They Said...

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yogotti

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They Said...

Postby yogotti » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:28 am

They said...
do well in your first year
They said...
be in the top 10% of your class
They said...
get on law review
They said...
get some legal experience
They said...
go to receptions and mixers, get to know people
They said...
you will do fine
They said...
your experience is a good thing
They said...
interview in geographically diverse areas
They said...
do screeners with all the firms you can

So, I did. 23 screeners and two call backs later, bubkus. Now, I am facing the prospect of busting my tail on law review with all these people who have their future lined up. Me? Scratching and clawing. Hell, I didn't even get a callback from the firm I have worked for part time for the last year and a half.

Thanks, law school.

AZ123

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Re: They Said...

Postby AZ123 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:40 am

It's still early. Keep hustling, keep mass mailing. You have good grades, so you're still in a good position. Maybe do a mock interview or two to see if there is anything with your interviewing you can improve. Just keep sending out apps and something will work out, especially as other people start to turn down offers in the next few weeks.

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Re: They Said...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:43 am

yogotti wrote:They said...
do well in your first year
They said...
be in the top 10% of your class
They said...
get on law review
They said...
get some legal experience
They said...
go to receptions and mixers, get to know people
They said...
you will do fine
They said...
your experience is a good thing
They said...
interview in geographically diverse areas
They said...
do screeners with all the firms you can

So, I did. 23 screeners and two call backs later, bubkus. Now, I am facing the prospect of busting my tail on law review with all these people who have their future lined up. Me? Scratching and clawing. Hell, I didn't even get a callback from the firm I have worked for part time for the last year and a half.

Thanks, law school.


You may not get biglaw at this point, but you will be gainfully employed with a decent gig with that background. Don't worry and keep hustling.

gregfootball2001

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Re: They Said...

Postby gregfootball2001 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:03 am

yogotti wrote:They said...
do well in your first year
They said...
be in the top 10% of your class
They said...
get on law review
They said...
get some legal experience
They said...
go to receptions and mixers, get to know people
They said...
you will do fine
They said...
your experience is a good thing
They said...
interview in geographically diverse areas
They said...
do screeners with all the firms you can

So, I did. 23 screeners and two call backs later, bubkus. Now, I am facing the prospect of busting my tail on law review with all these people who have their future lined up. Me? Scratching and clawing. Hell, I didn't even get a callback from the firm I have worked for part time for the last year and a half.

Thanks, law school.

They said...
massmail, because OCI can be a crapshoot. They weren't kidding.

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Re: They Said...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:29 am

I don't mean to kick you while you're down, OP, but expecting to just be handed a job through OCI unless you have great grades at a T6 is not a smart play at all. There are so many factors beyond grades that affect OCI prospects at schools further down the rankings (whether you have credible ties to the market(s) you're targeting, whether you're targeting a practice area the firm is recruiting for, etc.) that you need to be strategic about the job search both relating to and outside of OCI, and you need(ed) to start early.

I started massmailing in June and started talking on the phone/getting coffee with/getting lunch with attorneys in my target market and practice area of interest at the start of second semester 1L year. I ensured that I knew (i.e., had talked to) at least one person at every firm I interviewed with at OCI before OCI began and that I could enhance my massmailing by getting attorneys at the firm to forward my materials to recruiting in conjunction with my direct applications.

I still think I played it dangerously because I basically ignored NYC but I was able to get multiple offers in a competitive major market, including from a V20, despite only having decent grades (and no law review) at a decent school. It's not too late - reach out to alums and see if they can send your app directly to recruiting on your behalf and expand your search to any markets you have ties to/would be willing to work in. Good luck.

1styearlateral

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Re: They Said...

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:40 am

So many useless and whiny threads lately. Why are people surprised that jobs are hard to come by when they knew this going into law school? Too many over-saturated markets with too few job openings. It's no secret that whether you go to a T14 or a TTT school, getting a job is mostly luck; going to a higher ranked school and doing well only marginally increases your odds. Top 10%, LR, etc. will not guarantee anyone a job.

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zhenders

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Re: They Said...

Postby zhenders » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:54 am

Find interview coaching immediately, too. Wherever you are, if the rest of your LR is doing fine and it's actually just you, then face the possibility that it's actually you, and take all necessary steps to identify what's going on there. Certainly it could just be luck of the draw -- but if the only genuine variable between you and them is the interview process, look into that.

yogotti

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Re: They Said...

Postby yogotti » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:59 am

TLSers, love y'all. Yes, maybe my expectations were unrealistic. Yes, I am working on mass mail and other connections. It is all a ride, and it has some serious ups and downs. I enjoy the anonymity of the forum to vent some ugly feels.

I get it. The it's not them, it's me. More hustle, less whine. It just sucks to see yourself for who you are and not who you thought, maybe, you could be.

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star fox

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Re: They Said...

Postby star fox » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:05 pm

OCI sucks and will kill your self confidence. But you can't give up now.

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jchiles

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Re: They Said...

