Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

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Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:57 pm

I've noticed Kirkland has a pretty bad reputation on TLS, so I was hoping some associates who actually work at the firm could chime in on this thread. Is it really as miserable and as intense as people say? I honestly did not notice the ultra competitive, cutthroat vibe when I was there for my CB. I though everyone seemed pretty normal, so I was surprised to notice the firm has such a horrible reputation on TLS.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:59 am

I worked in Kirkland DC for a few years as an associate and worked closely with NY on a few matters. Kirkland is an intense place to work and the people that thrive are people who are confident, A-Type, self-starters. The culture is demanding and some of the partners are horrible. I've seen associates get chewed out and brought to tears. I've seen associates embarrassed in meetings for making mistakes. That's not every partner, but there's definitely that old school BS that happens. But you get fantastic formal training, the firm has a fantastic reputation across many industries, and given the breadth of its work, I'm not sure there's a better overall firm out there. You'll also likely be paid more than your peers.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I worked in Kirkland DC for a few years as an associate and worked closely with NY on a few matters. Kirkland is an intense place to work and the people that thrive are people who are confident, A-Type, self-starters. The culture is demanding and some of the partners are horrible. I've seen associates get chewed out and brought to tears. I've seen associates embarrassed in meetings for making mistakes. That's not every partner, but there's definitely that old school BS that happens. But you get fantastic formal training, the firm has a fantastic reputation across many industries, and given the breadth of its work, I'm not sure there's a better overall firm out there. You'll also likely be paid more than your peers.


I work at K&E and it is for people who are driven and want to learn and work hard. Every firm has bad apple partners, and the benefit of a free market system is that you don't ever have to work for that partner you don't like again. There is plenty of work and there are plenty of great people to work for so you should never have to take on a deal with a partner you've heard bad things about or whom you dislike. Also - you'd be insane to think you'd work any more than if you were at a comparable firm. Associates at STB, Latham, Cravath, Skadden etc. are all pulling the same hours. The benefit of K&E is you'll get compensated a bit more.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I worked in Kirkland DC for a few years as an associate and worked closely with NY on a few matters. Kirkland is an intense place to work and the people that thrive are people who are confident, A-Type, self-starters. The culture is demanding and some of the partners are horrible. I've seen associates get chewed out and brought to tears. I've seen associates embarrassed in meetings for making mistakes. That's not every partner, but there's definitely that old school BS that happens. But you get fantastic formal training, the firm has a fantastic reputation across many industries, and given the breadth of its work, I'm not sure there's a better overall firm out there. You'll also likely be paid more than your peers.


I work at K&E and it is for people who are driven and want to learn and work hard. Every firm has bad apple partners, and the benefit of a free market system is that you don't ever have to work for that partner you don't like again. There is plenty of work and there are plenty of great people to work for so you should never have to take on a deal with a partner you've heard bad things about or whom you dislike. Also - you'd be insane to think you'd work any more than if you were at a comparable firm. Associates at STB, Latham, Cravath, Skadden etc. are all pulling the same hours. The benefit of K&E is you'll get compensated a bit more.


Could you say more about the "you'll get compensated a bit more" part? Do you mean bonus-wise or is it something else? thanks!

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby RaceJudicata » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:29 am

Yes you get paid more via bonuses. Bonuses last year were at minimum market, and then went up to 2x market or thereabouts.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby sublime » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:34 am

Well, since nobody has done it yet:


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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby sesto elemento » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:06 pm

sublime wrote:Well, since nobody has done it yet:





Lazy mod can't even link to original threat:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=207123

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:18 pm

While you will get earth shattering brownies, I think Kirkland ranks up there with places like Skadden that are way more strict and sweat shopy about hours. Yes, biglaw is biglaw. You will be working a ton. I think some people definitely thrive in the environment but I'd say it's not most. If you think you're the Kirkland type, go for it. But I'd venture to guess that most people aren't cut out for the demands and personalities (read: dick partners).

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:41 pm

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:While you will get earth shattering brownies, I think Kirkland ranks up there with places like Skadden that are way more strict and sweat shopy about hours. Yes, biglaw is biglaw. You will be working a ton. I think some people definitely thrive in the environment but I'd say it's not most. If you think you're the Kirkland type, go for it. But I'd venture to guess that most people aren't cut out for the demands and personalities (read: dick partners).


