Leaving law - am I crazy?

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Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:11 pm

Hi all,

I'm considering leaving law - and the job I'd wanted for several years - after less than two years, even though I like the people I work with and I know 20000 other would like to have my job. I'd value your input. Tell me I'm crazy if you that's what you think.

A little about me:
I'm a K-JD. I graduated near the top of my class from a T-14. Law review. Etc. I took a job in a large market, though not a mega legal market, for personal reasons (gf - now wife - and her job). I have no kids. The firm I'm at is one of the best few firms in this city and it's the firm I wanted when I entered law school. I summered at this firm after my 2L year and picked a practice group based almost only on their need and the fact that I'd gotten to know the people in the group and really like them. It's a niche group that I knew nothing about and I won't get more specific than that. I'm making the market where I'm at but nothing close to 180. I didn't get a bonus last year and won't this year because we are very slow. I have debt but it's not awful - my monthly payments are under $1000.

I wasn't crazy about law school, but I found the LSAT and law exams to be fairly straightforward. Since I have a worthless college degree, I powered through thinking I'd like practice more and that I didn't really have other options.

I don't like what I'm doing. Not at all. I'm bored when we are slow, and I'm even more bored when there is work to do. My hours are terrible. While keeping track of every .1 isn't fun, adding them all up and realizing you are still way behind is worse, and hating the content of the work to get the .1s is worse yet. So, I'm mega bored but also somehow mega stressed. I want to leave. I could try to switch groups or go in house, but I don't think I'll be much happier in another legal job. I really think I just don't like law. I don't care about the things I'm supposed to care about. Going in house this early isn't much of an option anyway, and our clients are all far away and I don't really have the option to move.

I'm considering software development. I've done a lot of career testing in the last several weeks and it almost all points in this direction for personality and interest evaluations that I'll avoid diving into. I've done very little coding in my life at all, but from what little I've done, I have enjoyed. Further, from what I've read online, it's possible to make such a transition in less than a year, either through self study or one of those developer boot camps, and this is a much lower barrier to entry than other potential career matches. I understand it's a big pay cut initially and doesn't have near the upside of being a law partner, but I have little interest in doing what my bosses do, and while making solid money eventually is important to me, making a ton of money isn't, at least not relative to the necessary sacrifices. (As an aside, I'm also not sure the current law firm business model will exist for any but the most elite firms in 10-12 years).

I also understand that it's sort of crazy to dump so much time and money into a profession you only later realize you don't like. But I was a dumb 21 year old not thinking about the right things, and it's a sunk cost at this point.

Anyway, have I lost it? Am I just being a whiny millennial big law associate? Do you know anyone who has done something similar? What would you do? Am I missing something big? Any thoughts or comments are welcome.

Please don't quote as I'll probably delete in a few days.

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Dr. Nefario

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Dr. Nefario » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:41 pm

The fact that you haven't tried another practice group makes you think you should stick around and see if it helps. Also, you may just not be meant for firm life. In-house, local government, etc. options exist and you might wanna evaluate those. But I wouldn't switch my career to something like software development when you've never even coded before. Also, you might try lateraling to another firm if there are options, I know I personally wouldn't be happy simply based on the fact that you're expected to work market time but not make market money. Realistically law isn't for everyone, but, if you made a rash decision to go to law school and now regret it, making a rash decision to jump to something software based probably isn't smart either. Just 2 cents. Take it for what its worth.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:43 pm

I don't think anyone is crazy for wanting to leave law. In fact, a lot of attorneys switch careers and never look back. However, I think you need to think it through a little more. You're choosing software development based on...tests? That you think you'll like it? You need to have a better idea than that, otherwise you just risk repeating what's happening now. You thought you'd like being a lawyer based on very little, I'm assuming. Turns out you don't. What if it's the same thing again?

