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Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:03 pm
by OMLS48
For those of you that got no offered from a 100% offer firm or somewhere close to it, was it pretty apparent early on that such was the case? Or was it a blindside? Is it pretty easy to see the writing on the wall?

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:29 pm
by RaceJudicata
Don't waste your time thinking about this. Not healthy to chart your own demise 9+ months before a SA even begins.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:25 pm
by TFALAWL
FWIW I almost did not receive an offer, however I was explicitly warned during my mid-summer review and given guidance on how to correct my mistakes. My issue was work-product related though.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:11 pm
by mrscooter
TFALAWL wrote:FWIW I almost did not receive an offer, however I was explicitly warned during my mid-summer review and given guidance on how to correct my mistakes. My issue was work-product related though.


What were the issues with your work product? I have to imagine it must have been pretty serious given the low expectations for summers..

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:13 pm
by Anonymous User
I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:35 pm
by RaceJudicata
Anonymous User wrote:I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.


It seems just as likely that you were misreading the situation the entire summer, and then cracked a joke about a partners balding, and as a result got no offered.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:05 pm
by andythefir
Anonymous User wrote:I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.


My situation was somewhat similar, although I was too fearful to ever take that tack. There were 3 summers, and they told us they might keep 1 at the end of the summer (despite NALP saying they historically had 100% offer rates). Summer coordinators told us that between the 3 of us across all assignments there was a total of 1 bad grade, and I'm pretty sure it was the very first project I did. The project was for a mega partner, one of the most famous attorneys in the state, who may have been the biggest jerk I have ever encountered personally. Other than that, feedback was almost uniformly very positive.

The firm brought on 3 laterals maybe halfway through the summer.

At a social event managing partner's husband gets liquored up and tells me that my law school (ranked in the 20s) is not as good as the local law school where most attorneys in the state attended (ranked in the 70s with a 60% bar passage rate).

Looking back on it, the entire firm was highly dysfunctional. I don't think anybody got an offer, but I certainly didn't. The no-offer was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:08 pm
by lavarman84
andythefir wrote:At a social event managing partner's husband gets liquored up and tells me that my law school (ranked in the 20s) is not as good as the local law school where most attorneys in the state attended (ranked in the 70s with a 60% bar passage rate).


That's the memorable thing for you? Some spouse not thinking your law school is prestigious? :wink:

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:23 pm
by andythefir
lawman84 wrote:
andythefir wrote:At a social event managing partner's husband gets liquored up and tells me that my law school (ranked in the 20s) is not as good as the local law school where most attorneys in the state attended (ranked in the 70s with a 60% bar passage rate).


That's the memorable thing for you? Some spouse not thinking your law school is prestigious? :wink:


There are many memorable things, but that's an example of boorish behavior that summers have to interpret in real time. It's an objectively rude and antagonistic thing to say in any context, and you have to figure out what it means for your future with the organization.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:27 am
by SemiReverseSplinter
andythefir wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
andythefir wrote:At a social event managing partner's husband gets liquored up and tells me that my law school (ranked in the 20s) is not as good as the local law school where most attorneys in the state attended (ranked in the 70s with a 60% bar passage rate).


That's the memorable thing for you? Some spouse not thinking your law school is prestigious? :wink:


There are many memorable things, but that's an example of boorish behavior that summers have to interpret in real time. It's an objectively rude and antagonistic thing to say in any context, and you have to figure out what it means for your future with the organization.


How is that not memorable?

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:07 am
by A. Nony Mouse
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.


It seems just as likely that you were misreading the situation the entire summer, and then cracked a joke about a partners balding, and as a result got no offered.

Or that the person who was there for the whole summer actually has the more accurate perception of what happened.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:42 am
by rpupkin
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.


It seems just as likely that you were misreading the situation the entire summer, and then cracked a joke about a partners balding, and as a result got no offered.

Or that the person who was there for the whole summer actually has the more accurate perception of what happened.

