Hiring Freezes??

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globetrotter659

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby globetrotter659 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:15 pm

Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:Honors Programs should be ok. The guidance that was released exempted PMF and Pathways. Honors programs are essentially the same thing. I do know that a few agencies have delayed making offers but I haven't heard about rescinding HP offers.


This isn't completely accurate.The recent graduate program of PMF is not exempt.

The reason Pathways and the other PMF programs are exempt is because employment is provisional with no guarantee of conversion into a permanent job.

https://www.pmf.gov/media/100879/pmfpo- ... -final.pdf


Right and the PMF program (not the Recent Graduates Program) is most comparable to Attorney HPs. My point still stands, if you have an HP offer then you should be ok. I have heard of agencies reducing the size of their Hp classes or delaying offers but no rescinding of offers. I'm a current Honors Attorney. The caveat being that nothing is for certain anymore.


Thanks for this.
So why do you think Honors wasn't included along with the PMF and Pathways exemptions in the guidance?


Attorney hiring in the federal government is weird. Not all attorney positions go through OPM.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:19 pm

MrT wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think most people here are concerned with the permanent postgrad honors positions, though.

Aren't all HP positions technically probationary and thus term roles?

As I understand it, some are expressly term positions, and some are expressly permanent, but even a new permanent federal employee goes through a probationary period. I can't swear to that for everyone, but that's what I've seen. And mostly I was responding to the idea that people in summer programs were fine - I think most postgrad HP folks didn't do summer honors programs.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Npret » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:43 pm

globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:Honors Programs should be ok. The guidance that was released exempted PMF and Pathways. Honors programs are essentially the same thing. I do know that a few agencies have delayed making offers but I haven't heard about rescinding HP offers.


This isn't completely accurate.The recent graduate program of PMF is not exempt.

The reason Pathways and the other PMF programs are exempt is because employment is provisional with no guarantee of conversion into a permanent job.

https://www.pmf.gov/media/100879/pmfpo- ... -final.pdf


Right and the PMF program (not the Recent Graduates Program) is most comparable to Attorney HPs. My point still stands, if you have an HP offer then you should be ok. I have heard of agencies reducing the size of their Hp classes or delaying offers but no rescinding of offers. I'm a current Honors Attorney. The caveat being that nothing is for certain anymore.


Thanks for this.
So why do you think Honors wasn't included along with the PMF and Pathways exemptions in the guidance?


Attorney hiring in the federal government is weird. Not all attorney positions go through OPM.

Thanks. It's a bit of a nightmare trying to figure it out from the outside.

dizzygonzo

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby dizzygonzo » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:12 pm

Hello. I've followed the prior discussions, but I'm in a unique situation. I was offered a position as an "Honors Attorney" for the Civilian Board of Contract Appeals (an Article I forum within the GSA). I have since received a letter telling me that they "cannot confirm" my September start date due to uncertainty caused by a possible cut in appropriations and the freeze. The position is a temporary, 14-month position. However, CBCA has only had an honors program for about four years. I was wondering if anyone could help me determine what factors to look into to gain some certainty moving forward. In the meantime, let me know if you hear of any government contracts opportunities in the D.C. area (half joking). Thank you!

rainshowers

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby rainshowers » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(j) “Appointments made under 5 C.F.R. § 213.3102(r) (time limited positions in support of fellowship or professional/industry exchange programs) provided that the total number of individuals employed under this authority does not exceed the number of employees onboard (hired under this authority) on January 22, 2017.”

I know some Honor Programs (the summer portions) are created under this statute/ in accordance with it, and HHS's memo made it as long as the number of those appointed didn't exceed FY 2016. (Page 3, #2) So I think at least those participating in the summer programs will be fine. http://www.raps.org/uploadedFiles/Site_ ... ned%20(002).pdf



I received an Honors Attorney offer and its supposed to be a two year program - can it be considered a fellowship under this statute? Why would it only apply to summer programs?

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:41 am

I was contacted today by my IRS Office of Chief Counsel field office and was told that they had secured whatever permission to honor my Honors Attorney offer they needed. (Was originally scheduled to be late Sep early Oct start period but they indicated there is a chance it might be a sooner start date)

They've contacted me a couple of times since the "freeze" began just to make me aware of what's going on, which was a nice touch I thought considering there are so many questions flowing around about the hiring freeze.

