Beginning to lose hope...

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Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:50 pm

T14 transfer student; did OCI and only got 2 callbacks; dinged from both. Been MMing for a long time, and feel like I've exhausted the firms.. I mailed every NYC firm within reason (below V50) that I could find on martindale/online/nalp.

I also mailed 4 secondary markets (texas, florida, seattle, san diego/los angeles). Really dont even have ties to any beside one.

Feel like I just can't keep mass mailing...I can't even find any more firms to mail.

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zot1

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby zot1 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:25 pm

Here's a tip: in this profession, you can't lose hope until you find, at the very least, a post-grad job.

Have you tried to network with anyone at the firms you've been massmailing? Maybe an alum from your school?

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:30 pm

zot1 wrote:Here's a tip: in this profession, you can't lose hope until you find, at the very least, a post-grad job.

Have you tried to network with anyone at the firms you've been massmailing? Maybe an alum from your school?


Feel like coffee/networking with alums is such a big time commitment with little chance of reward... Met with an alum at a large firm in my home town for coffee, went great, interview with the firm at OCI for same office where associate works, and dinged.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby zot1 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
zot1 wrote:Here's a tip: in this profession, you can't lose hope until you find, at the very least, a post-grad job.

Have you tried to network with anyone at the firms you've been massmailing? Maybe an alum from your school?


Feel like coffee/networking with alums is such a big time commitment with little chance of reward... Met with an alum at a large firm in my home town for coffee, went great, interview with the firm at OCI for same office where associate works, and dinged.


I don't know, dude. I feel like when you don't have anything lineup, you gotta hustle. Otherwise, what's the point?

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby AZ123 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
zot1 wrote:Here's a tip: in this profession, you can't lose hope until you find, at the very least, a post-grad job.

Have you tried to network with anyone at the firms you've been massmailing? Maybe an alum from your school?


Feel like coffee/networking with alums is such a big time commitment with little chance of reward... Met with an alum at a large firm in my home town for coffee, went great, interview with the firm at OCI for same office where associate works, and dinged.


Networking is worth the time commitment 100%. Sometimes takes fifteen alumni phone calls or five lunch meetings to make even one good connection that could remotely lead to a job, but it's worth it. Every callback I had, with the exception of one, came either directly or indirectly as a result of networking.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:06 pm

Also in your shoes, OP. T14 transfer, 1 CB from OCI, 1 from mass mail, 2 dings. I've been dinged by 45 firms at this point. I MM'd and networked all summer. Talked to associates over the phone. One partner at my first CB obviously liked me. Stopped me before I went down the elevator, told me to keep in touch with him, and said, "You should accept our offer." Dinged two days later via email (I guess he says that to everyone). Did mock interviews with career services and all they could tell me was that I "seemed sort of laid back" and I could use more energy.

It feels like pure randomness, with the very real possibility of being screwed.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby zot1 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:07 pm

zot1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
zot1 wrote:Here's a tip: in this profession, you can't lose hope until you find, at the very least, a post-grad job.

Have you tried to network with anyone at the firms you've been massmailing? Maybe an alum from your school?


Feel like coffee/networking with alums is such a big time commitment with little chance of reward... Met with an alum at a large firm in my home town for coffee, went great, interview with the firm at OCI for same office where associate works, and dinged.


I don't know, dude. I feel like when you don't have anything lineup, you gotta hustle. Otherwise, what's the point?


Actually let me try harder because maybe you need to be pushed right now.

This could define the rest of your career/life. Don't you think that's worth hustling even if the return rate is low? After all, you do only need one offer.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also in your shoes, OP. T14 transfer, 1 CB from OCI, 1 from mass mail, 2 dings. I've been dinged by 45 firms at this point. I MM'd and networked all summer. Talked to associates over the phone. One partner at my first CB obviously liked me. Stopped me before I went down the elevator, told me to keep in touch with him, and said, "You should accept our offer." Dinged two days later via email (I guess he says that to everyone). Did mock interviews with career services and all they could tell me was that I "seemed sort of laid back" and I could use more energy.

