Hating Biglaw - Please Help Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all. I am 4 months into biglaw at a V10 and pretty much miserable. Even though I'd like to think I knew what I was getting into it has been worse than I expected. And, I haven't even worked an unreasonable amount - far less than some of my peers, just under 200 billable hours each month.

It is probably just me and my personality. I think I am just a bad fit for this type of environment - I like my colleagues a lot (for the most part) and some of the work is interesting. But I have a family I'm not spending much time with and deeply miss having some semblance of balance in my life. I loved law school but practice is obviously nothing like that.

Does anyone have any advice for me on escaping or improving my experience? I figured I can't be the only one who does or has felt this way.

I know I am light on details here but anything would be appreciated. I went to a TTT school but did very well and I had a few years of work experience in marketing before law school.

Thanks in advance.

[glitched]

Are you in corporate? Maybe switch to litigation - much more predictable hours and the work is, in the larger context, more similar to what we did in law school.

[Anonymous User]

Are you in corporate? Maybe switch to litigation - much more predictable hours and the work is, in the larger context, more similar to what we did in law school.

OP here - yes I am in corporate. I've had a few people suggest the switch to lit. I'm considering it and maybe I have nothing to lose.

[smokeylarue]

Working 200 billing hours a month for 4 months in a row is actually not that normal (at least my experience), perhaps you're feeling just a little burnt out. Might just need one of those 150 hour months to recharge a little...

[Lincoln]

I'm in lit and an admitted workaholic, so take the below with a grain of salt.

IMO, billing 200 hrs per month shouldn't mean you are "not spending much time with" family and lacking "some semblance of balance in [your] life." If you are working 20 days per month, i.e., zero hours on the weekends, you are still "only" billing 10 hours a day. Although that probably means some 12-hr days, weekends off is pretty much all you can ask for -- and more than you usually get -- in BigLaw. Now, if you are staying late and working weekends, that could have at least the following two reasons: (1) You may be working a lot compared to your billables; (2) You could be getting assignments at weird hours such that maybe you didn't bill anything 2-5 pm but then the partner calls at 5 and gives you five hours of work.

The good news is that both of the above tends to get better with time. With respect to (1), you become more efficient as you get more senior. You get better at anticipating what the partners want, at doing things quickly, at minimizing time spent on unimportant tasks. With respect to (2), that shit sucks, and it happens (with some partners/sr associate more than with others), but as you get more senior you should feel more comfortable pushing back and setting boundaries, and you get better at evaluating how long things take, what to delegate, etc.

So don't bail on BigLaw quite yet. For me it took 18 months before I really got comfortable and started liking my job. Hopefully things will get better for you, too.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in lit and an admitted workaholic, so take the below with a grain of salt.

IMO, billing 200 hrs per month shouldn't mean you are "not spending much time with" family and lacking "some semblance of balance in [your] life." If you are working 20 days per month, i.e., zero hours on the weekends, you are still "only" billing 10 hours a day. Although that probably means some 12-hr days, weekends off is pretty much all you can ask for -- and more than you usually get -- in BigLaw. Now, if you are staying late and working weekends, that could have at least the following two reasons: (1) You may be working a lot compared to your billables; (2) You could be getting assignments at weird hours such that maybe you didn't bill anything 2-5 pm but then the partner calls at 5 and gives you five hours of work.

The good news is that both of the above tends to get better with time. With respect to (1), you become more efficient as you get more senior. You get better at anticipating what the partners want, at doing things quickly, at minimizing time spent on unimportant tasks. With respect to (2), that shit sucks, and it happens (with some partners/sr associate more than with others), but as you get more senior you should feel more comfortable pushing back and setting boundaries, and you get better at evaluating how long things take, what to delegate, etc.

So don't bail on BigLaw quite yet. For me it took 18 months before I really got comfortable and started liking my job. Hopefully things will get better for you, too.

OP here - thanks, that is good to hear that it could improve. I am definitely not very efficient right now so that must be part of it. I also worked a lot during the holidays which I think made me a little bitter about the experience generally.

But, given how stressed out even a near-200 hour month has made me, I am worried its just me. I also live in fear of even crazier months - other juniors (2nd years though) in my group have been close to 300 recently.

