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helped

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:28 pm

thank you
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:50 am

would like to know asap. thanks for any help.

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rpupkin

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:Can you ask for more money prior to accepting without risking having the offer rescinded?

No. If you ask for more money, there is some risk that they'll just offer the job to someone else who is willing to take it for $75K. You can't eliminate risk here.

But if you're willing to take the risk, go ahead and ask for more money.

I'll add that I think you're overestimating the entry-level market pay for these types of jobs. While it may be higher than $75K, there's no way that the typical midlaw firm pays double that. If you asked me off the the top of my head what the typical mid-law firm pays a first-year in a major market, I would guess $90K. Some firms pay more, and some (as you're finding) pay less.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:20 am

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can you ask for more money prior to accepting without risking having the offer rescinded?

No. If you ask for more money, there is some risk that they'll just offer the job to someone else who is willing to take it for $75K. You can't eliminate risk here.

But if you're willing to take the risk, go ahead and ask for more money.

I'll add that I think you're overestimating the entry-level market pay for these types of jobs. While it may be higher than $75K, there's no way that the typical midlaw firm pays double that. If you asked me off the the top of my head what the typical mid-law firm pays a first-year in a major market, I would guess $90K. Some firms pay more, and some (as you're finding) pay less.


downtown NYC/LA/Chicago market midsize (100 attorney) law firm. I am not saying these firms pay 180K. It was an exaggeration. But almost all the firms I've interviewed, other than this one, pays at least 100K. I think 75K would be a small firm pay in a major market. Anyway rather than emailing, do you think I can ask for it over the phone and then if they say no just accept it then? This would ensure I don't get my offer rescinded. Also would it be a bad career move to continue interviewing and bail as soon as better offer comes along? If this is my intention would it be better to just take the original offer and look elsewhere?

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:54 am

I've only negotiated in non-legal jobs (prior to law school), but you need to find data about what peer firms pay and make your case.

I'd call, not email, and just explain that you love the firm and want to accept but the compensation structure is lower than peer firms (cite to firms and what they're paying), especially in a high cost of living area. Then ask if there is any possibility for the salary to be reconsidered to be in line with the market for mid-sized law firms in your area. If they say there is not, be very polite about it.

Negotiating is a lot easier with leverage (a current salary/ another offer), but you can still do it without. I'd seek out actual data about what comparable firms pay in your market.

You don't eliminate the risk that they could decide you are "no longer a fit," but I like to hope they'd be open to you negotiating.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Negotiating is a lot easier with leverage (a current salary/ another offer), but you can still do it without. I'd seek out actual data about what comparable firms pay in your market.

I'd take the offer at $75k and start looking for a lateral position immediately, if not only for an offer of higher pay to leverage a raise at your current firm. They'll likely try to match just to keep you.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:07 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Negotiating is a lot easier with leverage (a current salary/ another offer), but you can still do it without. I'd seek out actual data about what comparable firms pay in your market.

I'd take the offer at $75k and start looking for a lateral position immediately, if not only for an offer of higher pay to leverage a raise at your current firm. They'll likely try to match just to keep you.


This is what I was thinking. Is it not worth asking for more pay if you plan to keep looking? I have some good leads but they arent guaranteed.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is what I was thinking. Is it not worth asking for more pay if you plan to keep looking? I have some good leads but they arent guaranteed.

It's not worth the risk of having them rescind the offer. The offer is what it is: $75k for 2000 billables. You either accept or reject. If you ask for more money, you're counter-offering and risk blowing up the deal altogether (this is first-year contracts). They might just say "nah, take it or leave it," but they may also feel like you're not worth the hassle of negotiating and go with another candidate who's willing to work for pennies.

Now, if you had another offer at say, $100k, you might be able to go in and say "Listen, I got an offer/opportunity for slightly more. I really like this firm, is there any way you could match?" But you don't. You could lie, but that's a huge risk and you'd have to eat your shoe if they said "Take that offer then; we can't match." If you took the job anyway after saying something like that, they'd think you're crazy, not a good negotiator (i.e., incompetent), or a liar (even worse).

Any job is better than no job. $75k is manageable even in NYC. Just budget, pay your min. loans, and hustle for a lateral position.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:02 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is what I was thinking. Is it not worth asking for more pay if you plan to keep looking? I have some good leads but they arent guaranteed.