It feels like pure randomness, with the very real possibility of being screwed.


OP here. Are you beginning to feel like transferring was a bad idea? I sort of am. I am now paying 60k a year, instead of 15k a year at my last law school, and I feel like I could have gotten a job at my last school because of my high rank. This process is soul crushing. I have a great resume, and had good connections on my CBs, but dings nonetheless. I dont know if being a white male hurts my chances a lot, but I know people from my last school, with far lower rank, who were black or hispanic, that have jobs lined up at Latham Watkins and other amazing firms. Not saying it was just because of their race/ethnicity, but I do think thats a strong factor.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Genius » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:T14 transfer student; did OCI and only got 2 callbacks; dinged from both. Been MMing for a long time, and feel like I've exhausted the firms.. I mailed every NYC firm within reason (below V50) that I could find on martindale/online/nalp.

I also mailed 4 secondary markets (texas, florida, seattle, san diego/los angeles). Really dont even have ties to any beside one.

Feel like I just can't keep mass mailing...I can't even find any more firms to mail.


im a median at non-T14 and found a job recently at a midsize firm in a major market downtown. Took me 2 months. nothing special about my resume and my GPA is mediocre. The key is to stay positive, resilient, and creative. When you massmail, be sure to reach out to partners who went to your law school or undergrad. Alumni connection is a fiction but it is a legit excuse to contact them by email.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also in your shoes, OP. T14 transfer, 1 CB from OCI, 1 from mass mail, 2 dings. I've been dinged by 45 firms at this point. I MM'd and networked all summer. Talked to associates over the phone. One partner at my first CB obviously liked me. Stopped me before I went down the elevator, told me to keep in touch with him, and said, "You should accept our offer." Dinged two days later via email (I guess he says that to everyone). Did mock interviews with career services and all they could tell me was that I "seemed sort of laid back" and I could use more energy.

It feels like pure randomness, with the very real possibility of being screwed.


OP here. Are you beginning to feel like transferring was a bad idea? I sort of am. I am now paying 60k a year, instead of 15k a year at my last law school, and I feel like I could have gotten a job at my last school because of my high rank. This process is soul crushing. I have a great resume, and had good connections on my CBs, but dings nonetheless. I dont know if being a white male hurts my chances a lot, but I know people from my last school, with far lower rank, who were black or hispanic, that have jobs lined up at Latham Watkins and other amazing firms. Not saying it was just because of their race/ethnicity, but I do think thats a strong factor.


I'm a white guy too but I know of plenty of white guys with much lower GPAs who landed multiple offers.

Do I regret transferring? Had I known I would be in my current situation when I made the decision, I probably would not have transferred and left my scholarship. I am worried about the debt now. :cry: However, I do like the caliber of the students and professors here. I feel like it's going to motivate me to work harder and consequently become a better lawyer. If I do find a job that allows me to pay off this debt, I'll probably be happy with the decision in the long run.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also in your shoes, OP. T14 transfer, 1 CB from OCI, 1 from mass mail, 2 dings. I've been dinged by 45 firms at this point. I MM'd and networked all summer. Talked to associates over the phone. One partner at my first CB obviously liked me. Stopped me before I went down the elevator, told me to keep in touch with him, and said, "You should accept our offer." Dinged two days later via email (I guess he says that to everyone). Did mock interviews with career services and all they could tell me was that I "seemed sort of laid back" and I could use more energy.

It feels like pure randomness, with the very real possibility of being screwed.


OP here. Are you beginning to feel like transferring was a bad idea? I sort of am. I am now paying 60k a year, instead of 15k a year at my last law school, and I feel like I could have gotten a job at my last school because of my high rank. This process is soul crushing. I have a great resume, and had good connections on my CBs, but dings nonetheless. I dont know if being a white male hurts my chances a lot, but I know people from my last school, with far lower rank, who were black or hispanic, that have jobs lined up at Latham Watkins and other amazing firms. Not saying it was just because of their race/ethnicity, but I do think thats a strong factor.


