I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ClubberLang wrote:How have you "tried" both corporate and lit as someone interviewing for a 2L SA? I doubt it is the issue, but the pitch is pretty weak. Avoid adverbs (like "really enjoy," and "definitely see"). If I heard that, I'd just think someone was telling me what I wanted to hear. As a transfer I suspect you have to do more to impress interviewers, so at least be as precise as possible in your language. Also, if you think a 20 person firm is below you, don't even bother interviewing.


Had summer jobs at law firms in college; both lit. Did a corp job for my 1L summer


I think it's better to say you want one over every other - I'm sure there are people who can smoothly talk themselves into being unsure about both and just get in but I think firms like seeing that you know what you want to do. But if you would follow everyone's advice - NYC is a big market for corporate so you could conceivably say you lean towards corp

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Re: interview to callback ratio - OP may well need to work on interviewing, but if OCI was lottery only (like it often is at T14s), he may well have gotten screeners with firms he had no chance with.


I had 15 screeners; I bid V40 and below, except for 2 V20s that I took a chance on. Got 1 CB with a NYC v50, ding.

Right, but in a lottery system, firms have to interview the students that the school puts on their schedule. There's no guarantee that you actually meet the firm's internal requirements, beyond being a student at a school where they interview. If a firm wouldn't have hired you out of your original school, it's fairly unlikely to hire you as a transfer to the new school. This is the risk of transferring - OCI at a top school gives you access to many more firms/more elite firms, but you haven't even taken a day of classes at the new school, let alone have any grades from it, so you will often be perceived more as an Original School student, rather than a New School student. How this affects you depends on how the firms where you're applying view Original School (which probably relates to Vault rankings but isn't just about those rankings - a higher-ranked firm that's local to Original School may view it more favorably than a lower-ranked firm that's based elsewhere and doesn't know a thing about Original School) (leaving aside the uselessness of V-rankings).

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lawman84 wrote:Work on your interviewing. Evaluate your interview attire and appearance. Your interviewing skills and/or appearance are part of the problem here.


I am a 5'10'' male, fit, and always shave/haircut before, and wear a well fitting navy suit w/ brown shoes brown belt. I feel like I always look very good when I get ready for interviews


You don't go navy/brown for interviews. You go dark grey/black.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:31 am

Eh, I don't think there's any problem with a navy suit (I'll defer on brown v. black though).

But let's be honest - dress matters, but if the OP had no other problems with his application, I don't think wearing a slightly-more-informal color of shoe is going to sink him. It may be something he can address, but I doubt it's the root of the issue.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby zhenders » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:51 am

Navy/brown is fine. Come on, give this guy a break -- let's not troll him here. There is literally no partner conversation that has ever happened that involved a consideration of a guy's belt color.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:54 am

jbagelboy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
lawman84 wrote:Work on your interviewing. Evaluate your interview attire and appearance. Your interviewing skills and/or appearance are part of the problem here.


I am a 5'10'' male, fit, and always shave/haircut before, and wear a well fitting navy suit w/ brown shoes brown belt. I feel like I always look very good when I get ready for interviews


You don't go navy/brown for interviews. You go dark grey/black.


Eh. not a deal breaker. My interview outfit was the same as OPs and I did well. Also should note, Im in the south.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Hikikomorist » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:59 am

zhenders wrote:Navy/brown is fine. Come on, give this guy a break -- let's not troll him here. There is literally no partner conversation that has ever happened that involved a consideration of a guy's belt color.

Yeah, I thought that feedback seemed wrong.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby dizzydg » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:02 am

Hikikomorist wrote:
zhenders wrote:Navy/brown is fine. Come on, give this guy a break -- let's not troll him here. There is literally no partner conversation that has ever happened that involved a consideration of a guy's belt color.

Yeah, I thought that feedback seemed wrong.


Definitely a little outdated. Although I can say I wore a pair of argyle socks one time that a female partner glanced at and proceeded to give me an aggressive eyebrow raise.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:08 am

thanks for input everyone. I will be doing another mock interview at Career Serv next week with a different counselor to try and get more feedback.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:35 am

zhenders wrote:Navy/brown is fine. Come on, give this guy a break -- let's not troll him here. There is literally no partner conversation that has ever happened that involved a consideration of a guy's belt color.

