lot of people become financially successful doing a million other things aside from being a lawyer. In fact, some of the best business people are former lawyers. You can call bullshit all you want. Never once did I say I graduated law school and POOF became a successful landlord. My husband and I have been married for 10 years and we both always worked. We lived in a studio apartment and saved our pennies to have enough to buy a house. But when we decided to take that leap we said, HEY why not save a little more and get units instead? No one thinks it's strange that a couple buys a house but everyone thinks you have to be a millionaire to buy rentals. And this is only because MOST people buy rentals as investment property AFTER they already have a house. We went the opposite direction, which turned out to be a better investment. Getting a seller to carry a note isn't as hard as it sounds, especially when they know the property itself will generate income. A lot of sellers don't want to pay capital gains on investment property and don't have any interest in a 1031 exchange. Entering into a promissory note with a buyer who has skin in the game is appealing for them because 1) they can spread out their capital gains, 2) they now have a sweet monthly income without dealing with the headaches of being a landlord, and 3) if the buyer doesn't pay they will foreclose and get their property back. This is not always the best decision for people for a number of reasons. For one, good luck buying rentals in a nice neighborhood unless you actually are a millionaire and most people don't want to live in s**ty neighborhoods if they can afford not to. Also, a lot of people don't want to deal with tenants. My husband has unclogged one too many toilets and drains and replaced doors, sinks, and floors. Vacancies suck and so do bad tenants. But AGAIN, I am not telling OP to go buy apartments and thrive! I'm just saying stop doing what you hate and don't feel guilty about letting go of the Biglaw cash. Find another way to make money and consider non-day job ways to make your money work for you.

Let me try to ask this in a clearer way.

Where did you get the hundreds of thousands of dollars, at minimum, that college, law school, and six apartments cost?

[Anonymous User]

Something doesn't add up here. Does your husband have money? I want to give you an opportunity to do the math before I call bullshit.

First of all, my message to OP is not "buy rental income" and "start a business" and everything will be sweet. My message is that there are literally thousands of ways to make money. For the most part the overall message of TLS is Biglaw or bust and for most people this is true. But for some it is a wrong decision and then they feel trapped. They did everything the "right way" but why aren't they happy with their career? A lot of people become financially successful doing a million other things aside from being a lawyer. In fact, some of the best business people are former lawyers. You can call bullshit all you want. Never once did I say I graduated law school and POOF became a successful landlord. My husband and I have been married for 10 years and we both always worked. We lived in a studio apartment and saved our pennies to have enough to buy a house. But when we decided to take that leap we said, HEY why not save a little more and get units instead? No one thinks it's strange that a couple buys a house but everyone thinks you have to be a millionaire to buy rentals. And this is only because MOST people buy rentals as investment property AFTER they already have a house. We went the opposite direction, which turned out to be a better investment. Getting a seller to carry a note isn't as hard as it sounds, especially when they know the property itself will generate income. A lot of sellers don't want to pay capital gains on investment property and don't have any interest in a 1031 exchange. Entering into a promissory note with a buyer who has skin in the game is appealing for them because 1) they can spread out their capital gains, 2) they now have a sweet monthly income without dealing with the headaches of being a landlord, and 3) if the buyer doesn't pay they will foreclose and get their property back. This is not always the best decision for people for a number of reasons. For one, good luck buying rentals in a nice neighborhood unless you actually are a millionaire and most people don't want to live in s**ty neighborhoods if they can afford not to. Also, a lot of people don't want to deal with tenants. My husband has unclogged one too many toilets and drains and replaced doors, sinks, and floors. Vacancies suck and so do bad tenants. But AGAIN, I am not telling OP to go buy apartments and thrive! I'm just saying stop doing what you hate and don't feel guilty about letting go of the Biglaw cash. Find another way to make money and consider non-day job ways to make your money work for you.

Let me try to ask this in a clearer way.

Where did you get the hundreds of thousands of dollars, at minimum, that college, law school, and six apartments cost?

I went to a JC for 2 years and transferred with a full scholarship. So no cost for college. Husband already graduated from college when I met him and his parents took care of his college tuition. Husband always had a good job and I had decent jobs through college. My job after I graduated college in 2009 paid very well but it was a TERRIBLE job. Instead of buying a house, we bought 6 units for $600k with a 20% down in 2010. Down was a combination of my husband's savings, my savings, and our own savings. Bought our house the summer of 2013, literally right before home prices soared (we got lucky). Graduated law school with $160k in debt in 2014 (only took out loans for tuition). We paid $40k towards loans since I graduated. Refinanced house to a lower interest rate in early 2015 and took out $30k in equity to get loan down to $90k. Refinanced student loan to low interest rate. We got lucky with our real estate timing. Had some money when no one could get loans. Real estate market has exploded since 2010. Although I am almost positive we are looking at another bubble.

[PeanutsNJam]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

[Anonymous User]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

I don't disagree that this path is not going to be available for just anyone. I commented earlier that I do not even really recommend being a landlord. However, I do not have any special units; I just do single family rentals from the normal stuff you can find for sale, and my income (without rentals) is less than half that. Cumulatively my rentals are worth more than that. I don't have anything special other than a bit of luck on timing and a lot of persistence. It seems like you guys are picking apart this one story for some reason. Her (?) point really isn't go buy rentals, rather, that there are things you can do on the side, that you like doing, to make the golden handcuffs drop off which would allow you to take other jobs that don't make you hate life.