Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:25k is meaningless as a monetary value in the overall scheme of associate pay, sure. But that's not what it's about - after all, none of us were expecting the bonus. What's frustrating (and I can't speak for all of us of course) is the principle:

Kirkland Houston pitched itself to many of us as a young, entrepreneurial office full of straight shooters and no bullshit, where hard work would be rewarded with above market compensation. You knew it wasn't a lifestyle firm but that wasn't the point - it's a place you go because you believe in your value, and that's reflected in firm culture, and the free market system: the best are rewarded for being the best.

What this bonus does is essentially double the summer pay for the women, regardless of performance. And suddenly all the guys are realizing that a lot of them busted their ass all summer, same as the women, but got comped a whole bunch less, and that isn't sitting right. Call it first world problems, I wouldn't blame you seeing it that way from the outside. But 25k after tax is a year of rent, so shrugging it off isn't so easy when you're looking at your colleagues who did exactly the same as you all summer walk away with that kind of money.


^^agree 100% with my colleague above. I already signed my offer but am exploring all of my options now. I like Houston but feel no need to be here.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:59 pm

Right2BearArms wrote:
TexasHays wrote:
Right2BearArms wrote:
TexasHays wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
TexasHays wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Why did Kirkland try to keep the summer associate signing bonus a secret?


SA signing bonus? Do tell.


Current summer here. There wasn't a signing bonus this year. The office did that for the first two summer classes in 2015 and 2016, but not this year.


Oh wow. I had no idea. Thanks for the heads up, going into OCI soon and they were one of my top picks.


This should have no effect on them being a top pick or not. No other firm in Houston gives signing bonuses to SAs, and KE is easily in the top tier of firms in Houston if you want to do corporate work. The SA bonus was a nice perk for those who got it, but in the grand scheme of the salary/benefits you will earn over a career / lifetime, it will not move the needle overall, and should not be a deciding factor in your choice.


Oh, absolutely. I didn't mean "were" as in they are no longer on the list. Just that any new information is good to know.


Makes sense, just making sure. Something like a signing bonus should only ever move the needle if you are 100% torn between two choices. General advice here, if you like a firm better than another, don't let something like a signing bonus sway you to a firm you like less than another. For all the people who loved KE and got a bonus as an SA, great for them, but I hope no one took an offer at KE over a firm they liked better because of the money. It just isn't a material number in the grand scheme of your lifetime earnings.

Back more on topic, I am not sure about some of the specific questions asked as I do not work at KE, but the KE Houston office seems to be as busy as it has ever been and they just moved into the prime spot in the newest building downtown. If anyone is worried about the viability / permanency of KE in Houston, I do not think that is a consideration you need to seriously consider. They are here to stay.


Are you an associate at KE? I am a midlevel associate in Houston (not KE), and to me those points mean very little to viability or reasons to go to KE. Moving to new office space doesn't mean you will stay, it is the same as signing a lease anywhere, every office does it and there is lots of availability for office space in Houston right now, so the new places are giving deals trying to fill space.

The question I have is how many equity partners has KE made in-house? How many do they have? I think they have made exactly 0 equity partners from people moving up as opposed to bringing people over as partner. That is what would make me nervous. That and the insane leverage. They have the highest leverage of any Houston firm by a lot, and that is not a good sign. They are at almost 100 associates and only have 13 equity partners!

Are they very busy? Yes. Do I work across from them all the time? Yes. Are your chances of making equity partner insanely low? Yes. If you don't care about making partner, more power to you. Go, work as many or more hours than the other top shops and get paid exactly the same. But you won't know if you care about making partner until you have been practicing for at least a couple years, so be careful severely limiting that before you even start.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby wiz » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Are you an associate at KE? I am a midlevel associate in Houston (not KE), and to me those points mean very little to viability or reasons to go to KE. Moving to new office space doesn't mean you will stay, it is the same as signing a lease anywhere, every office does it and there is lots of availability for office space in Houston right now, so the new places are giving deals trying to fill space.