In any case thanks for offering a positive perspective.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

People make this thread every week and I'm not clear why.

Are you here in the hopes that someone will tell you it gets better? It probably won't.

Do you want someone to tell you it's unhealthy or weird to want to spend more time with your family and have a generally more well-rounded life when you bill 200 hours a month? It's not.

Advice for escaping? Find another job and then walk out the door.

[TLSModBot]

Based on his general background in the post above, I'd almost think I was the OP if I didn't know better

I am also pretty new to Biglaw, and I can not do main M&A without hating my life, but love some of the specialist work surrounding it, and am really enjoying the rhythm thus far. If there's any way you can experiment with something like finance, tax, or antitrust, it might be more to your liking.

[Npret]

I'm in lit and an admitted workaholic, so take the below with a grain of salt.

IMO, billing 200 hrs per month shouldn't mean you are "not spending much time with" family and lacking "some semblance of balance in [your] life." If you are working 20 days per month, i.e., zero hours on the weekends, you are still "only" billing 10 hours a day. Although that probably means some 12-hr days, weekends off is pretty much all you can ask for -- and more than you usually get -- in BigLaw. Now, if you are staying late and working weekends, that could have at least the following two reasons: (1) You may be working a lot compared to your billables; (2) You could be getting assignments at weird hours such that maybe you didn't bill anything 2-5 pm but then the partner calls at 5 and gives you five hours of work.

The good news is that both of the above tends to get better with time. With respect to (1), you become more efficient as you get more senior. You get better at anticipating what the partners want, at doing things quickly, at minimizing time spent on unimportant tasks. With respect to (2), that shit sucks, and it happens (with some partners/sr associate more than with others), but as you get more senior you should feel more comfortable pushing back and setting boundaries, and you get better at evaluating how long things take, what to delegate, etc.

So don't bail on BigLaw quite yet. For me it took 18 months before I really got comfortable and started liking my job. Hopefully things will get better for you, too.

OP here - thanks, that is good to hear that it could improve. I am definitely not very efficient right now so that must be part of it. I also worked a lot during the holidays which I think made me a little bitter about the experience generally.

But, given how stressed out even a near-200 hour month has made me, I am worried its just me. I also live in fear of even crazier months - other juniors (2nd years though) in my group have been close to 300 recently.

In any case thanks for offering a positive perspective.

What gets better for a workaholic may not be the same for you. You should be getting more efficient all the time.

Lit is very different from corporate. Maybe you could do some bankruptcy? Do people switch groups like that at your firm? I don't know what reason you could have to move unless you can sell that you thought you would love corporate. I dont know how that will fly at your firm.

[Anonymous User]

Are you in corporate? Maybe switch to litigation - much more predictable hours and the work is, in the larger context, more similar to what we did in law school.

Also lit, and I love it. It's fast-paced, and there's not much sitting around waiting for the client to review your work and request changes.

Generally, though, starting out is the toughest. GIve it some time and it will get better.

[Npret]

OP please tell us if you worked summers roofing in the heat. I've heard here a couple of times that if you can do that job you can do anything- even though there is zero skill overlap.

I hope it gets better for you OP but you may just join the legion of associates who figure out how to do the minimum possible and leave in 2 years or so. No shame in that.

Biglaw isn't for everyone. Good news is you don't have to stay forever.

[dixiecupdrinking]

It does get better. The first six to nine months were the hardest for me.

On the other hand, part of why it gets better is because you adapt to the notion that you should be eating dinner in the office 4 nights a week and available at all times. And instead of angry or disappointed that you can't go to happy hour or socialize on a weekday (or, I assume, see your kids at night, if you have them), you become merely perplexed by the idea that anyone does these things. So, "it gets better" is relative.

[whysooseriousbiglaw]

It does get better. The first six to nine months were the hardest for me.

On the other hand, part of why it gets better is because you adapt to the notion that you should be eating dinner in the office 4 nights a week and available at all times. And instead of angry or disappointed that you can't go to happy hour or socialize on a weekday (or, I assume, see your kids at night, if you have them), you become merely perplexed by the idea that anyone does these things. So, "it gets better" is relative.

