Help Me Pick My Firm

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:49 pm

Well, one of the reasons I posted in this thread was to help me narrow it down, not to be told I needed to narrow it down. That I knew.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:54 pm

RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I would love some help.

NYC
Want to do litigation (interested now in a variety of things, including copyright/trademark, white collar, and general commercial--primary interest is just in being able to do a variety of litigation matters at the outset)

Options: Covington, Kirkland, Debevoise, Latham, Weil, Paul Weiss, Akin Gump, Cleary

While I know Kirkland is a good place for lit, I'm generally put off by the free market system/aggressive culture. I'm leaning toward Paul Weiss/Debevoise/Latham as my top options, atm.


This is an egregious NALP violation. Only allowed I think 5 open offers. Turn down firms you aren't going to. Don't let it come back and bite you in the ass.


No, it's not. I have a week from the receipt of my sixth offer to release one. With seven, I obviously have to release two.


Your post shows 8, no? Also, you are missing a comma.


Oh right. I was counting Cleary though the offer hasn't come in yet; I just didn't want to come add it later. Well, whatever. Read the NALP guidelines. My last two came in the last couple days. I'm good.


Smh... I promise you, you will not win any awards for having 7-8 outstanding offers, regardless of NALP rules. I trust that you have narrowed it down from the current list? Go ahead a let those firms know so the firm can potentially extend another offer. Not saying you need to make a decision or even rush your decision, but be honest with yourself...you aren't choosing between eight god forsaken firms.


You missed the person who has 10 offers outstanding, all DC.

Seriously, people. I had 6 at one point and it's NOT hard to cut a few after you've done callbacks. Surely you have SOME preferences.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:07 pm

I wouldn't drop any offers until you had accepted an offer and a firm has confirmed. Back when us old folks were recruiting in 2009, lots of firms pulled offers after Lehman failed. Some folks who had dropped offers ended up with no offers at all after the Lehman bomb went off.

I'm sure NALP has its rule, now let them enforce it.

That being said, I can't imagine taking more than a week or two to pick a firm. But until you do, keep your options as long as you can because sometimes crazy things do in fact happen.

RaceJudicata

Gold
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:51 pm

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby RaceJudicata » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:12 pm

I give up.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:36 pm

But, really, any insight on which firm is the best play for being a lit generalist in DC??

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


With those options, I wouldn't look beyond the DC-based firms for a lot of reasons. Covington is the prestige-conscious choice, though they've got a rep for forcing juniors to do FCPA work whether they want it or not and I rarely meet people that enjoy their time there (lots of laterals out). A&P is obviously a great firm in the abstract, but I wouldn't seek it out per se - it's a bit stodgy, old/white, kind of depressing, and their financials seem borderline weak. Hogan has better culture than either, comparable work, and slightly better pay (market bonuses across the board for 2000 hours). Covington, A&P, and WilmerHale all have shitty bonuses and in some cases (ahem, Wilmer) weird/weak comp structures. Aiming for a general litigation practice is probably a recipe for disappointment anywhere you go, so I'd choose based on which firm seems least awful by the most metrics. I'd do Hogan, especially for their insane data breach lit; your math might differ.

Regarding the other two: Cleary makes sense if you want to do antitrust. If not, don't bother. Kirkland is solid in general, but you'll have more flexibility at a DC HQ, and Kirkland's culture is very much love it or hate it (aggressive / free market [nothing's ever free] / eat what you kill, etc). Have fun

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


This + Jenner, OMM, Gibson, W&C, Wilmer??


Same poster as above. W&C is the obvious choice, assuming you're not talking about white and case.

I doubt you, me, or most folks would enjoy working there, and the outward bound laterals I've met generally hated it, but that either matters to you or it doesn't. If that doesn't matter, pick W&C. If it does, I stand by the recommendation above: DC HQ's over the rest and pick your favorite flavor.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:38 pm

Question for OP: how soon after your Ropes Chicago CB did you get your offer?

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


This + Jenner, OMM, Gibson, W&C, Wilmer??


Same poster as above. W&C is the obvious choice, assuming you're not talking about white and case.