I'm a white guy too but I know of plenty of white guys with much lower GPAs who landed multiple offers.

Do I regret transferring? Had I known I would be in my current situation when I made the decision, I probably would not have transferred and left my scholarship. I am worried about the debt now. :cry: However, I do like the caliber of the students and professors here. I feel like it's going to motivate me to work harder and consequently become a better lawyer. If I do find a job that allows me to pay off this debt, I'll probably be happy with the decision in the long run.


OP here. Strangely, my professors at my T3, I think, were better than the ones here at MVPB. Professors here are more acclaimed and have published more shit, but professors at my T3 all went to the top schools and were really engaging and seemed to love what they taught.

Off topic, but I am trying to remain positive about the SA search. I still have a few more interviews lined up with midsize firms, but going off my track record, It isn't looking good.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:26 pm

Today from a NYC firm I received an email from the head partner doing recruiting wanting to see where I am in the process of accepting positions and they are about to make decisions and wanted to see where I am. The email also says that they were very impressed with my interview. Thoughts at what this could mean and do they do this to all candidates?

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:26 pm

Same here.... yesterday I received a call from a firm wanting to see where I am in the process as they are about to make decisions and wanted to see where I am at. What does this mean?

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby malibustacy » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:31 pm

Respond with total enthusiasm. Sounds like you two are on a "waitlist" of sorts, and maybe you'll get an offer if their first wave of offers don't pan out.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:33 pm

Is it possible that they are going to make an offer and just wanted to see if we accepted anywhere else?

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby DCESQ » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:42 pm

As a T14 transfer myself from a TT/TTT school, I found that the best strategy was to target the market where my 1L school was located. If you transferred into a T14, you must have been near the top of your old school so grades are not likely a factor. Or if your old school doesn't really have a "home market" (thinking like an Iowa/Nebraska school) then target the market(s) where most of your 1L school graduates go.

This would obviously be for MM, OCI you have to deal with the markets that come to your school, but everyone says NY doesn't care about ties so that might be your best bet.

This worked for me and other transfers from my school and was stated to be good advice from interviewers at OCI but YMMV.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:34 pm

T20 with engineering degree went into OCI with a ton of preselects
focused on IP - have patent pros. experience and 1L summer job was in related field. also did some IP lit work there and focused on that for IP-lit only GP firms

grades not great but above median and within many firms' range

0 cb's from oci
-dinged by most oci firms - still waiting on a few but at this point...
1 skype screener from around 300 mass mails

got good feedback from mock interviewers

as you can guess I am pretty depressed. kind of picked up a drinking problem (as in nightcapping to deal with anxiety) but still mass mailing (at a lower rate bc school and the fact that I mailed most places with IP practices already). really regret not going to PLIP but seeing how things are likely i would have struck out there too

at this point I assume I am not getting a legal job. cant really do public interest or whatever bc my resume screams IP. probably going to go into *distribution* to pay off law school loans.

still mass mailing tho

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:T20 with engineering degree went into OCI with a ton of preselects
focused on IP - have patent pros. experience and 1L summer job was in related field. also did some IP lit work there and focused on that for IP-lit only GP firms

grades not great but above median and within many firms' range

0 cb's from oci
-dinged by most oci firms - still waiting on a few but at this point...
1 skype screener from around 300 mass mails

got good feedback from mock interviewers

as you can guess I am pretty depressed. kind of picked up a drinking problem (as in nightcapping to deal with anxiety) but still mass mailing (at a lower rate bc school and the fact that I mailed most places with IP practices already). really regret not going to PLIP but seeing how things are likely i would have struck out there too

at this point I assume I am not getting a legal job. cant really do public interest or whatever bc my resume screams IP. probably going to go into *distribution* to pay off law school loans.

still mass mailing tho


I think that rather than just continuing to mass mail, I would target a handful of your favorite/top firms and send tailored cover letters. Look up alumni at the firm that can at least make sure that recruiting looks over your resume

I know you say you got good feedback from mock interviews, but it seems like something went wrong b/c you say your resume is up to par and you seem to have gotten a good number of screeners.