Brownies?

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby pa1901 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LaLiLuLeLo wrote:While you will get earth shattering brownies, I think Kirkland ranks up there with places like Skadden that are way more strict and sweat shopy about hours. Yes, biglaw is biglaw. You will be working a ton. I think some people definitely thrive in the environment but I'd say it's not most. If you think you're the Kirkland type, go for it. But I'd venture to guess that most people aren't cut out for the demands and personalities (read: dick partners).


Brownies?


They send a big box of brownies to offerees. Not sure if they send more brownies later down the road to those who accept their offers, but at least last year you got to enjoy the brownies even if you didn't ultimately accept.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby itbdvorm » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I worked in Kirkland DC for a few years as an associate and worked closely with NY on a few matters. Kirkland is an intense place to work and the people that thrive are people who are confident, A-Type, self-starters. The culture is demanding and some of the partners are horrible. I've seen associates get chewed out and brought to tears. I've seen associates embarrassed in meetings for making mistakes. That's not every partner, but there's definitely that old school BS that happens. But you get fantastic formal training, the firm has a fantastic reputation across many industries, and given the breadth of its work, I'm not sure there's a better overall firm out there. You'll also likely be paid more than your peers.


Sweatshop is the wrong word. The bolded sections are the part that I do think differentiates K&E. Almost every other firm has been taking actions over the past few years to make themselves "kinder, gentler" - less screaming, less embarrassing, etc. K&E seems to solely value the $ and doesn't care how you get it.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:29 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I worked in Kirkland DC for a few years as an associate and worked closely with NY on a few matters. Kirkland is an intense place to work and the people that thrive are people who are confident, A-Type, self-starters. The culture is demanding and some of the partners are horrible. I've seen associates get chewed out and brought to tears. I've seen associates embarrassed in meetings for making mistakes. That's not every partner, but there's definitely that old school BS that happens. But you get fantastic formal training, the firm has a fantastic reputation across many industries, and given the breadth of its work, I'm not sure there's a better overall firm out there. You'll also likely be paid more than your peers.


Sweatshop is the wrong word. The bolded sections are the part that I do think differentiates K&E. Almost every other firm has been taking actions over the past few years to make themselves "kinder, gentler" - less screaming, less embarrassing, etc. K&E seems to solely value the $ and doesn't care how you get it.


I work there are totally disagree. I've never been yelled at and have heard no stories of any of my fellow associates being yelled at. I genuinely like all the partners I interact with. Have heard tales of some difficult ones (not rising to the level of screaming and making people cry), but have stayed away - which is the beauty of the free market system. When they call for deals, I just say no and don't need to offer any excuse as to why.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby SLS_AMG » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:27 pm

I have no dog in this fight, but I have a little trouble believing the K&E associates who are always defending the firm with the "free market" excuse. If you're trying to stay on pace for bonus-level hours, I really, really doubt you're turning down a lot of work, regardless of who is offering it. Sounds good in theory, but I just really doubt it works in practice.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:50 pm

SLS_AMG wrote:I have no dog in this fight, but I have a little trouble believing the K&E associates who are always defending the firm with the "free market" excuse. If you're trying to stay on pace for bonus-level hours, I really, really doubt you're turning down a lot of work, regardless of who is offering it. Sounds good in theory, but I just really doubt it works in practice.


Yeah, it's nice to have the above market bonus, but there are diminishing returns. A lot of associates might be cool with billing 2500 hours to get a 2x market bonus, but very few are willing to bill 3200 to get 4x market. It's just not worth it. And if you say yes to everything you get offered at Kirkland, you will probably end up billing over 3000.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:55 pm

SLS_AMG wrote:I have no dog in this fight, but I have a little trouble believing the K&E associates who are always defending the firm with the "free market" excuse. If you're trying to stay on pace for bonus-level hours, I really, really doubt you're turning down a lot of work, regardless of who is offering it. Sounds good in theory, but I just really doubt it works in practice.