I doubt you, me, or most folks would enjoy working there, and the outward bound laterals I've met generally hated it, but that either matters to you or it doesn't. If that doesn't matter, pick W&C. If it does, I stand by the recommendation above: DC HQ's over the rest and pick your favorite flavor.


can you elaborate on why people have hated W&C?

lawlorbust

Bronze
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby lawlorbust » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I wouldn't drop any offers until you had accepted an offer and a firm has confirmed. Back when us old folks were recruiting in 2009, lots of firms pulled offers after Lehman failed. Some folks who had dropped offers ended up with no offers at all after the Lehman bomb went off.

I'm sure NALP has its rule, now let them enforce it.

That being said, I can't imagine taking more than a week or two to pick a firm. But until you do, keep your options as long as you can because sometimes crazy things do in fact happen.


I simply cannot imagine being a person with such a risk-averse perspective on life. I feel truly sad for you.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:13 pm

Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


when was your LL cb?

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


This + Jenner, OMM, Gibson, W&C, Wilmer??


Same poster as above. W&C is the obvious choice, assuming you're not talking about white and case.

I doubt you, me, or most folks would enjoy working there, and the outward bound laterals I've met generally hated it, but that either matters to you or it doesn't. If that doesn't matter, pick W&C. If it does, I stand by the recommendation above: DC HQ's over the rest and pick your favorite flavor.


can you elaborate on why people have hated W&C?


Hard to say exactly. It's definitely an intense place, hard-driving, full of the best and the brightest who all know they're the best and the brightest. From my few outside interactions with W&C, I always got the impression they have some strong personalities and larger than life egos at play, but I can't speak from an inside perspective. Either way, it's hell of a fine start if you want to go AUSA someday. Not my thing; maybe it's yours.

Bear in mind, you'll have to clerk if you actually want to come back after the summer.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


Cahill, unless you want to do hedge fund work, in which case SRZ.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


Cahill, unless you want to do hedge fund work, in which case SRZ.


Cahill if you want to do junk bonds (High Yield Debt offerings). You might find it very interesting, but work could dry up if fed raises interest rates
Schulte if you want to do hedge fund work (mostly dealing with regulatory agencies. Could be boring if you don't like compliance type work, but great exit options.
Dechert if you want to do M&A and mostly deal with private equity clients (as opposed to large, publicly traded)
Linklaters if you want to work abroad or do mostly international work
Don't know much about HL or Winston for corporate

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:15 am

I'll jump in because I'm also considering Schulte and Cahill but also Willkie (Houston). Obviously, that's a pretty huge curveball. Primary concerns are exit options and job security. Willkie Houston is so new/small I just can't find a ton of information about it. Any input would be great, thanks!

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:07 am

Also looking for some advice. I'm looking to do transaction/corporate work (not M&A or PE or Cap Markets). Trying to balance between going to a firm that has a great work/life balance and some relative prestige.

I have four outstanding offers at the moment and I'm going to eliminate Cahill tomorrow I think because their work is too specialized---I'm not sure I want to be pigeon-holed in banking/finance.

The other three are Paul Hastings, Ropes & Gray and Latham (all NYC).

User avatar
nunumaster

Silver
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby nunumaster » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


Cahill, unless you want to do hedge fund work, in which case SRZ.


Cahill if you want to do junk bonds (High Yield Debt offerings). You might find it very interesting, but work could dry up if fed raises interest rates
Schulte if you want to do hedge fund work (mostly dealing with regulatory agencies. Could be boring if you don't like compliance type work, but great exit options.
Dechert if you want to do M&A and mostly deal with private equity clients (as opposed to large, publicly traded)
Linklaters if you want to work abroad or do mostly international work
Don't know much about HL or Winston for corporate
.
This guy is just literally reciting what each firm is good at, which OP should already know if they went through callbacks.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


This + Jenner, OMM, Gibson, W&C, Wilmer??


Same poster as above. W&C is the obvious choice, assuming you're not talking about white and case.

I doubt you, me, or most folks would enjoy working there, and the outward bound laterals I've met generally hated it, but that either matters to you or it doesn't. If that doesn't matter, pick W&C. If it does, I stand by the recommendation above: DC HQ's over the rest and pick your favorite flavor.


can you elaborate on why people have hated W&C?