Try to see if anyone outside your career services can give you feedback about your interviewing skills - maybe an upperclassman you trust or preferably alumni/connection working at a firm you're interested in.

Don't give up and good luck!

PS: too much alcohol will just make you gain weight, and you want to look your best at interviews! lol

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I think that rather than just continuing to mass mail, I would target a handful of your favorite/top firms and send tailored cover letters. Look up alumni at the firm that can at least make sure that recruiting looks over your resume

I know you say you got good feedback from mock interviews, but it seems like something went wrong b/c you say your resume is up to par and you seem to have gotten a good number of screeners.

Try to see if anyone outside your career services can give you feedback about your interviewing skills - maybe an upperclassman you trust or preferably alumni/connection working at a firm you're interested in.

Don't give up and good luck!

PS: too much alcohol will just make you gain weight, and you want to look your best at interviews! lol


i havent given up yet. I'm still mass mailing and networking. I'm just assuming the worst at this point because <statistically> the fact that I don't have even a single CB at this point is a really bad sign and means that more likely than not I'll be jobless regardless of whether I mass mail another 300 firms or not. I just don't want to be suddenly super depressed right before finals.

I actually did tailor my cover letter and target my top choice firms - mostly IP boutiques. This was around july. Unanimous dings all around.

although its not out of the question I doubt there is something wrong with my interview skills because i have interviewed many times before and had success and actually interviewed others for positions, etc. On top of that, I have practiced interviewing in front of a mirror before OCI and had 3 mock interviews and besides fixing a few minor issues there was nothing really to adjust.

honestly i think i'm in a really weird hole where my particular degree/background is not what IP boutiques / patent prosecuting big law firms look for or even consider (despite my experience as an inventor and writing patents). However, my background is so specialized and whatnot that general practice firms are possibly wary of me - on top of it my grades arent stellar and i wasnt on LR.

what unsettling to me is seeing nondescript non-patent bar eligible KJD's with similar/worse grades getting CBs. Not trying to demean anyone btw.

as for my drinking. I really cant go to sleep sober with the really big thought in my head "WHY TF DO I NOT HAVE A SINGLE CB yet". luckily i have a very fast metabolism and find time to exercise regularly so it hasnt had an effect on my appearance (yet)

only thing I can do at this point is mail but I sure as hell am not going to "hope" anymore

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:42 pm

Also a T14 transfer from T4. I've had 3 callbacks, 2 from oci and 1 from massmailing, and I got dinged by the OCI callbacks. Just waiting to hear from the MM callback. It doesn't look good for me. I've massmailed over 280 firms, ideally would love to work in SoCal, but the market is so small I'm not even getting a bite from midlaw firms. Sucks. Anyone know what the best route is in order to have hope for biglaw in the future? Should I do a judicial externship? Work for DA? Small shitlaw firm? Which would put me in best position for 3l oci and thereafter? Of course assuming I don't get dinged from those either. In addition, I got an informational interview coming up. Anyone every have luck with those?

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:Also a T14 transfer from T4. I've had 3 callbacks, 2 from oci and 1 from massmailing, and I got dinged by the OCI callbacks. Just waiting to hear from the MM callback. It doesn't look good for me. I've massmailed over 280 firms, ideally would love to work in SoCal, but the market is so small I'm not even getting a bite from midlaw firms. Sucks. Anyone know what the best route is in order to have hope for biglaw in the future? Should I do a judicial externship? Work for DA? Small shitlaw firm? Which would put me in best position for 3l oci and thereafter? Of course assuming I don't get dinged from those either. In addition, I got an informational interview coming up. Anyone every have luck with those?