The question I have is how many equity partners has KE made in-house? How many do they have? I think they have made exactly 0 equity partners from people moving up as opposed to bringing people over as partner. That is what would make me nervous. That and the insane leverage. They have the highest leverage of any Houston firm by a lot, and that is not a good sign. They are at almost 100 associates and only have 13 equity partners!

Are they very busy? Yes. Do I work across from them all the time? Yes. Are your chances of making equity partner insanely low? Yes. If you don't care about making partner, more power to you. Go, work as many or more hours than the other top shops and get paid exactly the same. But you won't know if you care about making partner until you have been practicing for at least a couple years, so be careful severely limiting that before you even start.

How many home-grown equity partners do you expect them to have when they've only been in town for 3 years? Makes sense that the partnership would be pulled from STB, other KE offices, and VE. Since associates don't make NSP until year 6 and SP until a couple years after that, only 5th year laterals could have even been considered for partner. And why would you even lateral as a midlevel or senior associate when you have a significantly better shot at partner at your home firm?

Office opened in 2014. First summer class was in 2015. I just don't see how many homegrown equity partners you're expecting when there's already selection bias in effect for strong midlevels and seniors staying put?

I agree that leverage is a factor to consider, but we're basically talking 10-15% partnership prospects for VE/BB vs. 3-5% for KE here. Not sure how much I would weigh that when considering a firm. Plus, if you're concerned about comp, KE has a rep for giving above-market bonuses, and their NSPs can make more than similarly-situated senior associates at other firms.

Going from 4 to 100 attorneys within 3 years is impressive, suggests that the office continues to go gangbusters, and very likely means that they are here to stay regardless of what the native firms keep saying about them.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby TexasHays » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:40 pm

I'm a guy, and I just don't see the issue about the signing bonus aimed towards women. As an SA, you are hired to work, generally not that hard, for a predetermined salary. Something they offer someone else, especially to promote diversity, should not factor in your anger of it.

The no-offer is a bit more disconcerting, but if its just 1 out of 27, maybe there's a reason? I'm not immediately set to blame the firm for that, but it does scare me a little. However, the bonuses to entice women to join doesn't bother me in the slightest.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby zhenders » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:45 pm

The extra money is the firm putting their money where their mouth is re: ensuring that the firm is diverse and genuinely inclusive. The men in the Houston office, if they're worth working with, should be excited about this, and proud that they will be working at a firm that recognizes that one of the best ways to show women and minorities that they are valued and that the firm wants to ensure their voices and experience stay at KE for the long term is to start by making a monetary commitment to it.

Instead of thinking about this as extra comp you didn't get, think about it as you working at a firm that is actively attempting to make the firm a better, more inclusive place to work.

If it pisses you off, it sounds like you may not be a good cultural fit anyhow. Chances are that in the partnership and associateship you each have dozens of folks you can relate to through both gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation. There is a fucking huge monetary value to having that kind of consistent comfort--and in particular that kind of commonality with the leaders of the firm--day in, day out and it's worth a hell of a lot more than 25k.

Be happy for your colleagues that they received an early indicator that they are valued, and instead of getting resentful, support them so that they can feel good about supporting you. That way, you can all make literal shit tons of money in the future.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:23 pm

Do you know if KE Houston is looking for 3Ls? Specifically female 3Ls looking to switch firms because they want to do corporate instead of lit?

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:25k is meaningless as a monetary value in the overall scheme of associate pay, sure. But that's not what it's about - after all, none of us were expecting the bonus. What's frustrating (and I can't speak for all of us of course) is the principle:

Kirkland Houston pitched itself to many of us as a young, entrepreneurial office full of straight shooters and no bullshit, where hard work would be rewarded with above market compensation. You knew it wasn't a lifestyle firm but that wasn't the point - it's a place you go because you believe in your value, and that's reflected in firm culture, and the free market system: the best are rewarded for being the best.

What this bonus does is essentially double the summer pay for the women, regardless of performance. And suddenly all the guys are realizing that a lot of them busted their ass all summer, same as the women, but got comped a whole bunch less, and that isn't sitting right. Call it first world problems, I wouldn't blame you seeing it that way from the outside. But 25k after tax is a year of rent, so shrugging it off isn't so easy when you're looking at your colleagues who did exactly the same as you all summer walk away with that kind of money.


