Help Me Pick My Firm

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Latham NY v. Weil NY?

Interested in corporate, but don't know what group. I know Weil is well-regarded for BK... what about Latham? Anything other than cap markets? I liked people there better.


Latham' BK group is very good... not as good as Weil (especially for Debtor work) but darn good nevertheless.

Generally, Weil and Latham are so similar in terms of practice strength. Go with what feels better.

Thanks.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby cron1834 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:So, from an insider perspective, much of this is wrong.

First, you don't have to have a clerkship to come back after your summer. If you snagged a summer offer without a clerkship, you'll be able to come back. (It's rare because of the timeline and the caliber of candidate involved, but it's not a problem.)

Second, most people do not hate it. I'm sure some do, and they would be the ones who lateral. But the firm is still relatively small and promotes solely from within. That breeds a more collegial culture than many of the sweatshops out there.

Third, if you want objective data, there are midlevel surveys put out by AmLaw about associate satisfaction. W&C isn't the highest rated in DC, but it's very high up there.

As to the original question, I'd of course say W&C, but you should work wherever you think you'll make the best connections, most enjoy your summer, and get the highest quality work. I think W&C is the right answer for these reasons (and if you summer at W&C, you can always go to one of the other firms post-clerkship if you don't end up liking the firm), but you need to evaluate the people you've met and make that choice yourself.

Always good to hear from W&C Recruiting.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


This + Jenner, OMM, Gibson, W&C, Wilmer??


Same poster as above. W&C is the obvious choice, assuming you're not talking about white and case.

I doubt you, me, or most folks would enjoy working there, and the outward bound laterals I've met generally hated it, but that either matters to you or it doesn't. If that doesn't matter, pick W&C. If it does, I stand by the recommendation above: DC HQ's over the rest and pick your favorite flavor.


can you elaborate on why people have hated W&C?


Hard to say exactly. It's definitely an intense place, hard-driving, full of the best and the brightest who all know they're the best and the brightest. From my few outside interactions with W&C, I always got the impression they have some strong personalities and larger than life egos at play, but I can't speak from an inside perspective. Either way, it's hell of a fine start if you want to go AUSA someday. Not my thing; maybe it's yours.

Bear in mind, you'll have to clerk if you actually want to come back after the summer.



People hate it because you get paid below your peers most years to have to privilege to say you work at Williams and Connolly. Associates quickly realize that they chose prestige (in reality no one cares you're at W&C) over getting paid. I'd hate it too.


So, from an insider perspective, much of this is wrong.

First, you don't have to have a clerkship to come back after your summer. If you snagged a summer offer without a clerkship, you'll be able to come back. (It's rare because of the timeline and the caliber of candidate involved, but it's not a problem.)

Second, most people do not hate it. I'm sure some do, and they would be the ones who lateral. But the firm is still relatively small and promotes solely from within. That breeds a more collegial culture than many of the sweatshops out there.

Third, if you want objective data, there are midlevel surveys put out by AmLaw about associate satisfaction. W&C isn't the highest rated in DC, but it's very high up there.

As to the original question, I'd of course say W&C, but you should work wherever you think you'll make the best connections, most enjoy your summer, and get the highest quality work. I think W&C is the right answer for these reasons (and if you summer at W&C, you can always go to one of the other firms post-clerkship if you don't end up liking the firm), but you need to evaluate the people you've met and make that choice yourself.


The problem with W&C is that it isn't clear that the exit options are all that much greater than associates coming out of other elite firms and boutiques, and you get paid less. Also, the partnership compensation is typically (from what I've heard) much less than peer firms. That being said, if you're making a play for USAO or main justice, probably a smart bet.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


when was your LL cb?

+1

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


when was your LL cb?

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:29 am

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:37 am

What are people's thoughts on Skadden DC vs DC centered firms (Wilmer, Hogan)? Interested in lit.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:02 pm

ideas on when people typically should make decisions? by the 14 day mark or the 28 day?

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Glasseyes » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:ideas on when people typically should make decisions? by the 14 day mark or the 28 day?