Disagree. Have seen associates turn down work without any issue. I think one of the benefits of Kirkland is there's just a lot of work all the time, so you do have more ability to turn down work and it is understandable if you do. Obviously if it is slow for everyone in your practice area and you turn down work, then it looks bad. But this isn't often the case at Kirkland, you'll still usually be able to meet your hours even if you might have slow periods due to the market.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
SLS_AMG wrote:I have no dog in this fight, but I have a little trouble believing the K&E associates who are always defending the firm with the "free market" excuse. If you're trying to stay on pace for bonus-level hours, I really, really doubt you're turning down a lot of work, regardless of who is offering it. Sounds good in theory, but I just really doubt it works in practice.


Yeah, it's nice to have the above market bonus, but there are diminishing returns. A lot of associates might be cool with billing 2500 hours to get a 2x market bonus, but very few are willing to bill 3200 to get 4x market. It's just not worth it. And if you say yes to everything you get offered at Kirkland, you will probably end up billing over 3000.


Yes there's just times when you literally cannot handle any more client matters.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:02 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I worked in Kirkland DC for a few years as an associate and worked closely with NY on a few matters. Kirkland is an intense place to work and the people that thrive are people who are confident, A-Type, self-starters. The culture is demanding and some of the partners are horrible. I've seen associates get chewed out and brought to tears. I've seen associates embarrassed in meetings for making mistakes. That's not every partner, but there's definitely that old school BS that happens. But you get fantastic formal training, the firm has a fantastic reputation across many industries, and given the breadth of its work, I'm not sure there's a better overall firm out there. You'll also likely be paid more than your peers.


Sweatshop is the wrong word. The bolded sections are the part that I do think differentiates K&E. Almost every other firm has been taking actions over the past few years to make themselves "kinder, gentler" - less screaming, less embarrassing, etc. K&E seems to solely value the $ and doesn't care how you get it.


Will agree to an extent on the bolded part. But those aren't mutually exclusive things, you want associates to do good work and to stay. I think K&E NY recognizes that it had partners that gave it a bad reputation (the screamers and yellers) and did away with some of them (or they left on their own). Either way, I think K&E is making an effort. I can see the partners and senior associates having high expectations and that may be difficult to work with, but from those that I met and worked with, none seemed unreasonable.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:05 pm

OP here. Can anyone speak to average billables at Kirkland, and how those numbers compare to peer firms? I suppose having vicious partners goes hand in hand with pulling crazy hours, although based on this thread so far I guess it's inconclusive if partners at KE are that bad.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby tyroneslothrop1 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:15 pm

Incredible number of KE associates who just loooovee it there. I only know one KE associate, and I loathe her. She probably gets off on billing 3K hours a year.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Can anyone speak to average billables at Kirkland, and how those numbers compare to peer firms? I suppose having vicious partners goes hand in hand with pulling crazy hours, although based on this thread so far I guess it's inconclusive if partners at KE are that bad.


KE associate. My last 3 years' hours were 2150, 2200, 2100 and I think that's a little bit over the average, based on what I heard at the year end bonus meetings.

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Can anyone speak to average billables at Kirkland, and how those numbers compare to peer firms? I suppose having vicious partners goes hand in hand with pulling crazy hours, although based on this thread so far I guess it's inconclusive if partners at KE are that bad.


KE associate. My last 3 years' hours were 2150, 2200, 2100 and I think that's a little bit over the average, based on what I heard at the year end bonus meetings.


Thanks! Are you lit or corporate? And if you don't mind, how much times the market was your bonus with those hours?

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Wild Card » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:43 pm

sublime wrote:Well, since nobody has done it yet:



The "on balance, I think my life remains in balance" woman died of heart failure (?).

https://web.archive.org/web/20100920005 ... com/about/

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby sublime » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:44 pm

Yea dude. Super fucking sad. Was pregnant or just had a baby too iirc

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Can anyone speak to average billables at Kirkland, and how those numbers compare to peer firms? I suppose having vicious partners goes hand in hand with pulling crazy hours, although based on this thread so far I guess it's inconclusive if partners at KE are that bad.


KE associate. My last 3 years' hours were 2150, 2200, 2100 and I think that's a little bit over the average, based on what I heard at the year end bonus meetings.


Thanks! Are you lit or corporate? And if you don't mind, how much times the market was your bonus with those hours?



corporate and bonuses have ranged from 1.5-1.75x

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Re: Kirkland NY= sweatshop?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:59 am

Anyone know if the Kirkland 10k signing bonus that I've seen around these forums and on ATL (http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-firm ... rst-years/) is a thing for the NY office?



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