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby jphiggo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:57 pm

Depending on the job, it's entirely possible that you can end up with a worse daily routine involving work you despise, while still having to track your .1 for clients, in software development. You can acquire coding basics for a programming language relatively quickly. It's the fine tuning and best practices that take time to conquer. With that said, you could very easily teach yourself these basics and code some personal projects to get a feel for what it's like to code. Then realize you'll be doing that all day long for clients who don't understand anything and will spontaneously change their minds, constantly.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:15 pm

You're not crazy. I'm a big law associate almost back to 0 net worth and will almost certainly be leaving law entirely in the next year. The time and money you've put in are sunk costs. It's a miserable profession, and I'm speaking in regard to corporate law here (solo or small firm work is legit with the entrepreneurial angle, but lol at the average lawyer having the business sense to make that work).

The business and finance side pays us to do the boring, mind-numbing paperwork they don't want to deal with. It doesn't start at $180k per year because we have any special ability or talent. We're not making decisions about where to take on risk or adding any sort of creative value. It's purely a money for misery trade off. Most lawyers are so risk averse and afraid of the unknown that they stomach it and soldier on, and that leads to all the surveys labeling law as the most miserable, most depression, most alcoholism, etc. of any white collar profession. And in house is the same mind-numbing, tedious paperwork, but the hours are tolerable and people slightly better, so after big law that actually looks decent. It's still nothing to aspire to.

I'll probably take some heat on this post because this forum is full of law students and junior associates desperate to justify their decisions, but it is what it is. As far as your software development plans, maybe that's right for you but definitely make sure. Take (and finish) the CS50x course and talk to some software developers. Anecdotally, most of the software developers I know absolutely love it and some work on side projects outside of work. I can't think of a single lawyer that I could say anything remotely like that about.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Jchance » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:34 pm

You hate your current biglaw job, but this could mean several things: (1) you hate your firm/bosses/coworkers, (2) you hate the area of law you're practicing, (3) you hate private practice in general, or (4) you hate practicing law. You immediately jumped to (4), which is a poor conclusion because of the other possibilities. This is especially bad given that law is such a huge investment, and that you still have debt. (So yes, you're crazy.)

If I was you, I'd consider eliminate other possibilities before rashly leaving law for good. For instance, try clerking, you might like it (as everyone says it's the "best" job in the legal profession, besides judgeship or law professorship).
Last edited by Jchance on Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You're not crazy. I'm a big law associate almost back to 0 net worth and will almost certainly be leaving law entirely in the next year. The time and money you've put in are sunk costs. It's a miserable profession, and I'm speaking in regard to corporate law here (solo or small firm work is legit with the entrepreneurial angle, but lol at the average lawyer having the business sense to make that work).

The business and finance side pays us to do the boring, mind-numbing paperwork they don't want to deal with. It doesn't start at $180k per year because we have any special ability or talent. We're not making decisions about where to take on risk or adding any sort of creative value. It's purely a money for misery trade off. Most lawyers are so risk averse and afraid of the unknown that they stomach it and soldier on, and that leads to all the surveys labeling law as the most miserable, most depression, most alcoholism, etc. of any white collar profession. And in house is the same mind-numbing, tedious paperwork, but the hours are tolerable and people slightly better, so after big law that actually looks decent. It's still nothing to aspire to.

I'll probably take some heat on this post because this forum is full of law students and junior associates desperate to justify their decisions, but it is what it is. As far as your software development plans, maybe that's right for you but definitely make sure. Take (and finish) the CS50x course and talk to some software developers. Anecdotally, most of the software developers I know absolutely love it and some work on side projects outside of work. I can't think of a single lawyer that I could say anything remotely like that about.


Not going to pretend this is the best career ever, but you seriously don't know a single lawyer that loves their job?

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:31 pm

I know or know of a few solos that love their jobs. I get the feeling that it's largely due to being an entrepreneur than being a lawyer, though.