That is a fair reply, though I confess that I had the same take as RaceJudicata

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:14 am
by Pokemon
rpupkin wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.


It seems just as likely that you were misreading the situation the entire summer, and then cracked a joke about a partners balding, and as a result got no offered.

Or that the person who was there for the whole summer actually has the more accurate perception of what happened.

That is a fair reply, though I confess that I had the same take as RaceJudicata


I confess I thought the same, I can totally see a partner making a light joke and then things turning dark all of the sudden. Tat for tat is never a good idea in professional setting.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:22 am
by barkschool
andythefir wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I definitely did. Within the first week, I felt like I didn't fit in. I didn't like most of the attorneys, and there were symptoms of all kinds of dysfunctional relationships and procedures. I did good work, and received compliments on it, but something was off the whole summer. It was kind of like a bad date where everyone is politely waiting for it to end. And then at some point it wasn't particularly polite from either side.

It culminated with a firm social event where one partner thought it appropriate to make a joke about me (or my family or something, I don't recall) that was, IMO, out of bounds. In response, I made a joke about him balding, as he clearly was undergoing some therapy to try to keep his hair. My S/O laughed heartily, as did a few other attorneys. He got pissed. Fuck 'im.

Not biglaw, but people are people. If it's not obvious, I wouldn't stress it.


My situation was somewhat similar, although I was too fearful to ever take that tack. There were 3 summers, and they told us they might keep 1 at the end of the summer (despite NALP saying they historically had 100% offer rates). Summer coordinators told us that between the 3 of us across all assignments there was a total of 1 bad grade, and I'm pretty sure it was the very first project I did. The project was for a mega partner, one of the most famous attorneys in the state, who may have been the biggest jerk I have ever encountered personally. Other than that, feedback was almost uniformly very positive.

The firm brought on 3 laterals maybe halfway through the summer.

At a social event managing partner's husband gets liquored up and tells me that my law school (ranked in the 20s) is not as good as the local law school where most attorneys in the state attended (ranked in the 70s with a 60% bar passage rate).

Looking back on it, the entire firm was highly dysfunctional. I don't think anybody got an offer, but I certainly didn't. The no-offer was the best thing that ever happened to me.


Isn't there a scene in Batman about this? Involving broken pool cues.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:25 am
by A. Nony Mouse
rpupkin wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:It seems just as likely that you were misreading the situation the entire summer, and then cracked a joke about a partners balding, and as a result got no offered.

Or that the person who was there for the whole summer actually has the more accurate perception of what happened.

That is a fair reply, though I confess that I had the same take as RaceJudicata

Sure, it's possible, though I tend to think that if someone is misreading a situation that way the whole summer, it's not a good match at all.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:06 am
by andythefir
barkschool wrote:[
Isn't there a scene in Batman about this? Involving broken pool cues.


I had to turn off the Hunger Games because it was too similar to what I was experiencing.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:06 pm
by Anonymous User
Pokemon wrote:I confess I thought the same, I can totally see a partner making a light joke and then things turning dark all of the sudden. Tat for tat is never a good idea in professional setting.


Bald joke anon here. It wasn't a case of misreading. I had worked for a similar firm my 1L summer in terms of location, size, etc. (thankfully, otherwise I might have been walking into a trap), and the differences were night and day. More importantly, my wife thought the guy was being a dick as well, and she's about the most laid-back person ever. It wasn't tit-for-tat; it was an accumulation and I wasn't going to hold my tongue after a certain line was crossed.

Nearly half of the partners in that firm are gone now, some seven years later. I dodged a bullet.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:11 am
by Toni V
andythefir wrote:I had to turn off the Hunger Games because it was too similar to what I was experiencing.

:lol: :lol:

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:49 am
by Anonymous User
i've heard, anecdotally--of course, that a lot of folks at K&L Gates have been blindsided during the past few years.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:55 pm
by Anonymous User
One summer at my office got cold offered. Did not see it coming. However, that person not only turned in poor work (where they got negative partner feedback), they hooked up with another SA (they were not discrete; the SA who was cold-offered had a SO; the other SA was single and got an offer).