It's not worth the risk of having them rescind the offer. The offer is what it is: $75k for 2000 billables. You either accept or reject. If you ask for more money, you're counter-offering and risk blowing up the deal altogether (this is first-year contracts). They might just say "nah, take it or leave it," but they may also feel like you're not worth the hassle of negotiating and go with another candidate who's willing to work for pennies.

Now, if you had another offer at say, $100k, you might be able to go in and say "Listen, I got an offer/opportunity for slightly more. I really like this firm, is there any way you could match?" But you don't. You could lie, but that's a huge risk and you'd have to eat your shoe if they said "Take that offer then; we can't match." If you took the job anyway after saying something like that, they'd think you're crazy, not a good negotiator (i.e., incompetent), or a liar (even worse).

Any job is better than no job. $75k is manageable even in NYC. Just budget, pay your min. loans, and hustle for a lateral position.


So it's completely fine to quit after a month, or even a week, when a better offer comes along right?

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:10 pm

Don't want to derail the thread, but I have a related question.

Can an incoming 2L summer associate going into Biglaw negotiate for extras of any kind? I find it hard to imagine it is never done, but I'm wondering, if possible, what can be negotiated for and how to approach it.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby runinthefront » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't want to derail the thread, but I have a related question.

Can an incoming 2L summer associate going into Biglaw negotiate for extras of any kind? I find it hard to imagine it is never done, but I'm wondering, if possible, what can be negotiated for and how to approach it.

Just lol
Last edited by runinthefront on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is what I was thinking. Is it not worth asking for more pay if you plan to keep looking? I have some good leads but they arent guaranteed.

It's not worth the risk of having them rescind the offer. The offer is what it is: $75k for 2000 billables. You either accept or reject. If you ask for more money, you're counter-offering and risk blowing up the deal altogether (this is first-year contracts). They might just say "nah, take it or leave it," but they may also feel like you're not worth the hassle of negotiating and go with another candidate who's willing to work for pennies.

Now, if you had another offer at say, $100k, you might be able to go in and say "Listen, I got an offer/opportunity for slightly more. I really like this firm, is there any way you could match?" But you don't. You could lie, but that's a huge risk and you'd have to eat your shoe if they said "Take that offer then; we can't match." If you took the job anyway after saying something like that, they'd think you're crazy, not a good negotiator (i.e., incompetent), or a liar (even worse).

Any job is better than no job. $75k is manageable even in NYC. Just budget, pay your min. loans, and hustle for a lateral position.


So it's completely fine to quit after a month, or even a week, when a better offer comes along right?

Not sure if OP because of anon, but:

It's happened at my firm a couple of times since I've been here. Employers get kind of mad, but you really can't hate on someone for taking a better opportunity when it comes along. Partners understand this of associates, and if they can't match the new offer then their hands are tied anyway. Now, it's up to you whether an extra $5-10k is worth potentially burning a bridge. However, if you get a $180k offer a week after accepting the $75k offer... get ready to clean out your desk.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Good Guy Gaud » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't want to derail the thread, but I have a related question.

Can an incoming 2L summer associate going into Biglaw negotiate for extras of any kind? I find it hard to imagine it is never done, but I'm wondering, if possible, what can be negotiated for and how to approach it.


What are you trying to get? Parking privileges?

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
So it's completely fine to quit after a month, or even a week, when a better offer comes along right?

It's "completely fine" in a legal sense. It's at will employment; you can quit whenever you'd like.

But there could be other consequences. When you apply for jobs, you're going to have to disclose that you are currently working at this law firm. When asked why you are looking to leave after only one month, what is your answer going to be? You can say "higher pay," but then the place you're interviewing with will be less inclined to hire you. No one wants to hire a lawyer who is looking to leave as soon as they start. So in one sense, you'll actually make yourself less marketable by accepting a job offer and then immediately turning around and looking for work elsewhere.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:24 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
So it's completely fine to quit after a month, or even a week, when a better offer comes along right?

It's "completely fine" in a legal sense. It's at will employment; you can quit whenever you'd like.

But there could be other consequences. When you apply for jobs, you're going to have to disclose that you are currently working at this law firm. When asked why you are looking to leave after only one month, what is your answer going to be? You can say "higher pay," but then the place you're interviewing with will be less inclined to hire you. No one wants to hire a lawyer who is looking to leave as soon as they start. So in one sense, you'll actually make yourself less marketable by accepting a job offer and then immediately turning around and looking for work elsewhere.

