Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

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1styearlateral

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby 1styearlateral » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:52 pm

Anyone know which corp. practice areas have the least and most amount of fire drills? Or is it firm/practice group dependent?

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:59 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.


Lol, I'm glad you're the optimistic sort. As a JD -> IB, I can tell you that however "stressful" finance can be, at least a) we're paid much more, and b) we get to dump shit on the lawyers at 10pm and not vice versa.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which corp. practice areas have the least and most amount of fire drills? Or is it firm/practice group dependent?

Largely dependent on who you work with, but if you do M&A (for example) you aren't doing yourself any favors. I find that my financing deals are almost never a fire drill, so there's that.
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jkpolk

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby jkpolk » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:17 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which corp. practice areas have the least and most amount of fire drills? Or is it firm/practice group dependent?

Largely dependent on who you work with, but if you do M&A (for example) you aren't doing yourself any favors. I find that my financing deals are almost never a fire drill, so there's that.


At least where I am, Corporate specialists largely get their work as a sub component of M&A activity. What will happen is the M&A team will deal with the client, figure out the big deal issues/what the client cares about, and then kick specialized work to different groups (e.g. Lots of IP issues or schedules you kick to IP, important real estate you have RE take a look, deal financing will go to the finance people, etc). What this means is that, as a specialist at a big firm, you'll be on way more deals than an M&A person and you'll largely have less visibility into the ebbs and flows of an individual deal. your fire drills happen as M&A transaction comments are turned and there's a fast deadline, or some agency responded and you need to review/communicate, etc

The more involved your speciality is in a particular deal, the more fire drills you'll have. So the practice with the fewest first drills is going to depend on what kind of clients your firm has. As your practice moves further away from M&A (think like Trusts and Estates or a pure regulatory practice) you'll have fewer fire drills. In addition how firms organize their practice groups varies so it's hard to say definitively x is more chill than y.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby ruski » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:31 pm

jkpolk wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which corp. practice areas have the least and most amount of fire drills? Or is it firm/practice group dependent?

Largely dependent on who you work with, but if you do M&A (for example) you aren't doing yourself any favors. I find that my financing deals are almost never a fire drill, so there's that.


At least where I am, Corporate specialists largely get their work as a sub component of M&A activity. What will happen is the M&A team will deal with the client, figure out the big deal issues/what the client cares about, and then kick specialized work to different groups (e.g. Lots of IP issues or schedules you kick to IP, important real estate you have RE take a look, deal financing will go to the finance people, etc). What this means is that, as a specialist at a big firm, you'll be on way more deals than an M&A person and you'll largely have less visibility into the ebbs and flows of an individual deal. your fire drills happen as M&A transaction comments are turned and there's a fast deadline, or some agency responded and you need to review/communicate, etc

The more involved your speciality is in a particular deal, the more fire drills you'll have. So the practice with the fewest first drills is going to depend on what kind of clients your firm has. As your practice moves further away from M&A (think like Trusts and Estates or a pure regulatory practice) you'll have fewer fire drills. In addition how firms organize their practice groups varies so it's hard to say definitively x is more chill than y.


this is not entirely true. there are several corporate specialty groups that have nothing to do with M&A. derivatives comes to mind, and I have heard from more than one source it is one of the more lifestyle groups (relatively speaking of course). also there are several finance practices that are not M&A/acquisition dependent, and thus usually better lifestyle as well.

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jkpolk

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby jkpolk » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:05 pm

ruski wrote:
jkpolk wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which corp. practice areas have the least and most amount of fire drills? Or is it firm/practice group dependent?

Largely dependent on who you work with, but if you do M&A (for example) you aren't doing yourself any favors. I find that my financing deals are almost never a fire drill, so there's that.


At least where I am, Corporate specialists largely get their work as a sub component of M&A activity. What will happen is the M&A team will deal with the client, figure out the big deal issues/what the client cares about, and then kick specialized work to different groups (e.g. Lots of IP issues or schedules you kick to IP, important real estate you have RE take a look, deal financing will go to the finance people, etc). What this means is that, as a specialist at a big firm, you'll be on way more deals than an M&A person and you'll largely have less visibility into the ebbs and flows of an individual deal. your fire drills happen as M&A transaction comments are turned and there's a fast deadline, or some agency responded and you need to review/communicate, etc

The more involved your speciality is in a particular deal, the more fire drills you'll have. So the practice with the fewest first drills is going to depend on what kind of clients your firm has. As your practice moves further away from M&A (think like Trusts and Estates or a pure regulatory practice) you'll have fewer fire drills. In addition how firms organize their practice groups varies so it's hard to say definitively x is more chill than y.


this is not entirely true. there are several corporate specialty groups that have nothing to do with M&A. derivatives comes to mind, and I have heard from more than one source it is one of the more lifestyle groups (relatively speaking of course). also there are several finance practices that are not M&A/acquisition dependent, and thus usually better lifestyle as well.