It doesn't matter, but for the sake of the other firms you're keeping on the hook (and by extension the other kids who could use that callback or offer), you should accept the second you know where you want to go. No one deducts points for being eager.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What are people's thoughts on Skadden DC vs DC centered firms (Wilmer, Hogan)? Interested in lit.


All three are great probably great in different ways, so it might just depend on what you want. Hogan and Wilmer are both big offices; Skadden is more medium sized but positively diminutive compared to its NY office. i know someone who summered at Hogan DC, Skadden NY, and did touchbacks at Skadden DC and he said Hogan DC and Skadden NY were more similar than Skadden DC and Skadden NY, so make of that what you will. (He chose Hogan DC). Wilmer is a strong contender here, but make sure you get a full explanation of their comp structure cuz it looks kinda wonky from outside (you move up in steps rather than class year, which seems like an opportunity to pay you less). But money isn't everything. Do some second looks and try to feel out the culture of each firm and the vibe of the lit groups (ask about the clients and the nature of the cases, etc). All three are great opportunities for sure.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:50 pm

Ropes (Boston) v. Goodwin (Boston) for Corporate Work (specifically financial regulatory work). Also interested in any comparisons of culture.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What are people's thoughts on Skadden DC vs DC centered firms (Wilmer, Hogan)? Interested in lit.


All three are great probably great in different ways, so it might just depend on what you want. Hogan and Wilmer are both big offices; Skadden is more medium sized but positively diminutive compared to its NY office. i know someone who summered at Hogan DC, Skadden NY, and did touchbacks at Skadden DC and he said Hogan DC and Skadden NY were more similar than Skadden DC and Skadden NY, so make of that what you will. (He chose Hogan DC). Wilmer is a strong contender here, but make sure you get a full explanation of their comp structure cuz it looks kinda wonky from outside (you move up in steps rather than class year, which seems like an opportunity to pay you less). But money isn't everything. Do some second looks and try to feel out the culture of each firm and the vibe of the lit groups (ask about the clients and the nature of the cases, etc). All three are great opportunities for sure.

Thanks, this is very helpful.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:48 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


With those options, I wouldn't look beyond the DC-based firms for a lot of reasons. Covington is the prestige-conscious choice, though they've got a rep for forcing juniors to do FCPA work whether they want it or not and I rarely meet people that enjoy their time there (lots of laterals out). A&P is obviously a great firm in the abstract, but I wouldn't seek it out per se - it's a bit stodgy, old/white, kind of depressing, and their financials seem borderline weak. Hogan has better culture than either, comparable work, and slightly better pay (market bonuses across the board for 2000 hours). Covington, A&P, and WilmerHale all have shitty bonuses and in some cases (ahem, Wilmer) weird/weak comp structures. Aiming for a general litigation practice is probably a recipe for disappointment anywhere you go, so I'd choose based on which firm seems least awful by the most metrics. I'd do Hogan, especially for their insane data breach lit; your math might differ.

Regarding the other two: Cleary makes sense if you want to do antitrust. If not, don't bother. Kirkland is solid in general, but you'll have more flexibility at a DC HQ, and Kirkland's culture is very much love it or hate it (aggressive / free market [nothing's ever free] / eat what you kill, etc). Have fun


Curious what others thoughts are RE DC-based firms. My impression is Hogan is a step down from A&P/Covington... I liked Hogan a lot, but would love to hear others thoughts.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


With those options, I wouldn't look beyond the DC-based firms for a lot of reasons. Covington is the prestige-conscious choice, though they've got a rep for forcing juniors to do FCPA work whether they want it or not and I rarely meet people that enjoy their time there (lots of laterals out). A&P is obviously a great firm in the abstract, but I wouldn't seek it out per se - it's a bit stodgy, old/white, kind of depressing, and their financials seem borderline weak. Hogan has better culture than either, comparable work, and slightly better pay (market bonuses across the board for 2000 hours). Covington, A&P, and WilmerHale all have shitty bonuses and in some cases (ahem, Wilmer) weird/weak comp structures. Aiming for a general litigation practice is probably a recipe for disappointment anywhere you go, so I'd choose based on which firm seems least awful by the most metrics. I'd do Hogan, especially for their insane data breach lit; your math might differ.

