Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:58 pm

2014 wrote:Was there anything specific that made you start submitting in-house applications? Do you think that your options would have been meaningfully different if you stuck it out at your then-firm (or another) for any additional time?

Did you do anything particular at a firm to make your more marketable to exit options? Did you try to focus on certain deal structures, sides, sizes, industries, etc. or did you just take whatever was handed to you? In that same vein was the secondment something you actively sought out or did the client just need someone and you were the person who happened to get asked?


Nope -- cold called by a recruiter and I took the call. Went from there.

Didn't do anything special deal-wise at the firms other than try to only work for partners and associates I liked and were human. I did gun for the secondment by taking deals from that client and my name got tossed around. When I met with them, I treated it like I would an interview and got it.

I maybe could've held out for a more senior position with commensurate pay but it was time. If you're going to be at the same place for more than 2 years, you better really love it. Life is short.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do you think your background in m&a helped in your search for an inhouse position? How did your friends in other groups (finance, cap markets etc.) fare?


Definitely. M&A makes you the most well rounded and facile with contracts, which is 90% of the work. Finance is a dead end. Cap markets people can do well but they are prey for PE who tend to not have any need for securities lawyers at a now-private PC.


Any insight as to how a biglaw labor and employment associate may fair for in-house positions?

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do you think your background in m&a helped in your search for an inhouse position? How did your friends in other groups (finance, cap markets etc.) fare?


Definitely. M&A makes you the most well rounded and facile with contracts, which is 90% of the work. Finance is a dead end. Cap markets people can do well but they are prey for PE who tend to not have any need for securities lawyers at a now-private PC.


Any insight as to how a biglaw labor and employment associate may fair for in-house positions?


Not good from what I've seen. Anecdotally, I know two people from Littler who left law and went into HR. L&E makes for a good solo practice from what I hear though.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do you think your background in m&a helped in your search for an inhouse position? How did your friends in other groups (finance, cap markets etc.) fare?


Definitely. M&A makes you the most well rounded and facile with contracts, which is 90% of the work. Finance is a dead end. Cap markets people can do well but they are prey for PE who tend to not have any need for securities lawyers at a now-private PC.



How about someone that is in Asset Management (either Hedge Fund or PE fund)?

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:36 pm

Could you expand on and/or provide an example of how you nail interviews? As in, how do you prepare, is there something specific you say during the interview, etc.?

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:54 pm

T4->T14 transfer. Struck out at OCI. Want to do corporate. What summer job should I gun for to put me in the best position for the crapshoot that is 3L OCI. Thanks.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:44 am

Any information about how the in-house market is for patent folks? Do prospects differ between those who did patent prosecution vs litigation?

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:58 am

How early is too early to lateral to another market? I don't hate my NYC V10, but I think I'd like to be in a different market long term. I've heard 2 years.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:17 am

Any tips for surviving biglaw? Everything I hear is from the people who 1) either want to stay past three or four years or 2) are really good at hiding that they intend to leave soon.

Also, what was your progression in terms of substantive work? What were you doing after your first year and how did you progress into more complex tasks later on?

How much did you bill?

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any information about how the in-house market is for patent folks? Do prospects differ between those who did patent prosecution vs litigation?


Not OP, but the market for patent prosecution is good but competitive. More companies are moving IP functions in-house, but there's still many more people than available positions so you'll be up against strong competitors. I'm in-house now and interviewed for several positions before this, and the interviewers have told me they've received 100+ applications for in-house patent positions.

IP lit side is fewer and far between. IP lit folks just oversee litigation, so fewer of them are needed than on the pros side. And if the company isn't gigantic like Apple or doesn't get sued a lot, then IP lit usually gets handled by general lit person, or by IP pros person.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do you think your background in m&a helped in your search for an inhouse position? How did your friends in other groups (finance, cap markets etc.) fare?


Definitely. M&A makes you the most well rounded and facile with contracts, which is 90% of the work. Finance is a dead end. Cap markets people can do well but they are prey for PE who tend to not have any need for securities lawyers at a now-private PC.



How about someone that is in Asset Management (either Hedge Fund or PE fund)?


From what I've seen, the opportunities for fund formation people are generally limited to larger funds (in major metros) that really have an ongoing need to manage their LPs as smaller funds tend to have lawyers that specialize in that fund's primary investment strategy (securitization, RE, acquisition, etc.).

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Could you expand on and/or provide an example of how you nail interviews? As in, how do you prepare, is there something specific you say during the interview, etc.?


It's all about selling. The only research I do is beforehand what the company does, who the players are in its markets, what are the demand drivers, etc basically stuff that makes good fodder for questions. During the interview, I always try to get the interviewer talking about things on point (i.e., don't bullshit about sports and entertainment-- you can build rapport far more effectively with mirrored body language than common consumer preferences) to elicit some values they're looking for, then I relate stories about past experience that demonstrate those values. Virtually everything you say should be geared towards what skills you bring to them that will make their jobs easier. Talking about Homeland won't do that.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:T4->T14 transfer. Struck out at OCI. Want to do corporate. What summer job should I gun for to put me in the best position for the crapshoot that is 3L OCI. Thanks.


Inhouse somewhere big and corporate, even as an unpaid intern. Knowing how clients work internally and how they filter advice from outside counsel is a decent pitch. Another idea if you're in NYC are the rating agencies. They tend to be less selective and the work experience is easy to spin.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any information about how the in-house market is for patent folks? Do prospects differ between those who did patent prosecution vs litigation?


No clue. Defer to the other poster ITT

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any tips for surviving biglaw? Everything I hear is from the people who 1) either want to stay past three or four years or 2) are really good at hiding that they intend to leave soon.