Sounds about right. In terms of actual workload and responsibility and stress level, it only gets worse imo. At least as a junior nobody expects you to know much.

[umichman]

What city are you in? I know some cities allow you to go home and do work from there whereas Ive heard some liek NYC force you to stay late whether you are doing work or not.

[Anonymous User]

It does get better. The first six to nine months were the hardest for me.

On the other hand, part of why it gets better is because you adapt to the notion that you should be eating dinner in the office 4 nights a week and available at all times. And instead of angry or disappointed that you can't go to happy hour or socialize on a weekday (or, I assume, see your kids at night, if you have them), you become merely perplexed by the idea that anyone does these things. So, "it gets better" is relative.

This is very true. It was only when I resigned myself to making no plans whatsoever that things got better - that I didn't mind billing 16 hours on a Saturday because at least I got to sleep on my own schedule and email traffic died down. But as someone mentioned, once you get more senior there are more expectations and you are more plugged into things, making it harder to have any downtime or truly disconnect on those rare vacations.

It also gets worse once you decide to leave. Really hard to pull a 250 hour month or all nighters when you've mentally checked out, but stuff still has to get done.

[los blancos]

And, I haven't even worked an unreasonable amount - far less than some of my peers, just under 200 billable hours each month.

It is probably just me and my personality.

no, it's because you're normal

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks again for all the helpful replies. I'm not sure I want to get used to it in the way some people have suggested.

I think I just need to find a way out ASAP.

[zot1]

OP please tell us if you worked summers roofing in the heat. I've heard here a couple of times that if you can do that job you can do anything- even though there is zero skill overlap.

[dixiecupdrinking]

OP here. Thanks again for all the helpful replies. I'm not sure I want to get used to it in the way some people have suggested.

I think I just need to find a way out ASAP.

I would recommend it. At the very least, make a note of what you want to get out of the experience. Once you've accomplished that, whether it's experience, money, etc, then try to leave aggressively. Golden handcuffs are real. Your ability to adapt to and justify unhealthy and unpleasant circumstances is real. The job gets better but it doesn't fundamentally improve.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks again for all the helpful replies. I'm not sure I want to get used to it in the way some people have suggested.

I think I just need to find a way out ASAP.

This is normal, I feel this way and I'm a 4th year. It doesn't get better unless you just stop caring about letting partners and senior associates down and doing shitty work (basically, you have to be ready to be fired). Other than the money, working in big law has been a net-negative in terms of overall confidence, management ability, experience, and just believing in myself and my work ethic. I had more confidence as a 25 year old. Get out as soon as possible if you can.

[gp86]

OP here. Thanks again for all the helpful replies. I'm not sure I want to get used to it in the way some people have suggested.

I think I just need to find a way out ASAP.

This is normal, I feel this way and I'm a 4th year. It doesn't get better unless you just stop caring about letting partners and senior associates down and doing shitty work (basically, you have to be ready to be fired). Other than the money, working in big law has been a net-negative in terms of overall confidence, management ability, experience, and just believing in myself and my work ethic. I had more confidence as a 25 year old. Get out as soon as possible if you can.

This is exactly how I feel. After 4 years I feel tired and unnerved and don't have much ambition for anything. I've never felt good in this job, just "not bad", for in the corporate side of things for a junior attorney the only victories are not screwing up.

[Anonymous User]

In the same position as you, OP. I want to leave immediately.

[Phil Brooks]

Did you research anything about the firm culture other than that it's a V10?

[Anonymous User]

4th year v10 NYC corp, just chiming in to echo everyone else's "i want to leave immediately" comments.

if you're trying to stick it out for a bit, there are definitely ways to "hide" and maintain somewhat of a normal life. I try to do really good work ("really good" meaning just being very very detail oriented and responsive and friendly), but I say no to work a lot. My reviews have always been really good, even though they always mention my hours being low (don't care, worth it so far). This is much easier/possible at some firms (i.e., free market firms at big offices) than others, obviously. And obviously won't last long, but its definitely worked for me for a while.

More info re coasting: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... +in+biglaw

[nunumaster]

Did you research anything about the firm culture other than that it's a V10?

It's every big law firm, dude.