^^agree 100% with my colleague above. I already signed my offer but am exploring all of my options now. I like Houston but feel no need to be here.


how did y'all not know the 25k for women thing before this week? my houston summer class (BB/LW/VE) all knew about it.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:38 am

Every Kirkland office already awards a $25k diversity fellowship to at least one SA each summer. They have for years and I've never heard anyone get bent out of shape about it because 1) the Kirkland summer program is a 10-week party that you're somehow paid to attend and 2) any decent, intelligent person in 2017 acknowledges the importance of diversity in the workplace. Heck, a lot of the largest corporations now explicitly require their outside counsel to meet diversity metrics before retention -- so even if you don't personally value diversity (it is Texas, after all), surely you can appreciate the financials behind the firm trying to diversify.

The fact that a bunch of (probably straight, white) male summers (likely from middling law schools because that office has scraped the bottom of the barrel for a number of reasons) are raging that their female colleagues made a couple thousand more post-tax dollars despite the fact that they had to endure the same number of extended lunches and burdensome all-expenses-paid social events is honestly indicative of what's wrong with big law.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:Every Kirkland office already awards a $25k diversity fellowship to at least one SA each summer. They have for years and I've never heard anyone get bent out of shape about it because 1) the Kirkland summer program is a 10-week party that you're somehow paid to attend and 2) any decent, intelligent person in 2017 acknowledges the importance of diversity in the workplace. Heck, a lot of the largest corporations now explicitly require their outside counsel to meet diversity metrics before retention -- so even if you don't personally value diversity (it is Texas, after all), surely you can appreciate the financials behind the firm trying to diversify.

The fact that a bunch of (probably straight, white) male summers (likely from middling law schools because that office has scraped the bottom of the barrel for a number of reasons) are raging that their female colleagues made a couple thousand more post-tax dollars despite the fact that they had to endure the same number of extended lunches and burdensome all-expenses-paid social events is honestly indicative of what's wrong with big law.


One diversity fellowship was given in the Houston office to an URM male. The women were given the same amount as him based on sex alone. So what about the other 5 URM men in the summer class? Are they not as valued? Well I can tell you the one no-offer was given to one of those URM males leaving just 4 URM males without being shown they are valued.

Lastly, those "middling law schools" you're referencing are: Harvard (1), Michigan (1), and Georgetown (2). Those are the schools the 4 URM males attend.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:13 am

-
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Right2BearArms » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Right2BearArms wrote:
TexasHays wrote:
Right2BearArms wrote:
TexasHays wrote:[quote="Anonymous UserMakes sense, just making sure. Something like a signing bonus should only ever move the needle if you are 100% torn between two choices. General advice here, if you like a firm better than another, don't let something like a signing bonus sway you to a firm you like less than another. For all the people who loved KE and got a bonus as an SA, great for them, but I hope no one took an offer at KE over a firm they liked better because of the money. It just isn't a material number in the grand scheme of your lifetime earnings.

Back more on topic, I am not sure about some of the specific questions asked as I do not work at KE, but the KE Houston office seems to be as busy as it has ever been and they just moved into the prime spot in the newest building downtown. If anyone is worried about the viability / permanency of KE in Houston, I do not think that is a consideration you need to seriously consider. They are here to stay.


Are you an associate at KE? No I am a midlevel associate in Houston (not KE), and to me those points mean very little to viability or reasons to go to KE. Moving to new office space doesn't mean you will stay, it is the same as signing a lease anywhere, every office does it and there is lots of availability for office space in Houston right now, so the new places are giving deals trying to fill space. Nowhere have I argued there are any specific reasons to go to KE. I have stated that it is not a dangerous choice given their growth and the amount of work they do. Moving into the newest building, availability of Class A space downtown or not, is not going to yield the kind of deals moving into Penzoil place or Houston Center would have. Also, their offices are stupid nice (their temp space was a dump). My point is, was and always will be, stability questions are silly. Its the same argument that people used against Latham when they started.