Yes, as practices get further from M&A fire drills are less frequent. How firms structure practices is different at different places but since M&A is where the money is it's going to be difficult for a junior in big law to be super removed from M&A. For example, most places don't have a "derivatives" group. What that means for a junior who works on derivatives is that you'll also likely work on bond offerings, secondary offerings, etc which often are bound up with M&A. At smaller shops, boutiques, etc. this does not hold.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby JenDarby » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:09 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.

In-house at a bank was the best and least stressful job I've ever had. Nearly all of my old co-workers would agree, which is why most of them have been there close to or over 10 years. I left after 3 because I hated NYC and needed to relocate for personal reasons, but I loved that job so much that I've considered moving back and taking up an offer to return.

The capital markets/structured products work that I did wasn't often challenging, but it was at least engaging. Pay, hours, atmosphere, benefits, my colleagues, etc were all great.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:16 pm

just started as an M&A/VC/PEG associate at a secondary market of a V50 firm. So far it's not bad, but i'm cautious about the job. I came from doing M&A/VC/PEG on the IBank and consulting side so that's what i'm used to. We'll see if i like this or if i flip back to finance.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:17 pm

jkpolk wrote:
Danger Zone wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which corp. practice areas have the least and most amount of fire drills? Or is it firm/practice group dependent?

Largely dependent on who you work with, but if you do M&A (for example) you aren't doing yourself any favors. I find that my financing deals are almost never a fire drill, so there's that.


At least where I am, Corporate specialists largely get their work as a sub component of M&A activity. What will happen is the M&A team will deal with the client, figure out the big deal issues/what the client cares about, and then kick specialized work to different groups (e.g. Lots of IP issues or schedules you kick to IP, important real estate you have RE take a look, deal financing will go to the finance people, etc). What this means is that, as a specialist at a big firm, you'll be on way more deals than an M&A person and you'll largely have less visibility into the ebbs and flows of an individual deal. your fire drills happen as M&A transaction comments are turned and there's a fast deadline, or some agency responded and you need to review/communicate, etc

The more involved your speciality is in a particular deal, the more fire drills you'll have. So the practice with the fewest first drills is going to depend on what kind of clients your firm has. As your practice moves further away from M&A (think like Trusts and Estates or a pure regulatory practice) you'll have fewer fire drills. In addition how firms organize their practice groups varies so it's hard to say definitively x is more chill than y.

I'm not gonna get more specific than this but this is very different from my firm.
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WhiteCollarBlueShirt

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:53 pm

JenDarby wrote:In-house at a bank was the best and least stressful job I've ever had. Nearly all of my old co-workers would agree, which is why most of them have been there close to or over 10 years. I left after 3 because I hated NYC and needed to relocate for personal reasons, but I loved that job so much that I've considered moving back and taking up an offer to return.

The capital markets/structured products work that I did wasn't often challenging, but it was at least engaging. Pay, hours, atmosphere, benefits, my colleagues, etc were all great.


Off-topic Q to you, but any specific reasons for the bank vs. fund preference? Is it mostly related to culture/size and there being less stress at a large public company?

1styearlateral

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby 1styearlateral » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:20 am

JenDarby wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.

In-house at a bank was the best and least stressful job I've ever had. Nearly all of my old co-workers would agree, which is why most of them have been there close to or over 10 years. I left after 3 because I hated NYC and needed to relocate for personal reasons, but I loved that job so much that I've considered moving back and taking up an offer to return.

The capital markets/structured products work that I did wasn't often challenging, but it was at least engaging. Pay, hours, atmosphere, benefits, my colleagues, etc were all great.