Agreed. I lost my black belt somewhere and wore a brown belt with a black suit and black shoes. Can't say I personally loved the look but it didn't kill me in interviews (to my knowledge). Still got offers.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:21 am

I think you may be overestimating your credentials. Your grades are great but you have to remember that there are still thousands of students like you that have similar grades or better grades than you. I had similar grades/issues as you when I transferred about 5 years ago. The interview/callback ratio was roughly the same too. Most of the screeners that I got were lottery and not "real screeners." I lucked out and closed the deal for that one CB that I received from my own efforts. The problem is that it is unlikely a lot of firms in your previous market would interview you despite the fact that you are in the top 10%. At my new T25 school the firms didn't really like transferees much.

You need to go and "network." Try emailing associates that have connections with you and ask for coffee (i.e. informational interviews).

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:thanks for input everyone. I will be doing another mock interview at Career Serv next week with a different counselor to try and get more feedback.

Do you think single monk strap shoe is OK? LIke this one: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/magnanni-ma ... %20LEATHER

in grey


That shoe is fine and the way you dressed was fine. It's very unlikely that the suit you are wearing is why you didn't get call backs if it looked professional. No one is leaving the interview caring about whether your suit was navy or black, the posters are being wayyyy too critical. Also, "I can't even land a 20 attorney firm" is the wrong attitude to have. It doesn't matter how many attorneys the firm has, jobs are competitive. The reason you are not getting CB could easily be the attitude you are approaching it with. Your not above a 20 attorney firm. You don't even have a job.

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pancakes3

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby pancakes3 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:39 pm

the fashion talk and the soft skills talk both are marginal relative to the main advice: KEEP MASS MAILING.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:42 pm

Just wanted to chime in to say IME landing a 20 person firm summer job is even harder than biglaw, given lower class sizes if they exist at all.

IME you can't just mail these types of firms without some sort of connection. You should be reaching out to partners that are alums from your school or some connection or anything to talk over lunch so you have a reference to flag your application.

That can take more time obviously but is generally more helpful. When I was applying a few years ago I reached out to a partner from my law school in my home market, he took me to lunch, which was much easier to bond over than a 20 minute interview, gave me a list of about 20 of the best (small) firms in my home market he had a contact at and their names/emails, then typed up a short blip about how we met, I was nice enough, and he recommended the firms take a look at me. I forwarded that along with my app materials and got way more bites / responses, even if it was a simple sorry, we're not hiring. Eventually led to my job at a smaller firm.

You have to be creative and willing to put the work in here.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:43 pm

sorry double post

RaceJudicata

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby RaceJudicata » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:34 am

Landing a 20 attorney firm is significantly harder than landing a big law gig. Also, you are not in a position poo poo any firm.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Loquitur Res » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:58 am

Not to pile on, but I agree with the above posters that it is much harder to land an SA position at a 20 attorney firm. Not that you need better credentials, its simply a result of the tiny number of openings and needing close connections. I am from a small market where the majority of firms are in the 10-40 range. Many don't take on an SA every year. IF they do its one, maybe two. Landing these positions typically require at least some connection to these firms. Mass mailing will not do. Taking on an SA is a huge commitment for these firms. The last type of person they want is someone with an "I'm only applying because I have yet to land a biglaw/180k job yet" attitude. They want someone who wants to work at a small firm and put down roots in the local area.

Caveat, the above is generally true of 20ish attorney firms in my small market/ region. Could be different for small firms in NYC/LA/DC/CHI

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby FSK » Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:36 pm

The number of attorneys in the firm is a stupid metric. These firms have under 20 attorneys, and 99% of biglawyers couldn't get an offer here.
s
http://www.cooperkirk.com/lawyers/

Or this one

http://www.bancroftpllc.com/who-we-are/
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby gaddockteeg » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
gaddockteeg wrote:Your problem is obviously your interviewing. 1CB for 15 interviews is abysmal.

You are not even close to an okay interviewer. I myself am "okay." MY ratio was like 2 or 3 screeners to 1 CB.

Do some mocks with a friend or family who you know will give you real and honest criticism. It'll feel awkward but it's what you need.


Thats what I thought (I am OP) so I went to career serv and did a mock interview. Counselor said I did well -- all she suggested was I tweak a few answers (explain a bit longer on why practice area xxx), etc. No huge mistakes or anything.

Do you guys think it's because I am marketing myself into lit? When asked, I say ''I definitely see myself as a litigator; I've tried both corp and lit, and really enjoy litigation for x y z.'' (shortened version).