It's gone from a we are not sure how the freeze will impact us yet to basically your offer is good to go. But no, I didn't ask about the rest of the status of the Honors Program with them, I guess I should have but quite frankly I was excited and relieved.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby lapolicia » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:18 am

globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:Honors Programs should be ok. The guidance that was released exempted PMF and Pathways. Honors programs are essentially the same thing. I do know that a few agencies have delayed making offers but I haven't heard about rescinding HP offers.


This isn't completely accurate.The recent graduate program of PMF is not exempt.

The reason Pathways and the other PMF programs are exempt is because employment is provisional with no guarantee of conversion into a permanent job.

https://www.pmf.gov/media/100879/pmfpo- ... -final.pdf


Right and the PMF program (not the Recent Graduates Program) is most comparable to Attorney HPs. My point still stands, if you have an HP offer then you should be ok. I have heard of agencies reducing the size of their Hp classes or delaying offers but no rescinding of offers. I'm a current Honors Attorney. The caveat being that nothing is for certain anymore.


Thanks for this.
So why do you think Honors wasn't included along with the PMF and Pathways exemptions in the guidance?


Attorney hiring in the federal government is weird. Not all attorney positions go through OPM.


The only attorney positions that go through OPM are attorney positions at OPM. There is no centralized hiring of attorneys in the federal government. Each agency hires its own. Sometimes they post the jobs to USAJOBS, sometimes they don't.

Also, at most agencies honors attorney positions are permanent, though there are some exceptions. You have to pass a two year probationary period, but this is the same as any new federal attorney. The probationary period doesn't make your position any less permanent.

PMFs, on the other hand, are two year term positions that used to have guaranteed conversion to permanent positions but as of around 2013 no longer guarantee conversion.

globetrotter659

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby globetrotter659 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:38 am

lapolicia wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:
Npret wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:Honors Programs should be ok. The guidance that was released exempted PMF and Pathways. Honors programs are essentially the same thing. I do know that a few agencies have delayed making offers but I haven't heard about rescinding HP offers.


This isn't completely accurate.The recent graduate program of PMF is not exempt.

The reason Pathways and the other PMF programs are exempt is because employment is provisional with no guarantee of conversion into a permanent job.

https://www.pmf.gov/media/100879/pmfpo- ... -final.pdf


Right and the PMF program (not the Recent Graduates Program) is most comparable to Attorney HPs. My point still stands, if you have an HP offer then you should be ok. I have heard of agencies reducing the size of their Hp classes or delaying offers but no rescinding of offers. I'm a current Honors Attorney. The caveat being that nothing is for certain anymore.


Thanks for this.
So why do you think Honors wasn't included along with the PMF and Pathways exemptions in the guidance?


Attorney hiring in the federal government is weird. Not all attorney positions go through OPM.


The only attorney positions that go through OPM are attorney positions at OPM. There is no centralized hiring of attorneys in the federal government. Each agency hires its own. Sometimes they post the jobs to USAJOBS, sometimes they don't.

Also, at most agencies honors attorney positions are permanent, though there are some exceptions. You have to pass a two year probationary period, but this is the same as any new federal attorney. The probationary period doesn't make your position any less permanent.

PMFs, on the other hand, are two year term positions that used to have guaranteed conversion to permanent positions but as of around 2013 no longer guarantee conversion.


You are right on the OPM point. Although some offices voluntarily follow OPM guidance in hiring attorneys. Similarly, many of these "administrative law" EOs don't apply to independent agencies but these agencies have decided to follow them.

And no, HP positions are technically non-permanent positions even though in practice they have automatic conversion and are akin to the probationary period for all new federal attorneys.

If there are cuts to the HPs, it will be because of budgetary reasons and not the hiring freeze.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:55 am

globetrotter659 wrote:And no, HP positions are technically non-permanent positions even though in practice they have automatic conversion and are akin to the probationary period for all new federal attorneys.

This isn't universally true. Some agencies hire for terms, although expecting to convert the position to a permanent one after the honors period is over, but some agencies (primarily within DOJ) do hire for permanent positions. People who get hired to permanent positions go through the standard new-attorney probationary period.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby FSK » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:00 am

Yeah HP is a bad label, b/c so many HPs are so different, and most of the programs are tiny, where as DOJ is a couple hundred all in all (and even within that there are huge differences)
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

globetrotter659

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby globetrotter659 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:10 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:And no, HP positions are technically non-permanent positions even though in practice they have automatic conversion and are akin to the probationary period for all new federal attorneys.

This isn't universally true. Some agencies hire for terms, although expecting to convert the position to a permanent one after the honors period is over, but some agencies (primarily within DOJ) do hire for permanent positions. People who get hired to permanent positions go through the standard new-attorney probationary period.