Postby jchiles » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:15 pm

It's also entirely possible that it's not your interviewing skills/you at all, but you owe it to yourself to get some feedback and honestly evaluate what you've been doing just in case there is something you could do better moving forward.

It sucks but keep in mind you are probably two years away from starting a job. You've got plenty of time to figure it out.

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nealric

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Re: They Said...

Postby nealric » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:53 pm

1styearlateral wrote: It's no secret that whether you go to a T14 or a TTT school, getting a job is mostly luck; going to a higher ranked school and doing well only marginally increases your odds.


This is demonstrably false. Nearly everyone who does well at a T6 gets at least one biglaw offer- with just a few outliers who may have had either extraordinarily bad luck or have a personality that turns off interviewers. Nearly everyone who attends a TTT does not get a biglaw offer, even with good grades, with a few outliers who have stellar grades and personalities.

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rpupkin

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Re: They Said...

Postby rpupkin » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:00 pm

1styearlateral wrote: It's no secret that whether you go to a T14 or a TTT school, getting a job is mostly luck; going to a higher ranked school and doing well only marginally increases your odds.

It's no secret that whether you have a 155 LSAT or a 175 LSAT, getting into Columbia is mostly luck; getting a higher LSAT score only marginally increases your odds.

andythefir

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Re: They Said...

Postby andythefir » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:01 pm

I am now 2 years out of law school and am now heading to a very "prestigious" gig lots of folks on this site aspire to get on the other side of biglaw. When I was in law school I interviewed with 40ish firms in towns I had never been to. I struck out, unsurprisingly, and ended up at a top firm in my hometown. I've never hated my life more than when I was a summer in a firm. Stressed out more than any point in the rest of my life because they told me they would only keep 1 of 3 summers if business picked up. I was so consumed by getting an offer that I didn't look around and realize that 90+% of the attorneys there hated their lives, and the remaining 10% hated their jobs. A professor summed it up better than I could have: never forget, firm attorneys are highly compensated for the combination of stress and tedium.

I was, again unsurprisingly, no-offered and entered the 3L job search. In March of my 3L year I got a job in a rural DA's office, and I loved being a DA. Pay was solid, LRAP/PAYE/loan forgiveness negated loan/financial issues, cost of living was manageable. But much more importantly, I was (1) working towards something I really cared about and (2) doing things day-to-day that I loved-namely, trials. I had done 50 trials by the time my biglaw friends were 2nd chairing their first depositions (around the 1 year mark).

Long story short: don't forget what you went to law school to do. Every time they study it they find out that interest in big firms is massive during OCI season, regardless of whether students came to law school to work in a big firm. You are in the thick of the rat race, don't let it carry you from where you want to be.

1styearlateral

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Re: They Said...

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:58 pm

nealric wrote:This is demonstrably false. Nearly everyone who does well at a T6 gets at least one biglaw offer- with just a few outliers who may have had either extraordinarily bad luck or have a personality that turns off interviewers. Nearly everyone who attends a TTT does not get a biglaw offer, even with good grades, with a few outliers who have stellar grades and personalities.

I guess what I mean is that attending a T14 doesn't guaranty anyone a job, because you don't know where you're going to end up in your class. Isn't the TLS mantra "Bet on being median?" But I'm pretty sure I've read on here several times that going T14 as opposed to lower ranked T1 only moves the needle slightly. Too busy to search for an example but I'm sure it's not hard to find.

rpupkin wrote:It's no secret that whether you have a 155 LSAT or a 175 LSAT, getting into Columbia is mostly luck; getting a higher LSAT score only marginally increases your odds.

Does attending Columbia guaranty one a job? If it was sure thing then one only has to worry about doing well on the LSAT. We know that isn't the case. The journey from pre-law school to admitted attorney is a long one and requires attention the entire way.

Hikikomorist

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Re: They Said...

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:13 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
nealric wrote:This is demonstrably false. Nearly everyone who does well at a T6 gets at least one biglaw offer- with just a few outliers who may have had either extraordinarily bad luck or have a personality that turns off interviewers. Nearly everyone who attends a TTT does not get a biglaw offer, even with good grades, with a few outliers who have stellar grades and personalities.

I guess what I mean is that attending a T14 doesn't guaranty anyone a job, because you don't know where you're going to end up in your class. Isn't the TLS mantra "Bet on being median?" But I'm pretty sure I've read on here several times that going T14 as opposed to lower ranked T1 only moves the needle slightly. Too busy to search for an example but I'm sure it's not hard to find.

rpupkin wrote:It's no secret that whether you have a 155 LSAT or a 175 LSAT, getting into Columbia is mostly luck; getting a higher LSAT score only marginally increases your odds.

Does attending Columbia guaranty one a job? If it was sure thing then one only has to worry about doing well on the LSAT. We know that isn't the case. The journey from pre-law school to admitted attorney is a long one and requires attention the entire way.

You should be looking for data, which is also easy to find, not an example.

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pancakes3

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Re: They Said...

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:25 pm

ahem, "they" did not say interview in geographically diverse areas. if you neglected NYC in your bidding, you might have fucked up.