The question I have is how many equity partners has KE made in-house? How many do they have? I think they have made exactly 0 equity partners from people moving up as opposed to bringing people over as partner. That is what would make me nervous. That and the insane leverage. They have the highest leverage of any Houston firm by a lot, and that is not a good sign. They are at almost 100 associates and only have 13 equity partners! Ummm that's the KE model. Bottom heavy with a lot of non-equity "partners" who are 6-8 year attorneys who would be associates anywhere else. As others have pointed out, they have ben open in Houston just less than 3 years, which is not really a reasonable time line to judge. If there are no new partners in 3 more years, that is maybe an issue.

Are they very busy? Yes. Do I work across from them all the time? Yes. Are your chances of making equity partner insanely low? Yes. If you don't care about making partner, more power to you. Go, work as many or more hours than the other top shops and get paid exactly the same. But you won't know if you care about making partner until you have been practicing for at least a couple years, so be careful severely limiting that before you even start. Partner is difficult to make any every big law shop. Now, I will grant you that KE associates and especially the non-equity partners seem severely overworked at times. I think burnout and no longer caring to be an attorney are a bigger risk.


Responses above.

Please understand, I do not work at KE, and I have no skin in the game. I have ignored, deleted or turned down dozens of emails and calls about working there, and I know the type of signing bonus I would still get to move (it is less than it was a year ago, but still substantial).

My point in this thread is: (I) an SA signing bonus is not something on which to base a career decision on, (ii) KE Houston is not going to close anytime soon and (iii) if you really like KE, you should take your offer regardless of how much of a bonus you do or do not get.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Right2BearArms » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:Every Kirkland office already awards a $25k diversity fellowship to at least one SA each summer. They have for years and I've never heard anyone get bent out of shape about it because 1) the Kirkland summer program is a 10-week party that you're somehow paid to attend and 2) any decent, intelligent person in 2017 acknowledges the importance of diversity in the workplace. Heck, a lot of the largest corporations now explicitly require their outside counsel to meet diversity metrics before retention -- so even if you don't personally value diversity (it is Texas, after all), surely you can appreciate the financials behind the firm trying to diversify.

The fact that a bunch of (probably straight, white) male summers (likely from middling law schools because that office has scraped the bottom of the barrel for a number of reasons) are raging that their female colleagues made a couple thousand more post-tax dollars despite the fact that they had to endure the same number of extended lunches and burdensome all-expenses-paid social events is honestly indicative of what's wrong with big law.



This is amazing anon abuse. Several others have pointed out your post's flaws, but I will add one more. With regard to your ad hom wise crack at Texas, the great irony of your angst is that Houston is actually the most diverse metro area in the country, on par with or slightly ahead of NYC and LA.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Every Kirkland office already awards a $25k diversity fellowship to at least one SA each summer. They have for years and I've never heard anyone get bent out of shape about it because 1) the Kirkland summer program is a 10-week party that you're somehow paid to attend and 2) any decent, intelligent person in 2017 acknowledges the importance of diversity in the workplace. Heck, a lot of the largest corporations now explicitly require their outside counsel to meet diversity metrics before retention -- so even if you don't personally value diversity (it is Texas, after all), surely you can appreciate the financials behind the firm trying to diversify.

The fact that a bunch of (probably straight, white) male summers (likely from middling law schools because that office has scraped the bottom of the barrel for a number of reasons) are raging that their female colleagues made a couple thousand more post-tax dollars despite the fact that they had to endure the same number of extended lunches and burdensome all-expenses-paid social events is honestly indicative of what's wrong with big law.


One diversity fellowship was given in the Houston office to an URM male. The women were given the same amount as him based on sex alone. So what about the other 5 URM men in the summer class? Are they not as valued? Well I can tell you the one no-offer was given to one of those URM males leaving just 4 URM males without being shown they are valued.

Lastly, those "middling law schools" you're referencing are: Harvard (1), Michigan (1), and Georgetown (2). Those are the schools the 4 URM males attend.