I'm in corporate big law. Two different firms and two different groups (tried a group change to see if it was better, and it was not). I don't know a single corporate lawyer that loves their job. I know very very few that would say they like it, and the one's that do say they like it are kind of weirdos that seem to enjoy working 7 days a week and have little to nothing going on outside of work. I know slightly more on the litigation side that like it. Again, think about the job. It's paper-pushing busy-work. There's no value add beyond being detail-oriented and having the ability to focus on mind-numbing minutiae that those on the business and finance side despise. It's a misery for money trade off. I should also add that I was in the camp that tried to rationalize all this before and during law school. I imagine many that read this are doing the same thing, and most of you will probably feel the way I do in a few years.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:32 pm

You're not at all crazy to be considering leaving and the reasons you are discussing are valid. But I agree with others that you should try some other aspects of law before leaving, if only because it will be very hard to get back in later if you change your mind.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Arbinshire » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:24 pm

I left a 15 year software development career because I saw where it was heading. First, there is a preference for degreed developers. While I was self-taught and better than most anyone, bean-counters came onto the scene and started preferring CS majors from varying schools. My undergrad wasn't anywhere near software dev, and I was overlooked despite being more than capable. Second, the thing that makes dev work suck now is there are overseas developers/companies that will do the same thing for pennies on the dollar. Finally, and this is mostly relevant to you, don't be a boot-camp developer. Everyone loathes them equally. They're generally less than capable and I fired many because of this.

Consider looking for an in-house position in a dev house.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Rowinguy2009 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:54 pm

I don't think you're crazy. A lot of people on here are saying to try a different firm, type of law, etc. While I get the thinking there, when I was unhappy and at a firm I felt like I had a good idea as to why I was unhappy and how to fix it. For me, I saw that I actually like being a lawyer (legal writing, research, etc.) but didn't like being at a firm (billing hours, working for a dozen or more partners who all just cared about their own caseloads, etc).

If you have looked at your situation and decided that law isn't for you, there's probably a reason why. I'm assuming your current thought process isn't a spur of the moment thing, but comes after some reflection and thought. I also assume, of course, that you've considered other law jobs, and decided that won't fix your problem.

All that being said, I know nothing about software development.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Onetimething » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:24 pm

Jchance wrote:You hate your current biglaw job, but this could mean several things: (1) you hate your firm/bosses/coworkers, (2) you hate the area of law you're practicing, (3) you hate private practice in general, or (4) you hate practicing law. You immediately jumped to (4), which is a poor conclusion because of the other possibilities. This is especially bad given that law is such a huge investment, and that you still have debt. (So yes, you're crazy.)

If I was you, I'd consider eliminate other possibilities before rashly leaving law for good. For instance, try clerking, you might like it (as everyone says it's the "best" job in the legal profession, besides judgeship or law professorship).


As I said in my post, I really like the people I work with. I didn't say this in my post, but I have done projects for a few other teams. Some are less terrible than what I usually do, but I haven't done any that aren't still really, really boring. At the end of the day, I'm still crossing Ts and dotting Is. Maybe stuff in the public sector would be better. I'm not sure. But I guess my assumption is there are probably more interesting ways to not make very much money than pushing paper around, and ways with a somewhat higher level of potential upside. Again, not trying to make a ton of money (e.g. partnership). But I'm also not trying to make a relatively small amount of money in law if there are more interesting ways to get the same or better pay.

Edit: Oops. Accidentally not anonymous. I'm OP. Guess it doesn't matter as these are my only posts. If anyone has any relevant personal experience they want to share privately, please pm me.
Last edited by Onetimething on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Again, think about the job. It's paper-pushing busy-work. There's no value add beyond being detail-oriented and having the ability to focus on mind-numbing minutiae that those on the business and finance side despise. It's a misery for money trade off. I should also add that I was in the camp that tried to rationalize all this before and during law school. I imagine many that read this are doing the same thing, and most of you will probably feel the way I do in a few years.


This pretty well summarizes my thought process a lot of the time.

I appreciate the responses everyone. I'm not going to rush into anything. Like I said, I'm only considering things at this point - not dead set on going a direction. I agree I need to do more investigating and perhaps try another legal job before leaving. I'm well aware that I fucked up going to law school on a whim (and I'm one of the "lucky" ones.) I won't repeat that mistake (part of why I'm posting here).