Just be a decent human being and you'll be fine at most firms.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:06 pm
by Prana-9
Anonymous User wrote: Just be a decent human being and you'll be fine at most firms.


This is not true post-2009ish

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:51 pm
by ookoshi
Prana-9 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Just be a decent human being and you'll be fine at most firms.


This is not true post-2009ish


With the OP qualifying it with "most," I think this is becoming more true in the past couple of years since the economy has stabilized and firms are better able to forecast their financial outlook again. From what I've heard from my classmates at other firms, "most" V100 firms are attempting to limit their SA offers to the number of associate positions they expect to need to fill, and was told that a full-time offer was "theirs to lose."

This isn't to say that if we have another recession firms won't do what they did in in 2009-10 in aggressively defer/revoke/no-offer of course. Any advice on stuff like this has a pretty short shelf life.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:58 pm
by Anonymous User
I was fine until I wasn't. I asked a partner a question one day and he got annoyed and asked me if I had a confidence issue. Had one bad assignment, recruiting talked to me about what I needed to improve. I improved, got nothing but positive feedback for the rest of the summer. Got no offer anyway.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:44 pm
by andythefir
ookoshi wrote:
Prana-9 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Just be a decent human being and you'll be fine at most firms.


This is not true post-2009ish


With the OP qualifying it with "most," I think this is becoming more true in the past couple of years since the economy has stabilized and firms are better able to forecast their financial outlook again. From what I've heard from my classmates at other firms, "most" V100 firms are attempting to limit their SA offers to the number of associate positions they expect to need to fill, and was told that a full-time offer was "theirs to lose."

This isn't to say that if we have another recession firms won't do what they did in in 2009-10 in aggressively defer/revoke/no-offer of course. Any advice on stuff like this has a pretty short shelf life.


While this may be true for top firms, lots and lots and lots of folks will work for firms that have different practices. Firms in Texas and the south split summers, which necessarily has a completely different dynamic. I interviewed with a firm in Texas that anticipated having 10 summers and keeping 1-2. The firm where I was a summer took 3 summers every year and didn't extend an offer to any of them for a 5 year span.

Re: Did you see the no offer coming?

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:06 pm
by texanslimjim
andythefir wrote:
ookoshi wrote:
Prana-9 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Just be a decent human being and you'll be fine at most firms.


This is not true post-2009ish


With the OP qualifying it with "most," I think this is becoming more true in the past couple of years since the economy has stabilized and firms are better able to forecast their financial outlook again. From what I've heard from my classmates at other firms, "most" V100 firms are attempting to limit their SA offers to the number of associate positions they expect to need to fill, and was told that a full-time offer was "theirs to lose."

This isn't to say that if we have another recession firms won't do what they did in in 2009-10 in aggressively defer/revoke/no-offer of course. Any advice on stuff like this has a pretty short shelf life.


While this may be true for top firms, lots and lots and lots of folks will work for firms that have different practices. Firms in Texas and the south split summers, which necessarily has a completely different dynamic. I interviewed with a firm in Texas that anticipated having 10 summers and keeping 1-2. The firm where I was a summer took 3 summers every year and didn't extend an offer to any of them for a 5 year span.


I think the presumption is still we're talking V100 (or at least wannabe V100, like Gardere). Some V100 Texas offices have mediocre offer rates, but I haven't seen any as bad as 20% or 0%. To the extent that firms like V&E have relatively bad offer rates, I do think a lot of that does have to do with split summers.

Which, by the away, basically ended this year. Nearly every big law firm in Texas switched to 8-10 week first-half only SA programs this year. Which is reason to think offer rates will approve across the board, because those SAs who receive no offer because they explicitly or implicitly signal that they've already chosen their other summer firm will no longer stink up the stats.