I'm new to this conversation but

You gotta relax on this one. Not getting the 25k is really not a big deal.
Kirkland handed out diversity fellowships this year to basically anyone who applied and was a urm. My guess as to why the other urm guys didn't get one is that they didn't send in the application. Send a quick text to the other urm summers and see if they applied. If they did, I'd be shocked to learn that they didn't receive the fellowship. The firm spent a good bit of time this summer talking about how they've been increasing their diversity efforts and handed out the most diversity fellowships in firm history. They literally removed the page where they listed the names of people who got it each year from the firm website, (I'm assuming) because the list was too long.

If you think they don't value you, jump ship. Go try and see if any other firm will offer you a 25k bonus for coming in as a 3L. There's always Quinn (and I think they give out 35k). Also enjoy giving up the bar stipend and taking a salary advance from most other firms. Bottom line is over the time you're gonna be there, Kirkland is going to give you more money than most (possibly all) or your classmates will earn during the same period. Just chill dude.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Every Kirkland office already awards a $25k diversity fellowship to at least one SA each summer. They have for years and I've never heard anyone get bent out of shape about it because 1) the Kirkland summer program is a 10-week party that you're somehow paid to attend and 2) any decent, intelligent person in 2017 acknowledges the importance of diversity in the workplace. Heck, a lot of the largest corporations now explicitly require their outside counsel to meet diversity metrics before retention -- so even if you don't personally value diversity (it is Texas, after all), surely you can appreciate the financials behind the firm trying to diversify.

The fact that a bunch of (probably straight, white) male summers (likely from middling law schools because that office has scraped the bottom of the barrel for a number of reasons) are raging that their female colleagues made a couple thousand more post-tax dollars despite the fact that they had to endure the same number of extended lunches and burdensome all-expenses-paid social events is honestly indicative of what's wrong with big law.


One diversity fellowship was given in the Houston office to an URM male. The women were given the same amount as him based on sex alone. So what about the other 5 URM men in the summer class? Are they not as valued? Well I can tell you the one no-offer was given to one of those URM males leaving just 4 URM males without being shown they are valued.

Lastly, those "middling law schools" you're referencing are: Harvard (1), Michigan (1), and Georgetown (2). Those are the schools the 4 URM males attend.


I'm new to this conversation but

You gotta relax on this one. Not getting the 25k is really not a big deal.
Kirkland handed out diversity fellowships this year to basically anyone who applied and was a urm. My guess as to why the other urm guys didn't get one is that they didn't send in the application. Send a quick text to the other urm summers and see if they applied. If they did, I'd be shocked to learn that they didn't receive the fellowship. The firm spent a good bit of time this summer talking about how they've been increasing their diversity efforts and handed out the most diversity fellowships in firm history. They literally removed the page where they listed the names of people who got it each year from the firm website, (I'm assuming) because the list was too long.

If you think they don't value you, jump ship. Go try and see if any other firm will offer you a 25k bonus for coming in as a 3L. There's always Quinn (and I think they give out 35k). Also enjoy giving up the bar stipend and taking a salary advance from most other firms. Bottom line is over the time you're gonna be there, Kirkland is going to give you more money than most (possibly all) or your classmates will earn during the same period. Just chill dude.


This is obvs a KE atty post. What the firm did and the lack of transparency w/ the SA class is unacceptable and their frustration is understandable. In re to salary advance and bar stipend? Idk what you're talking about giving that up b/c most of the reputable firms in Hou offer that as well. So yeah if the firm's response is to "just chill dude" b/c fellow SA's received an extra $25k on the basis of gender...I'd be looking elsewhere like many of them are. And for the SA's that aren't ticked off (which I haven't heard to be the case), good for them.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Every Kirkland office already awards a $25k diversity fellowship to at least one SA each summer. They have for years and I've never heard anyone get bent out of shape about it because 1) the Kirkland summer program is a 10-week party that you're somehow paid to attend and 2) any decent, intelligent person in 2017 acknowledges the importance of diversity in the workplace. Heck, a lot of the largest corporations now explicitly require their outside counsel to meet diversity metrics before retention -- so even if you don't personally value diversity (it is Texas, after all), surely you can appreciate the financials behind the firm trying to diversify.