SFSpartan

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Re: They Said...

Postby SFSpartan » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:28 pm

"They" also said massmail your ass off until you find a job. That is still very good advice.

Hikikomorist

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Re: They Said...

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:29 pm

pancakes3 wrote:ahem, "they" did not say interview in geographically diverse areas. if you neglected NYC in your bidding, you might have fucked up.

Probably talking about career services, because TLS definitely would have told him to retake/not apply.

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Re: They Said...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:39 pm

pancakes3 wrote:ahem, "they" did not say interview in geographically diverse areas. if you neglected NYC in your bidding, you might have fucked up.


I am not a terrible (or great) interviewer, but I struck out completely in the major market my school feeds to, despite having good grades, having gone to receptions, and being at the "top" school in that market. Thank god for NYC. There are still spots in NYC so make sure you're massmailing NYC firms.

Winter is Coming

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Re: They Said...

Postby Winter is Coming » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:52 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
nealric wrote:This is demonstrably false. Nearly everyone who does well at a T6 gets at least one biglaw offer- with just a few outliers who may have had either extraordinarily bad luck or have a personality that turns off interviewers. Nearly everyone who attends a TTT does not get a biglaw offer, even with good grades, with a few outliers who have stellar grades and personalities.

I guess what I mean is that attending a T14 doesn't guaranty anyone a job, because you don't know where you're going to end up in your class. Isn't the TLS mantra "Bet on being median?" But I'm pretty sure I've read on here several times that going T14 as opposed to lower ranked T1 only moves the needle slightly. Too busy to search for an example but I'm sure it's not hard to find.

rpupkin wrote:It's no secret that whether you have a 155 LSAT or a 175 LSAT, getting into Columbia is mostly luck; getting a higher LSAT score only marginally increases your odds.

Does attending Columbia guaranty one a job? If it was sure thing then one only has to worry about doing well on the LSAT. We know that isn't the case. The journey from pre-law school to admitted attorney is a long one and requires attention the entire way.


Are you a law student? Heres the logic:

1.) Being median in your class is the most likely outcome when you enroll.
2) Being median at Columbia gives you an excellent shot at Biglaw, being median at T50 gives you almost no shot.

That's what people mean when the say: "Plan on being median and adjust your expectations accordingly." If you want Biglaw, you should enroll in a school where median gives you a good shot at it. Or go to a lower ranked school with a substantial scholarship so while you'll have less of a shot at Biglaw, you won't have substantial debt and will be able to work other kinds of legal jobs.

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Re: They Said...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:14 pm

MODEDIT

keep trying I'm on the same boat. They said a lot of things. They also said I'm lucky and I'm special and I'm smart.

Apparently. I'm smart enough to be in a T1 that is pretty shitty and ranks 40-50 on USNews.

bk1

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Re: They Said...

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:24 pm

I understand that things are stressful, but let's not joke about suicide.

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Re: They Said...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:MODEDIT
keep trying I'm on the same boat. They said a lot of things. They also said I'm lucky and I'm special and I'm smart.

Apparently. I'm smart enough to be in a T1 that is pretty shitty and ranks 40-50 on USNews.


...did you write this because you thought suggesting suicide, even jokingly, in a thread written by someone who is clearly upset would be funny? Helpful? I'm really just trying to understand why this post is here please help.

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Re: They Said...

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:38 pm

OP, your situation sucks and I'm sorry. Keep mass mailing and keep hustling, you should be able to land on your feet.

1styearlateral wrote:
nealric wrote:This is demonstrably false. Nearly everyone who does well at a T6 gets at least one biglaw offer- with just a few outliers who may have had either extraordinarily bad luck or have a personality that turns off interviewers. Nearly everyone who attends a TTT does not get a biglaw offer, even with good grades, with a few outliers who have stellar grades and personalities.

I guess what I mean is that attending a T14 doesn't guaranty anyone a job, because you don't know where you're going to end up in your class. Isn't the TLS mantra "Bet on being median?" But I'm pretty sure I've read on here several times that going T14 as opposed to lower ranked T1 only moves the needle slightly. Too busy to search for an example but I'm sure it's not hard to find.

rpupkin wrote:It's no secret that whether you have a 155 LSAT or a 175 LSAT, getting into Columbia is mostly luck; getting a higher LSAT score only marginally increases your odds.

Does attending Columbia guaranty one a job? If it was sure thing then one only has to worry about doing well on the LSAT. We know that isn't the case. The journey from pre-law school to admitted attorney is a long one and requires attention the entire way.


But yes, attending a T14 moves the needle ALOT. Look at the BL+FC stats in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=262376. Even if every T14 student wanted big law, then every one (save GULC) would give you at worst, better than a coin flip's chance. It is also obviously clear that not every student wants big law.

This is a stressful time of year, and certain people just get unlucky. But T14 schools do give median students an excellent chance of landing firm gigs if that's what they want.

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existentialcrisis

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Re: They Said...

Postby existentialcrisis » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:41 pm

^Accidental Anon, that was me.



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