My fear is if I am marketing myself as lit, if a firm isn't looking to take on lit SAs, I'm dead in the water from the get-go


Forget career services and get a second opinion. Again, from family or friend you can trust to give you real advice. I went to career services as a 1L and was told similar things - not bad, work on x y and z. thhenn i asked my family friend and he pointed out a ton of things that went wrong and ways to improve.

what youre saying about lit or corp could be true but it doesnt account for 15:1 which is unexplainable by pretty much anything except that you are bad interviewing.

interviewing is not about not-making mistakes. its about being more likeable than the other interviewees in a short amount of time.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:51 pm

Honestly, the ratio can also be explained by the OP interviewing with firms that aren't interested in a transfer from his TT. (But working on interviewing is also always a good idea.)

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Honestly, the ratio can also be explained by the OP interviewing with firms that aren't interested in a transfer from his TT. (But working on interviewing is also always a good idea.)


But I don't think the OP's school works on a lottery system, based on the way he described how he got his screener interviews ("I usually get an initial interview because I am good on paper...") so wouldn't the firms already know he was a transfer student from X school before extending the screener invite?

In any case, good luck op. Hope you find something awesome for next summer.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Honestly, the ratio can also be explained by the OP interviewing with firms that aren't interested in a transfer from his TT. (But working on interviewing is also always a good idea.)


But I don't think the OP's school works on a lottery system, based on the way he described how he got his screener interviews ("I usually get an initial interview because I am good on paper...") so wouldn't the firms already know he was a transfer student from X school before extending the screener invite?

In any case, good luck op. Hope you find something awesome for next summer.


Could be explained if he was referring to screeners he got from MM'ing

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Honestly, the ratio can also be explained by the OP interviewing with firms that aren't interested in a transfer from his TT. (But working on interviewing is also always a good idea.)


But I don't think the OP's school works on a lottery system, based on the way he described how he got his screener interviews ("I usually get an initial interview because I am good on paper...") so wouldn't the firms already know he was a transfer student from X school before extending the screener invite?

In any case, good luck op. Hope you find something awesome for next summer.

Almost no T14 schools do preselect (except UVA, partly, I think?), though. But I agree that for MM it's the equivalent of preselect.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:25 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Honestly, the ratio can also be explained by the OP interviewing with firms that aren't interested in a transfer from his TT. (But working on interviewing is also always a good idea.)


But I don't think the OP's school works on a lottery system, based on the way he described how he got his screener interviews ("I usually get an initial interview because I am good on paper...") so wouldn't the firms already know he was a transfer student from X school before extending the screener invite?

In any case, good luck op. Hope you find something awesome for next summer.

Almost no T14 schools do preselect (except UVA, partly, I think?), though. But I agree that for MM it's the equivalent of preselect.


Georgetown also has a hybrid type system, at least in my understanding. Also, it looks like op is looking at a (possibly smaller) home market that may look for ties. So it's possible he focused his efforts on home market firms that made themselves available through his schools regional interview week (potentially preselect depending on school) or a resume collection type deal (definitely preselect), or MM'ed. Regardless, the way op described it makes me think that neither the lottery system nor a firms disinterest in his original school is particularly relevant in the ratio here, unless he's seriously misunderstood the way his schools interview process works. HOWEVER, I do agree with what you're saying big picture - there could be a lot of explanations for ops interview success ratio that don't involve his interviewing skills, buts it's good to prepare either way! who knows though. Op please clarify!

Also for anon above a. nony - How does referring to screeners he mm'ed explain anything other than the fact that he's referencing particular interviews with firms that probably knew of his transfer status/school but interviewed him anyway? If he is referring to mm'ed firms, then even if his school is lottery system, the interviews he's talking about in this post would have dinged him for his original school pre- screener if it was a concern.

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Re: I Can't Even Land a 20 Attorney Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:49 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Honestly, the ratio can also be explained by the OP interviewing with firms that aren't interested in a transfer from his TT. (But working on interviewing is also always a good idea.)


But I don't think the OP's school works on a lottery system, based on the way he described how he got his screener interviews ("I usually get an initial interview because I am good on paper...") so wouldn't the firms already know he was a transfer student from X school before extending the screener invite?

In any case, good luck op. Hope you find something awesome for next summer.

Almost no T14 schools do preselect (except UVA, partly, I think?), though. But I agree that for MM it's the equivalent of preselect.


I am at Berkeley, 100% lottery.



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