The fact that a bunch of (probably straight, white) male summers (likely from middling law schools because that office has scraped the bottom of the barrel for a number of reasons) are raging that their female colleagues made a couple thousand more post-tax dollars despite the fact that they had to endure the same number of extended lunches and burdensome all-expenses-paid social events is honestly indicative of what's wrong with big law.


One diversity fellowship was given in the Houston office to an URM male. The women were given the same amount as him based on sex alone. So what about the other 5 URM men in the summer class? Are they not as valued? Well I can tell you the one no-offer was given to one of those URM males leaving just 4 URM males without being shown they are valued.

Lastly, those "middling law schools" you're referencing are: Harvard (1), Michigan (1), and Georgetown (2). Those are the schools the 4 URM males attend.


I'm new to this conversation but

You gotta relax on this one. Not getting the 25k is really not a big deal.
Kirkland handed out diversity fellowships this year to basically anyone who applied and was a urm. My guess as to why the other urm guys didn't get one is that they didn't send in the application. Send a quick text to the other urm summers and see if they applied. If they did, I'd be shocked to learn that they didn't receive the fellowship. The firm spent a good bit of time this summer talking about how they've been increasing their diversity efforts and handed out the most diversity fellowships in firm history. They literally removed the page where they listed the names of people who got it each year from the firm website, (I'm assuming) because the list was too long.

If you think they don't value you, jump ship. Go try and see if any other firm will offer you a 25k bonus for coming in as a 3L. There's always Quinn (and I think they give out 35k). Also enjoy giving up the bar stipend and taking a salary advance from most other firms. Bottom line is over the time you're gonna be there, Kirkland is going to give you more money than most (possibly all) or your classmates will earn during the same period. Just chill dude.


This is obvs a KE atty post. What the firm did and the lack of transparency w/ the SA class is unacceptable and their frustration is understandable. In re to salary advance and bar stipend? Idk what you're talking about giving that up b/c most of the reputable firms in Hou offer that as well. So yeah if the firm's response is to "just chill dude" b/c fellow SA's received an extra $25k on the basis of gender...I'd be looking elsewhere like many of them are. And for the SA's that aren't ticked off (which I haven't heard to be the case), good for them.


Nah I'm another summer just at a different office. Still think the Houston summers who are mad about HOU women getting a bonus need to chill.

Like my understanding is this was just the women in the Houston office. You don't see any NYC women complaining or any men in any other office complaining that they didn't get the bonus too because everyone understands that the firm is gonna throw money at people over the summer based on trying to boost certain numbers in certain offices.

Like imagine dude was complaining about the diversity fellows, would you still be cool with how MAF he is about this whole thing? Because it's basically the same thing.

ETA: re: salary advance, KE gives you a stipend instead of an advance (as in you don't have to pay it back over the next several months while working) on top of taking care of all bar exam fees and classes. If the other Houston firms are doing that, cool. But if they're not, it'd be weird for a guy complaining about not getting 25k pre tax to also give up 10k pre tax and go to another firm where he has to pay back 10k over several months since he claims to be all about feeling "valued."

Basically summers complaining about compensation (especially at KE) is literally the worst.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:29 pm

Btw, speaking from personal experience, HayBoo in Dallas and Locke Lord in Houston do the same exact thing for minority summers (if you apply). At least they did last summer.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Right2BearArms » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Btw, speaking from personal experience, HayBoo in Dallas and Locke Lord in Houston do the same exact thing for minority summers (if you apply). At least they did last summer.


Yeah guy (or gal), pretty sure you are describing diversity scholarship positions, which tons of firms do. These generally come with a bonus labeled as s "stipend" or "scholarship". That's is totally different than just flat out giving a bonus to a select portion of you class for no reason other than they are women.

That being said, if you were a KE summer an were put off by this, by all means seek alternative employment. You will likely find, however, that you will not get any better treatment elsewhere. A junior associate is a cog in the machine and history/statistics dictate that most of any given class will not be at the same firm they summered with at the end of their 5th year as an associate.

For those of you defending KE my saying this "levels the field" or whatever, really? A one time bonus is what makes the world right? I struggle, really struggle, to see how a bonus that works out to about $17,000 after taxes/SS/Medicaid accomplishes anything other than creating a situation where others can feel resentment and thus breeds internet discussions like this.