Hard to say exactly. It's definitely an intense place, hard-driving, full of the best and the brightest who all know they're the best and the brightest. From my few outside interactions with W&C, I always got the impression they have some strong personalities and larger than life egos at play, but I can't speak from an inside perspective. Either way, it's hell of a fine start if you want to go AUSA someday. Not my thing; maybe it's yours.

Bear in mind, you'll have to clerk if you actually want to come back after the summer.



People hate it because you get paid below your peers most years to have to privilege to say you work at Williams and Connolly. Associates quickly realize that they chose prestige (in reality no one cares you're at W&C) over getting paid. I'd hate it too.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:31 pm

Latham NY v. Weil NY?

Interested in corporate, but don't know what group. I know Weil is well-regarded for BK... what about Latham? Anything other than cap markets? I liked people there better.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:20 pm

nunumaster wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Looking to jump in...

Market: NYC
Practice: Corporate

Firms: Dechert, Hogan Lovells, Cahill, Schulte, Winston, Linklaters


Cahill, unless you want to do hedge fund work, in which case SRZ.


Cahill if you want to do junk bonds (High Yield Debt offerings). You might find it very interesting, but work could dry up if fed raises interest rates
Schulte if you want to do hedge fund work (mostly dealing with regulatory agencies. Could be boring if you don't like compliance type work, but great exit options.
Dechert if you want to do M&A and mostly deal with private equity clients (as opposed to large, publicly traded)
Linklaters if you want to work abroad or do mostly international work
Don't know much about HL or Winston for corporate
.
This guy is just literally reciting what each firm is good at, which OP should already know if they went through callbacks.



Could anyone touch upon this a little further. I understand their strengths more or less.

But what about other factors such as the financial health of the firm? Exit options?

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


With those options, I wouldn't look beyond the DC-based firms for a lot of reasons. Covington is the prestige-conscious choice, though they've got a rep for forcing juniors to do FCPA work whether they want it or not and I rarely meet people that enjoy their time there (lots of laterals out). A&P is obviously a great firm in the abstract, but I wouldn't seek it out per se - it's a bit stodgy, old/white, kind of depressing, and their financials seem borderline weak. Hogan has better culture than either, comparable work, and slightly better pay (market bonuses across the board for 2000 hours). Covington, A&P, and WilmerHale all have shitty bonuses and in some cases (ahem, Wilmer) weird/weak comp structures. Aiming for a general litigation practice is probably a recipe for disappointment anywhere you go, so I'd choose based on which firm seems least awful by the most metrics. I'd do Hogan, especially for their insane data breach lit; your math might differ.

Regarding the other two: Cleary makes sense if you want to do antitrust. If not, don't bother. Kirkland is solid in general, but you'll have more flexibility at a DC HQ, and Kirkland's culture is very much love it or hate it (aggressive / free market [nothing's ever free] / eat what you kill, etc). Have fun


Following up on this one. I've heard the opposite about Hogan, that it's isolating because of the sprawling size, and that the merger hasn't exactly gone great. Feel like culture is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but I dunno. Hadn't heard the negatives about A&P that you list, although they seem believable, and sort of shitty for me to hear since I'm leaning toward them with similar choices of OP. Anyone else have A&P DC thoughts?

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


This + Jenner, OMM, Gibson, W&C, Wilmer??


Same poster as above. W&C is the obvious choice, assuming you're not talking about white and case.

I doubt you, me, or most folks would enjoy working there, and the outward bound laterals I've met generally hated it, but that either matters to you or it doesn't. If that doesn't matter, pick W&C. If it does, I stand by the recommendation above: DC HQ's over the rest and pick your favorite flavor.


can you elaborate on why people have hated W&C?


Hard to say exactly. It's definitely an intense place, hard-driving, full of the best and the brightest who all know they're the best and the brightest. From my few outside interactions with W&C, I always got the impression they have some strong personalities and larger than life egos at play, but I can't speak from an inside perspective. Either way, it's hell of a fine start if you want to go AUSA someday. Not my thing; maybe it's yours.