Regarding the other two: Cleary makes sense if you want to do antitrust. If not, don't bother. Kirkland is solid in general, but you'll have more flexibility at a DC HQ, and Kirkland's culture is very much love it or hate it (aggressive / free market [nothing's ever free] / eat what you kill, etc). Have fun


Curious what others thoughts are RE DC-based firms. My impression is Hogan is a step down from A&P/Covington... I liked Hogan a lot, but would love to hear others thoughts.


Define "step down". That might be true for lit practices (or not; I'm not really aware of the differences) but most of the differences that do matter are practice group specific. Covington obviously crushes the others at white collar and FCPA work; Hogan dominates for privacy, healthcare, and medical devices (and its regulatory groups in general). All of these firms do a lot of things very well; it's not as easy to generalize as Vault makes it seem. Plenty of folks choose each of these firms (including Hogan) over the other two.

Alternate way to pick: Katyal vs Holder vs whoever famous works at A&P, choose your master

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:11 am

What do people think about Sidley firm-wide and the Houston office in particular? I'm considering the Houston office, but would it be crazy to pick that over a Houston big 3 firm (Baker Botts)? I like the idea of starting somewhere a bit smaller (~60 attorneys right now) and wonder whether I would get more substantive work. I'm interested in transactional work. I'm somewhat interested in tax, but that's not big at Sidley in Houston.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:04 pm

Asked and answered, thanks.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby rpupkin » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Offers from GDC (NYC), DPW (NYC), S&C (NYC), + Kellogg Huber (DC, 4 week program fine with splits)
Interested in lit generally, potentially appellate, and definitely doing Kellogg Huber.
I have an appellate clerkship lined up right after graduation.

If I'm interested in clerking on DC circuit, are there material differences between these firms (GDC, DPW, S&C all NYC) w/rt making me a stronger candidate?

No.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby star fox » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:13 pm

Never understood how people can go into such an existential crisis over decisions like this. You probably already know what you're going to do. Just do it already. Holding offers for the whole 28 days is nagl.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:09 pm

So I get that this has descended into circlejerk and this is dumb and everything, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Thinking litigation. Simpson v Cleary.

Leaning Simpson. I liked the people about equally. Simpson seems to have a slightly better general commercial lit practice (Band 2 v Band 3). But Cleary has slightly less facetime requirement and the people I met seemed a little more relaxed.

Is there any difference in exit options, QoL, mentoring, work, etc? Am I splitting hairs or is there a real difference in lit at the two firms?

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:21 pm

LeClairRyan v Reed Smith? Anyone have any thoughts on either?

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:11 pm

Offers from Latham, Sidley, and GDC, all DC.

I'm interested in appellate, but concerned I may not like it after a few years so I want some flexibility. GDC seems like the best, but I have heard that the bench of associates is so deep that it's nearly impossible to distinguish yourself (which causes pressure and longer hours).

Sidley gave off a "lifestyle firm" vibe that I liked (e.g. a partner talking about how he never works from home, never has, and has 5 kids and has coached little league). Wasn't sure how much to credit that though. Is it known for being more humane in DC?

I liked everyone at Latham, but their appellate practice is the least well known of the three. NALP says they have 2 tiers of partners too. Does that mean they have income partners, or how does that work?

Does anyone have insight into these firms?

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:24 pm

Milbank (NY) v. WilmerHale (NY)

More interested in litigation, no dead set however. Milbanks professional development seems great (milbank@harvard, rotations in first year) but really liked the people at both. Thanks!

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:23 pm

Skadden NY or Cravath?
Interested in transactional work.

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Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Joscellin » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Skadden NY or Cravath?
Interested in transactional work.


This question entirely depends on how you feel about the rotation system. Like it? Cravath. Ambivalent? Cravath. Hate it? Skadden.



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