Interested as well.. If I cant get a biglaw SA, what do I do? Try to work for a judge? I don't even know when those applications are due. Jesus

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also a T14 transfer from T4. I've had 3 callbacks, 2 from oci and 1 from massmailing, and I got dinged by the OCI callbacks. Just waiting to hear from the MM callback. It doesn't look good for me. I've massmailed over 280 firms, ideally would love to work in SoCal, but the market is so small I'm not even getting a bite from midlaw firms. Sucks. Anyone know what the best route is in order to have hope for biglaw in the future? Should I do a judicial externship? Work for DA? Small shitlaw firm? Which would put me in best position for 3l oci and thereafter? Of course assuming I don't get dinged from those either. In addition, I got an informational interview coming up. Anyone every have luck with those?


Interested as well.. If I cant get a biglaw SA, what do I do? Try to work for a judge? I don't even know when those applications are due. Jesus


I tried hard to set myself up for 3L OCI and get solid grades but the odds being slim, I decided to slow down and slap on a second degree thru the dual degree program (greater debt thof unless scholly is available). This bought another round at the equivalent of 2L OCI with an improved and marketable skillset. Anecdotal evidence, but worked for me.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:55 am

I'm a T14 transfer who didn't get an offer in my target market until October. Keep hustling and good luck!

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby cjw564 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also a T14 transfer from T4. I've had 3 callbacks, 2 from oci and 1 from massmailing, and I got dinged by the OCI callbacks. Just waiting to hear from the MM callback. It doesn't look good for me. I've massmailed over 280 firms, ideally would love to work in SoCal, but the market is so small I'm not even getting a bite from midlaw firms. Sucks. Anyone know what the best route is in order to have hope for biglaw in the future? Should I do a judicial externship? Work for DA? Small shitlaw firm? Which would put me in best position for 3l oci and thereafter? Of course assuming I don't get dinged from those either. In addition, I got an informational interview coming up. Anyone every have luck with those?


Interested as well.. If I cant get a biglaw SA, what do I do? Try to work for a judge? I don't even know when those applications are due. Jesus


I tried hard to set myself up for 3L OCI and get solid grades but the odds being slim, I decided to slow down and slap on a second degree thru the dual degree program (greater debt thof unless scholly is available). This bought another round at the equivalent of 2L OCI with an improved and marketable skillset. Anecdotal evidence, but worked for me.


Second this approach. I know someone at ccn and another person at HLS who got a leave of absence by bribing their doctor for some psych diagnosis so they can redo 2L and most importantly, 2L OCI. Both got V50 firms that way.

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Re: Beginning to lose hope...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:12 am

cjw564 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also a T14 transfer from T4. I've had 3 callbacks, 2 from oci and 1 from massmailing, and I got dinged by the OCI callbacks. Just waiting to hear from the MM callback. It doesn't look good for me. I've massmailed over 280 firms, ideally would love to work in SoCal, but the market is so small I'm not even getting a bite from midlaw firms. Sucks. Anyone know what the best route is in order to have hope for biglaw in the future? Should I do a judicial externship? Work for DA? Small shitlaw firm? Which would put me in best position for 3l oci and thereafter? Of course assuming I don't get dinged from those either. In addition, I got an informational interview coming up. Anyone every have luck with those?


Interested as well.. If I cant get a biglaw SA, what do I do? Try to work for a judge? I don't even know when those applications are due. Jesus


I tried hard to set myself up for 3L OCI and get solid grades but the odds being slim, I decided to slow down and slap on a second degree thru the dual degree program (greater debt thof unless scholly is available). This bought another round at the equivalent of 2L OCI with an improved and marketable skillset. Anecdotal evidence, but worked for me.


Second this approach. I know someone at ccn and another person at HLS who got a leave of absence by bribing their doctor for some psych diagnosis so they can redo 2L and most importantly, 2L OCI. Both got V50 firms that way.


You mean.. they did bad at OCI, then took a YEAR off just to go through again? I don't think I'd burn a year just to have an SA...



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