Well yeah, of course. But the point is if you do get a better offer you don't not take it, but you better be damn sure you'll be there for a couple of years. Too many moves within a short period of time can signify issues.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:36 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
So it's completely fine to quit after a month, or even a week, when a better offer comes along right?

It's "completely fine" in a legal sense. It's at will employment; you can quit whenever you'd like.

But there could be other consequences. When you apply for jobs, you're going to have to disclose that you are currently working at this law firm. When asked why you are looking to leave after only one month, what is your answer going to be? You can say "higher pay," but then the place you're interviewing with will be less inclined to hire you. No one wants to hire a lawyer who is looking to leave as soon as they start. So in one sense, you'll actually make yourself less marketable by accepting a job offer and then immediately turning around and looking for work elsewhere.

Well yeah, of course. But the point is if you do get a better offer you don't not take it, but you better be damn sure you'll be there for a couple of years. Too many moves within a short period of time can signify issues.


Thanks for the heads up guys. I created another similar thread not related to salary negotiating but about this firming wanting an answer right away. When they heard 75K in midsize firm in downtown NYC/LA/Chicago with 2K billable hours, people generally all said this,

"Take it and keep looking / interviewing. They sound terrible and you should keep at it as if you don't have a job, but this at least gives you a safety net. A safety net full of vileness and horror, but a net nonetheless."


While I am interviewing I would not be telling people I am currently working at this firm.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:43 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can you ask for more money prior to accepting without risking having the offer rescinded?

No. If you ask for more money, there is some risk that they'll just offer the job to someone else who is willing to take it for $75K. You can't eliminate risk here.

But if you're willing to take the risk, go ahead and ask for more money.

I'll add that I think you're overestimating the entry-level market pay for these types of jobs. While it may be higher than $75K, there's no way that the typical midlaw firm pays double that. If you asked me off the the top of my head what the typical mid-law firm pays a first-year in a major market, I would guess $90K. Some firms pay more, and some (as you're finding) pay less.


I dont know which midsize major market firms you're looking at... Even in Seattle (where market rate is much lower) firms with 50 attys pay over 100k, (most 120, 130).

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:46 pm

Size isn't the only determinant of pay.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby landshoes » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:53 pm

The reason you're getting different answers might be because in a lot of markets, there are firms that are smaller but still substantially connected to the broader Biglaw legal market in that city. In Chicago, at least, it's hard to meet a mid-law attorney at a well-respected firm who doesn't have friends/schoolmates at firms like Sidley, Winston, Jenner, etc. It doesn't seem like that is nearly as much of an issue in New York City, and I have no clue about LA.

This firm doesn't really sound well respected, but I don't really know that and I'm kind of reluctant to substitute my judgment for your own, given how much more you know about the scenario than we do.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby misterjames » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:08 pm

OP, is this an insurance defense firm? I can't imagine any other firm marketing themselves as midsize with a 2000 billable requirement at only $75k. That really does sound obscene. Having looked at a lot of actual midsize firms in NYC recently, the lowest I've seen is $90k for entry level. Even if an insurance defense firm has ~100 attorneys, it's not really midsize in the sense that most people mean or think, where you have traditional big firm work but less cost.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:While I am interviewing I would not be telling people I am currently working at this firm.

That's a terrible idea. You want the firms you are interviewing with to think that you're unemployed? Then you'll have to lie about what you've been doing for x months. Do not do this. Put down the firm on your resume and show other firms that you are getting experience and are hirable. If you put list that firm, they will not reach out to them because you currently work there.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby rpupkin » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I dont know which midsize major market firms you're looking at... Even in Seattle (where market rate is much lower) firms with 50 attys pay over 100k, (most 120, 130).

Huh? Please identify those firms. I'm familiar with the Seattle market and what you write is not true for most firms.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:35 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While I am interviewing I would not be telling people I am currently working at this firm.

That's a terrible idea. You want the firms you are interviewing with to think that you're unemployed? Then you'll have to lie about what you've been doing for x months. Do not do this. Put down the firm on your resume and show other firms that you are getting experience and are hirable. If you put list that firm, they will not reach out to them because you currently work there.


ive only been out of work for two months. what im hoping for is 2 interviews I recently had turn into a CB.

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:36 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: how do you ask for higher pay after being offered?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:39 pm

It's a crappy salary but there are lots of firms even in major markets that pay crappy salaries. "Too low" is going to depend entirely on you and your options and what you're willing to take.



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