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Again, think about the job. It's paper-pushing busy-work. There's no value add beyond being detail-oriented and having the ability to focus on mind-numbing minutiae that those on the business and finance side despise. It's a misery for money trade off. I should also add that I was in the camp that tried to rationalize all this before and during law school. I imagine many that read this are doing the same thing, and most of you will probably feel the way I do in a few years.


This pretty well summarizes my thought process a lot of the time.

I appreciate the responses everyone. I'm not going to rush into anything. Like I said, I'm only considering things at this point - not dead set on going a direction. I agree I need to do more investigating and perhaps try another legal job before leaving. I'm well aware that I fucked up going to law school on a whim (and I'm one of the "lucky" ones.) I won't repeat that mistake (part of why I'm posting here).


I'm also trying not to rush into to anything, but it's hard to leave the longer you stay in law. After law school and 2 years of practice it's pretty easy to know whether or not law is for you. I don't need to try every different subspecialty of mind-numbing paperwork to know it's all generally miserable. Many lawyers will, though, because they're the most risk averse people on the planet and taking a chance on something absolutely terrifies them.

Also, don't let the idea that you're one of the "lucky ones" guilt you into staying. You were top of your class at a T14, not median at a TTT. Anyone on your situation that couldn't get biglaw is definitely the exception. FWIW, I worked in business before law school and have a pretty wide network. I don't know any other white collar profession among my friend group full of people desperate to leave their field entirely like the lawyers.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:32 am

Also, if you're interested in software development, talk to other lawyers turned software developers. There are a lot of software developers turned biglawyers that absolutely hated pushing meaningless paperwork and went back to tech. Lawyer to software developer without a pre-law school background is less common, but they're definitely out there, too.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby zot1 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:43 am

Since you're not necessarily money-driven, I urge to look into federal government work. The pay is really not bad (you could hit 6 figures within a few years or you might already be eligible for that given your time in biglaw). The hours are usually great. And the work is generally stimulating (caveat: all of these vary by agency/location, so you'd need to do your research).

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:33 pm

Take your time to really think about what you don't like - is it the specific job or the nature of the work? Like some posters have said above, it may be helpful for you to try another legal job, but if you are confident that it's the nature of the work then you should absolutely leave.

I worked at two different firms for several years after graduating until I decided to exit. I know make 6 figures in a business-role at a high growth technology company and I absolutely love it and have never looked back/regretted the decision. Regarding some of the above points about in-house work, while the setting and work environment may be different than firm life, the nature of in-house work is still very similar. Lawyers are my company work in purely support functions - providing guidance on compliance, helping to paper partnerships/deals that other people are closing, etc. There is a huge difference between working in a "line" function at a business, as opposed to a "staff" function (like in-house attorneys.)

A lot of your instincts are spot-on OP - the longer that you stay in the law, the more difficult it will be to transition out to something completely unrelated. A big reason why I left when I did was because I rationalized that I could take on more financial risk when I was younger and had fewer obligations. You may not have kids now, but one day you could and that will have a huge impact on your ability to just pivot to a completely new career/start from scratch.

I have many, many friends from law school who ask me about my transition out/want to leave themselves/hate their jobs (which range from biglaw to small law to gov work.) Life is too short to spend so much time doing a job that you don't like. If you decide the law isn't for you, find a gig where you like the day-to-day and don't get trapped into becoming one of the many unhappy career attorneys out there.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby BernieTrump » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:34 am

.
Last edited by BernieTrump on Thu May 11, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby zot1 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:02 am

BernieTrump wrote:You are me 5 years ago. It doesn't get better in law, and it only gets harder to leave.

Do it.


What are you doing now BernieTrump?

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:23 am

Let me tell a very unique story as a person who hated law, quit to go into business, and later came back. It took a lot of growth, maturity and therapy to realize I am often a grass is always greener person. When I went into business I actually realized I missed legal work (despite that I said I had hated it at my last biglaw firm) and just hated my former firm. A year after quitting biglaw I applied to many midlaw firms and landed with the perfect firm with people and work I love.