Bear in mind, you'll have to clerk if you actually want to come back after the summer.



People hate it because you get paid below your peers most years to have to privilege to say you work at Williams and Connolly. Associates quickly realize that they chose prestige (in reality no one cares you're at W&C) over getting paid. I'd hate it too.


So, from an insider perspective, much of this is wrong.

First, you don't have to have a clerkship to come back after your summer. If you snagged a summer offer without a clerkship, you'll be able to come back. (It's rare because of the timeline and the caliber of candidate involved, but it's not a problem.)

Second, most people do not hate it. I'm sure some do, and they would be the ones who lateral. But the firm is still relatively small and promotes solely from within. That breeds a more collegial culture than many of the sweatshops out there.

Third, if you want objective data, there are midlevel surveys put out by AmLaw about associate satisfaction. W&C isn't the highest rated in DC, but it's very high up there.

As to the original question, I'd of course say W&C, but you should work wherever you think you'll make the best connections, most enjoy your summer, and get the highest quality work. I think W&C is the right answer for these reasons (and if you summer at W&C, you can always go to one of the other firms post-clerkship if you don't end up liking the firm), but you need to evaluate the people you've met and make that choice yourself.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Latham NY v. Weil NY?

Interested in corporate, but don't know what group. I know Weil is well-regarded for BK... what about Latham? Anything other than cap markets? I liked people there better.


Latham' BK group is very good... not as good as Weil (especially for Debtor work) but darn good nevertheless.

Generally, Weil and Latham are so similar in terms of practice strength. Go with what feels better.

Anonymous User
Posts: 309317
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Help Me Pick My Firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on:

DC lit: Hogan, A&P, Covington, Kirkland, Cleary?


With those options, I wouldn't look beyond the DC-based firms for a lot of reasons. Covington is the prestige-conscious choice, though they've got a rep for forcing juniors to do FCPA work whether they want it or not and I rarely meet people that enjoy their time there (lots of laterals out). A&P is obviously a great firm in the abstract, but I wouldn't seek it out per se - it's a bit stodgy, old/white, kind of depressing, and their financials seem borderline weak. Hogan has better culture than either, comparable work, and slightly better pay (market bonuses across the board for 2000 hours). Covington, A&P, and WilmerHale all have shitty bonuses and in some cases (ahem, Wilmer) weird/weak comp structures. Aiming for a general litigation practice is probably a recipe for disappointment anywhere you go, so I'd choose based on which firm seems least awful by the most metrics. I'd do Hogan, especially for their insane data breach lit; your math might differ.

Regarding the other two: Cleary makes sense if you want to do antitrust. If not, don't bother. Kirkland is solid in general, but you'll have more flexibility at a DC HQ, and Kirkland's culture is very much love it or hate it (aggressive / free market [nothing's ever free] / eat what you kill, etc). Have fun


Following up on this one. I've heard the opposite about Hogan, that it's isolating because of the sprawling size, and that the merger hasn't exactly gone great. Feel like culture is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but I dunno. Hadn't heard the negatives about A&P that you list, although they seem believable, and sort of shitty for me to hear since I'm leaning toward them with similar choices of OP. Anyone else have A&P DC thoughts?


Eh, I'm at Hogan; none of that is accurate. The reason it's good to collect anecdotes in advance is to try and sift out the bullshit; not sure where you heard someone complaining about the 2010 merger in 2016, but whatever road bumps occurred in the immediate wake of the changeover are long gone. Bonuses are up and the summer class size is expanding; even with Brexit simmering, the financials look strong for 2016. Large firms aren't for everyone, but they're certainly not isolating unless you're abnormally shy or weird. You work closely with your practice group, and you'll know everyone in your summer class intimately anyway, which serves as a decent bridge across practice areas.

Since we're gossiping, I've heard Covington affectionately described as the "Fortress of Solitude" by associates due to the fact that no one talks to each other at work (and less charitably called the same thing by laterals who left). It's all just chatter anyway. If you got good vibes from A&P, go with it.



Return to “Legal Employment�

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.