Even for the permanent HP positions the paperwork and HR designations are different (although perhaps this is related to the fact that HP attorneys are hired and start before passing the bar?).

The only non-permanent HP programs at major agencies I can think of is DHS (but their HP is tiny) and DOJ's immigration courts.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:36 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Excerpt from OPM Q&A:

"Q9. What about individuals who were offered jobs before January 22, 2017, but who have start dates after February 22, 2017, or who have yet to receive a start date from the agency? Can agencies continue with the appointment of these individuals?

A: in these instances, the agency head should review the position to determine whether the job offer should be revoked, or whether the individual should report for duty on an agreed upon start date. Agency heads should consider merit system principles, essential mission priorities, and current agency resources and funding levels when making determinations about whether to revoke such job offers."

If your agency is not using its discretion to honor their offers, they suck tbh. The guidance definitely allows for honoring all offers as, presumably, they were made based on mission priorities and with regard to funding.

DO NOT QUOTE.


There is no "discretion" or "independence" in any agency right now except for the Fed and the CFPB (for now). Politics Trumps discretion.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There is no "discretion" or "independence" in any agency right now except for the Fed and the CFPB (for now). Politics Trumps discretion.

I think we have to wait and see how this actually shakes out once agency heads are in place and actually addressing day to day operations. There are a lot of agencies out there with very different missions and so it's hard to generalize about how this will play out.

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jess

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby jess » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:57 pm

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Last edited by jess on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

lapolicia

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby lapolicia » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:30 pm

globetrotter659 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
globetrotter659 wrote:And no, HP positions are technically non-permanent positions even though in practice they have automatic conversion and are akin to the probationary period for all new federal attorneys.

This isn't universally true. Some agencies hire for terms, although expecting to convert the position to a permanent one after the honors period is over, but some agencies (primarily within DOJ) do hire for permanent positions. People who get hired to permanent positions go through the standard new-attorney probationary period.


Even for the permanent HP positions the paperwork and HR designations are different (although perhaps this is related to the fact that HP attorneys are hired and start before passing the bar?).

The only non-permanent HP programs at major agencies I can think of is DHS (but their HP is tiny) and DOJ's immigration courts.


They're different in that you usually start in a law clerk position with a two year term (though you never stay in the position the full term) and you stay in that until you pass the bar. Once you pass the bar you are converted into a regular attorney position with no term and a GS-14 career ladder. At least this is how it works at the agencies I'm familiar with and my own agency.

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Lacepiece23

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Lacepiece23 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:49 pm

I haven't read this thread; sorry for my laziness. Can someone tell me whether new AUSO's are still being hired?

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:51 pm

No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.

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Lacepiece23

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Lacepiece23 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Got it. Thanks for that.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby newlawgrad » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Except that a few openings did just get listed, strangely.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:30 pm

newlawgrad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Except that a few openings did just get listed, strangely.


Is there a way to find openings? I don't know anything about this.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby newlawgrad » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
newlawgrad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Except that a few openings did just get listed, strangely.


Is there a way to find openings? I don't know anything about this.


DOJ website (https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/vacancies) and/or USA jobs. Not to be a dick (except, kind of), but if you google "DOJ openings" it is literally the first thing that comes up.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:02 pm

newlawgrad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
newlawgrad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Except that a few openings did just get listed, strangely.


Is there a way to find openings? I don't know anything about this.


DOJ website (https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/vacancies) and/or USA jobs. Not to be a dick (except, kind of), but if you google "DOJ openings" it is literally the first thing that comes up.


Fair enough. I was trying to find it on the AUSA website for my district and was wondering why I didn't see anything.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:34 am

newlawgrad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Except that a few openings did just get listed, strangely.

One of those is for an unpaid SAUSA, and one is for the WD of Louisiana, which had also posted right when the hiring freeze was announced, so I wonder if they got an exemption already. I guess we'll see if more positions open up.

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Re: Hiring Freezes??

Postby newlawgrad » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
newlawgrad wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No, not in the sense of advertising openings to be filled. There are still people with tentative offers from before the freeze to be addressed. Also I'm not aware of Sessions saying anything about this yet. Give it a few more months.


Except that a few openings did just get listed, strangely.

One of those is for an unpaid SAUSA, and one is for the WD of Louisiana, which had also posted right when the hiring freeze was announced, so I wonder if they got an exemption already. I guess we'll see if more positions open up.


True, but also the main justice capital attorney positions. Not AUSA but still.



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