There are days when I still dont like being a lawyer, but overall I now think its a fantastic career. You did tons of legal education and you have an amazing resume. Try find a midlaw firm that fosters an incredibly positive environment, preferably a newly formed one more in touch with our times.

I realize you may not do this because you are so beyond despair that my voice cannot reach you but I hope you do listen. You are throwing away a lot of earning potential in a great career field. Give one more firm a try, then quit if you feel the same. You can invest one more year at another firm, it wont kill you, and if you do jump out, you will be certain you made the right call.

One last thing, this board does not say it, but i know a TON of people who regret quitting law to chase their dreams when it wasnt economically viable. These people spent too long out of biglaw and ended in shitlaw. This could happen to you as well. If you advance more in law, you can also do a side solo hustle to support your other ventures.

TLDR, dont give up on such an investment just yet and seek some therapy to see if other issues are not contributing (being lonely in a major city can be very damaging, for instance).

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby rdawkins28 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:30 am

Older software developer turned lawyer here with some incoherent ramblings. The grass is not always greener. There are many mind-numbing programming jobs. I was lucky enough to almost always work on new projects so that's always fun (and stressful). But for everything I or my team(s) developed, there's an army of mundane coders who maintained that code or acted as technical customer service. While I was working with java in mid 90s, there were programmers who were working on mainframes doing cobol and technologies from the 70s. Heck, they were troubleshooting thousands of lines of codes for Y2K.

Of course there are mind-numbing law jobs too. But there are also stimulating works. A smaller practice might be good for you. We're a two man team and we do everything from driving down to the police department to file an open record request to writing appellate briefs. Much more fun when you have cases to yourself and have to think from end to end how to get the outcome you want. And our practice is diverse enough that we're always looking things up. And we're lucky enough to be in a position where we don't have to take nickel-and-dime stuff.

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:05 am

I am someone that quit big law after 1.5 years to go into a b-side/project role at an investment back and recently came back to big law after only a year. After 1.5 years, I hated/despised big law. I thought the demands were completely unreasonable, I thought that my bosses and clients were absolutely bat shit crazy (millionaire maniacs calling me at 8 am on a Saturday to get a status update - update - i'm in f***ing bed sleeping a$$hole) and thought that life didn't get much worse. Funny thing is, I still think these things, but leaving law and coming back has helped me put things into perspective a little more.

I, like the poster above, have a grass is greener personality, which is something I am coming to terms with. Some days I don't care about money and want to quit all this corporate bullshit and move to the mountains, other days I look at my loan balance and think "I NEED this job". Ultimately its up to you to decide your own plan, crazy or not, but don't let others tell you what is best. That is how I got here in the first place, not trusting my gut instincts. I was told I was crazy/immature for quitting my b-side job, but that enabled me to take time off and travel around the country and just live and be free from the burdens for the first time in years. it allowed me to think about what i'm really trying to do with my career (still have no clue). Ultimately, I realized that much of the stress and pressure of big law I put on myself. There was constant tension between my head (you need this job) and my heart (this is miserable, just freaking quit) and I realized that was because of perspective and anxiety. At my new firm, I'm trying to just take each day at a time, realize i'm pretty lucky, and understand that the sacrifices I make now will help me and my family later on. I also know that this is not the career for me, so the burden and anxiety of not doing a super job is gone. If they want to fire me, go right on ahead, but I refuse to let student debt or crazy boomers make me into an anxious person.

To people that are thinking about quitting, I say DO IT. But don't do it to job or career hop, especially if you aren't sure what you want to do. But do it to take time for yourself, to think, to be introspective and read and understand yourself better. If you have the grades you say you do, taking some time for yourself won't be looked upon as a negative and you'll definitely get interviews when you come back (if you want to continue working as a lawyer).

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Voyager » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:47 am

OP: you are a normal, well adjusted human being.

It's a big world out there...

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby northwood » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:55 pm

wonder what OP is doing now?

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Re: Leaving law - am I crazy?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:07 pm

Not OP, but deeply unhappy at my big firm. Interested in leaving private practice at a minimum; perhaps law as a whole, but that's more difficult to conceptualize.



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