Good to hear that you enjoyed the finance world. My IB friends work like dogs, but as someone mentioned, the pay is great and the career trajectory is much better than in law (at least in the long run). I know of at least one friend who is in-house at a global investment company and he definitely works more than me, and I get the feeling his job is pretty stressful.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby JenDarby » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:40 am

WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:
JenDarby wrote:In-house at a bank was the best and least stressful job I've ever had. Nearly all of my old co-workers would agree, which is why most of them have been there close to or over 10 years. I left after 3 because I hated NYC and needed to relocate for personal reasons, but I loved that job so much that I've considered moving back and taking up an offer to return.

The capital markets/structured products work that I did wasn't often challenging, but it was at least engaging. Pay, hours, atmosphere, benefits, my colleagues, etc were all great.


Off-topic Q to you, but any specific reasons for the bank vs. fund preference? Is it mostly related to culture/size and there being less stress at a large public company?

It's mostly culture and size. Bureaucracy has its ups and downs, but at least it generally creates a predictable structure/expectations. Everything at my fund is at the whim of the the managing partners. The main upside to the fund job is earning/equity potential. There wasn't much growth potential at the large investment bank I was at, and while salaries were very good, they were fairly flat in the long term.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:00 am

JenDarby wrote:.


Thanks, I really appreciate the reply! That's pretty much what I thought, but good to hear it from someone with experience in-house on BOTH SIDES. (I'm an ex-NYC mid-level looking for an exit before getting trapped as an of counsel or non-equity partner, but I don't want to leave my new small market, so options are limited.)

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:18 pm

I enjoy it so far. I think the biggest drawback is simply the hours. If this it were a 9 to 6 job im sure more associates would be happy and ok with the substance of the job.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I enjoy it so far. I think the biggest drawback is simply the hours. If this it were a 9 to 6 job im sure more associates would be happy and ok with the substance of the job.

Eh it's pretty mind numbing shit. I'm sure it gets better as you get higher up the food chain but right now it sucks.
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby mvp99 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Canf edit this

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:29 am

I'm in capital markets. Hated it as a first year because it was tedious and we seemed to add no value. Now as a mid-level my respect for the work hasn't changed (I still believe it is tedious and pointless), but my tolerance for it has. It's a lot less stressful now that I know what's going on, can run my own deals, and have little to no partner involvement (unless I have questions). Not sure if this is true in other capital markets practices, but at my firm most of our deals have detailed schedules. I still have some late nights and the occasional all-nighter, but I almost always know in advance when a bad day is coming.

I don't really get any satisfaction from completing a deal or doing an assignment well. I don't dislike my clients, but neither do I feel any obligation to them or interest in their problems. This job is pushing paper, and I've accepted that. Once I confirmed that this is just about the money and only for a short period of time to achieve financial independence, and once I had autonomy in my work, I came to kind of enjoy the job and all its perks.

There is a senior associate in our office who is really into the work and has gotten depressed lately as he is beginning to see that he's not going to be made partner/of counsel. Since I'm quitting in a few months, I tried to encourage him by expressing my belief that this job isn't worth caring so much about and there are more important things in life worthy of his attention.

He did not take kindly to my sentiments. He really cares about the clients, wants to work every weekend and holiday for them, wants to master the intricacies of indentures, and is proud of his growing body of legal knowledge and market practices. I cannot identify with any of his sentiments. But he's the kind of guy that is happy in biglaw.

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Eldon Tyrell

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Eldon Tyrell » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm in capital markets. Hated it as a first year because it was tedious and we seemed to add no value. Now as a mid-level my respect for the work hasn't changed (I still believe it is tedious and pointless), but my tolerance for it has. It's a lot less stressful now that I know what's going on, can run my own deals, and have little to no partner involvement (unless I have questions). Not sure if this is true in other capital markets practices, but at my firm most of our deals have detailed schedules. I still have some late nights and the occasional all-nighter, but I almost always know in advance when a bad day is coming.

I don't really get any satisfaction from completing a deal or doing an assignment well. I don't dislike my clients, but neither do I feel any obligation to them or interest in their problems. This job is pushing paper, and I've accepted that. Once I confirmed that this is just about the money and only for a short period of time to achieve financial independence, and once I had autonomy in my work, I came to kind of enjoy the job and all its perks.

There is a senior associate in our office who is really into the work and has gotten depressed lately as he is beginning to see that he's not going to be made partner/of counsel. Since I'm quitting in a few months, I tried to encourage him by expressing my belief that this job isn't worth caring so much about and there are more important things in life worthy of his attention.