Also, what was your progression in terms of substantive work? What were you doing after your first year and how did you progress into more complex tasks later on?

How much did you bill?


Honestly just be likeable. The work is easy and boring-- you always have a ton of precedent to compare things to and make comments against. Things don't get interesting until you have to start improvising and there isn't a ton of room for that in biglaw.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to lateral to another market? I don't hate my NYC V10, but I think I'd like to be in a different market long term. I've heard 2 years.


2 years. Less than that and it becomes harder to overcome the flight risk objection. Like everything in life, you have to be able to sell the narrative. If you can basically put the interviewer in your shoes and convince them (without being obvious) that they wouldve made the same decisions you had, bob's your uncle.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby umichman » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to lateral to another market? I don't hate my NYC V10, but I think I'd like to be in a different market long term. I've heard 2 years.


2 years. Less than that and it becomes harder to overcome the flight risk objection. Like everything in life, you have to be able to sell the narrative. If you can basically put the interviewer in your shoes and convince them (without being obvious) that they wouldve made the same decisions you had, bob's your uncle.


What would you say is the ideal time to lateral to another smaller market from NYC in order to give yourself a good chance to start at a more senior position in house??
Last edited by umichman on Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bk1

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby bk1 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(repaid over 250k to date)

You give me hope.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:35 pm

umichman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How early is too early to lateral to another market? I don't hate my NYC V10, but I think I'd like to be in a different market long term. I've heard 2 years.


2 years. Less than that and it becomes harder to overcome the flight risk objection. Like everything in life, you have to be able to sell the narrative. If you can basically put the interviewer in your shoes and convince them (without being obvious) that they wouldve made the same decisions you had, bob's your uncle.


What would you say is the ideal time to lateral to another smaller market from NYC in order to give yourself a good chance to start at a more senior position in house??


Seemed like 6th-7th year was the floor for AGC or higher in more established companies.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:37 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:(repaid over 250k to date)

You give me hope.


Thanks man. It was an incredibly arduous and spiritually taxing process. And 4.5 years out, I'm still negative net worth although just barely. With UG and LS, principal + interest is a little over 305k to date.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:40 pm

OP, thanks for this--super helpful.

-Can you elaborate a bit more on the exit options available after Biglaw M&A? Will be joining the Bay Area market after graduation and not sure if I want to try for partner track or get out of Biglaw. Are we talking corp dev or in-house legal as corporate counsel?

-What are your future aspirations? Do you plan on rising in your current company in-house? Or getting out of law entirely?

-What would you suggest in terms of taking bar classes as a 3L? Good idea or focus on the bar review class? (I'll be taking the CA bar so maybe not as applicable if you took DC/NY)

bk1

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby bk1 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:(repaid over 250k to date)

You give me hope.


Thanks man. It was an incredibly arduous and spiritually taxing process. And 4.5 years out, I'm still negative net worth although just barely. With UG and LS, principal + interest is a little over 305k to date.

That is damn impressive (I can think of maybe one or two biglawyers I know personally who made/make similarly-sized monthly payments, but even they haven't done that for nearly as long as you have). Congrats on getting close to 0.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP, thanks for this--super helpful.

-Can you elaborate a bit more on the exit options available after Biglaw M&A? Will be joining the Bay Area market after graduation and not sure if I want to try for partner track or get out of Biglaw. Are we talking corp dev or in-house legal as corporate counsel?

-What are your future aspirations? Do you plan on rising in your current company in-house? Or getting out of law entirely?

-What would you suggest in terms of taking bar classes as a 3L? Good idea or focus on the bar review class? (I'll be taking the CA bar so maybe not as applicable if you took DC/NY)


Don't go in planning on partnership. Just take it day by day and see if you can even stand it. Most can't. I couldn't. Btw, "Corp dev" tends to refer to internal m&A business side positions, assessing targets and pitching the business cases for them. Not really a legal exit unless you had prior banking experience. "Biz dev" is more of a sales position and a common exit for extroverted corp lawyers, but less focused on distributing the existing product but rather more on selling other companies on partnerships in order to combine products or know-how. Companies can use whatever naming conventions they like, but the above tends to be the market definition. I'm corporate counsel working for a GC and AGC and most biglaw corp refugees take my route.

Future aspirations are entrepreneurship. Just needed the salaried job to escape the shackles of debt and gain some useful experience along the way.

If you're smart you can pass any bar in 3 weeks of cramming. I thought bar study was fun. Just dive into it. Doing the 8 week barbri thing is overkill and will burn you out and make you hate it. Take substantive classes if you want the deeper dive and evolution of case law thing that most professors focus on and you wont get with barbri. I always hated seminars and paper writing.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:53 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:(repaid over 250k to date)

You give me hope.


Thanks man. It was an incredibly arduous and spiritually taxing process. And 4.5 years out, I'm still negative net worth although just barely. With UG and LS, principal + interest is a little over 305k to date.

That is damn impressive (I can think of maybe one or two biglawyers I know personally who made/make similarly-sized monthly payments, but even they haven't done that for nearly as long as you have). Congrats on getting close to 0.


Thanks. I wonder if I should try and monetize the experience. I don't think there's too many people that have crushed 300k in <5 years without an underlying appreciating asset. That HBS guy made a big deal about killing 90k in one year a few years back but he raided his retirement accounts and I don't think he made the sacrifices I did (sharing a 400 sq ft studio a 30 min walk from work, living off seamless budget every single day, etc.)
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Post-Biglaw inhouse attorney, taking Qs

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:57 pm

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