He did not take kindly to my sentiments. He really cares about the clients, wants to work every weekend and holiday for them, wants to master the intricacies of indentures, and is proud of his growing body of legal knowledge and market practices. I cannot identify with any of his sentiments. But he's the kind of guy that is happy in biglaw.


How much longer are you gonna stay? What's your plan for after you leave?

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:18 am

I'm gonna stay one more year, but may MAY stretch it to two years if we are slow. I'm interested in starting some social ventures, but want to feel financially secure before I do that.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby Danger Zone » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:48 am

Every time I see this thread title I crack up
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby BayCat24 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.


Lol, I'm glad you're the optimistic sort. As a JD -> IB, I can tell you that however "stressful" finance can be, at least a) we're paid much more, and b) we get to dump shit on the lawyers at 10pm and not vice versa.


What is the pay difference/difference in career earning potential in general terms?

1styearlateral

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:16 pm

BayCat24 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.


Lol, I'm glad you're the optimistic sort. As a JD -> IB, I can tell you that however "stressful" finance can be, at least a) we're paid much more, and b) we get to dump shit on the lawyers at 10pm and not vice versa.


What is the pay difference/difference in career earning potential in general terms?

The payoff in IB is way more than most partners in biglaw. And once you are senior enough, you don't have nearly as much work on your plate (and you don't need to generate business). But I would say even less people make it in the IB world than people make partner in the legal world. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm in capital markets. Hated it as a first year because it was tedious and we seemed to add no value. Now as a mid-level my respect for the work hasn't changed (I still believe it is tedious and pointless), but my tolerance for it has. It's a lot less stressful now that I know what's going on, can run my own deals, and have little to no partner involvement (unless I have questions). Not sure if this is true in other capital markets practices, but at my firm most of our deals have detailed schedules. I still have some late nights and the occasional all-nighter, but I almost always know in advance when a bad day is coming.

I don't really get any satisfaction from completing a deal or doing an assignment well. I don't dislike my clients, but neither do I feel any obligation to them or interest in their problems. This job is pushing paper, and I've accepted that. Once I confirmed that this is just about the money and only for a short period of time to achieve financial independence, and once I had autonomy in my work, I came to kind of enjoy the job and all its perks.

There is a senior associate in our office who is really into the work and has gotten depressed lately as he is beginning to see that he's not going to be made partner/of counsel. Since I'm quitting in a few months, I tried to encourage him by expressing my belief that this job isn't worth caring so much about and there are more important things in life worthy of his attention.

He did not take kindly to my sentiments. He really cares about the clients, wants to work every weekend and holiday for them, wants to master the intricacies of indentures, and is proud of his growing body of legal knowledge and market practices. I cannot identify with any of his sentiments. But he's the kind of guy that is happy in biglaw.


This is the best summary I have seen in a while. It's a live to work vs. work to live sentiment that is made particularly evident by the fact that we are pushing forward other peoples' work. With the exception of Wachtell and a handful of other place, the only benefit to completing the work is billing hours and keeping the client happy, so that we can bill more hours--I definitely agree that it is hard to find satisfaction in that, but some sick people definitely do and power to them.

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Re: Passionate or happy about Corporate Law?

Postby BayCat24 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:36 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
BayCat24 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, in NYC, most high paying jobs are going to be terrible, not just law. Consulting, banking, even in-house at banks, are all pretty soul sucking. Seems like NYC is a different level when it comes to people attracted to these jobs (meaning, they are crazy people who care about little other than money).

This is true, for the most part. In NYC, you can't get paid like we do without the accompanying stress. The only difference between me and my IB/finance friends is that I have my own office and assistant. We all have long hours and immense stress.


Lol, I'm glad you're the optimistic sort. As a JD -> IB, I can tell you that however "stressful" finance can be, at least a) we're paid much more, and b) we get to dump shit on the lawyers at 10pm and not vice versa.


What is the pay difference/difference in career earning potential in general terms?

The payoff in IB is way more than most partners in biglaw. And once you are senior enough, you don't have nearly as much work on your plate (and you don't need to generate business). But I would say even less people make it in the IB world than people make partner in the legal world. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


I am more interested in knowing the more common career trajectory - that is, lets assume neither the lawyer nor the I-banker makes partner/MD in this comparison.



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