Also, has anyone who isn't posting anon even verified this? Feel like it will pop up on ATL or elsewhere in a day or two if true, and I am not willing to take a single anonymous poster here as definitive proof that this even happened the way it has been described.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:58 pm

As the anon summer associate from another KE office, I've only heard about this situation here on this board. Haven't heard anything about this from my friends at other offices. So my takes are based solely on what's been posted here so far from the Houston SA that doesn't feel valued.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:07 pm

Right2BearArms wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Right2BearArms wrote:
TexasHays wrote:
Right2BearArms wrote:
TexasHays wrote:[quote="Anonymous UserMakes sense, just making sure. Something like a signing bonus should only ever move the needle if you are 100% torn between two choices. General advice here, if you like a firm better than another, don't let something like a signing bonus sway you to a firm you like less than another. For all the people who loved KE and got a bonus as an SA, great for them, but I hope no one took an offer at KE over a firm they liked better because of the money. It just isn't a material number in the grand scheme of your lifetime earnings.

Back more on topic, I am not sure about some of the specific questions asked as I do not work at KE, but the KE Houston office seems to be as busy as it has ever been and they just moved into the prime spot in the newest building downtown. If anyone is worried about the viability / permanency of KE in Houston, I do not think that is a consideration you need to seriously consider. They are here to stay.


Are you an associate at KE? No I am a midlevel associate in Houston (not KE), and to me those points mean very little to viability or reasons to go to KE. Moving to new office space doesn't mean you will stay, it is the same as signing a lease anywhere, every office does it and there is lots of availability for office space in Houston right now, so the new places are giving deals trying to fill space. Nowhere have I argued there are any specific reasons to go to KE. I have stated that it is not a dangerous choice given their growth and the amount of work they do. Moving into the newest building, availability of Class A space downtown or not, is not going to yield the kind of deals moving into Penzoil place or Houston Center would have. Also, their offices are stupid nice (their temp space was a dump). My point is, was and always will be, stability questions are silly. Its the same argument that people used against Latham when they started.

The question I have is how many equity partners has KE made in-house? How many do they have? I think they have made exactly 0 equity partners from people moving up as opposed to bringing people over as partner. That is what would make me nervous. That and the insane leverage. They have the highest leverage of any Houston firm by a lot, and that is not a good sign. They are at almost 100 associates and only have 13 equity partners! Ummm that's the KE model. Bottom heavy with a lot of non-equity "partners" who are 6-8 year attorneys who would be associates anywhere else. As others have pointed out, they have ben open in Houston just less than 3 years, which is not really a reasonable time line to judge. If there are no new partners in 3 more years, that is maybe an issue.

Are they very busy? Yes. Do I work across from them all the time? Yes. Are your chances of making equity partner insanely low? Yes. If you don't care about making partner, more power to you. Go, work as many or more hours than the other top shops and get paid exactly the same. But you won't know if you care about making partner until you have been practicing for at least a couple years, so be careful severely limiting that before you even start. Partner is difficult to make any every big law shop. Now, I will grant you that KE associates and especially the non-equity partners seem severely overworked at times. I think burnout and no longer caring to be an attorney are a bigger risk.


Responses above.

Please understand, I do not work at KE, and I have no skin in the game. I have ignored, deleted or turned down dozens of emails and calls about working there, and I know the type of signing bonus I would still get to move (it is less than it was a year ago, but still substantial).

My point in this thread is: (I) an SA signing bonus is not something on which to base a career decision on, (ii) KE Houston is not going to close anytime soon and (iii) if you really like KE, you should take your offer regardless of how much of a bonus you do or do not get.


As a midlevel associate, the leverage scares me away. The offers from KE are still strong with, as recruiters put it, "high five figure signing bonuses." I am sure their incoming associates are fine, but most of their laterals are associates who were at bad corporate shops, not even corporate associates before moving to KE or disliked/did a poor job at their previous firm (I do agree these are good reasons to move). I will say, some of their associates are totally fine and I am guessing the 80k signing bonus for midlevels had heavy sway at one point. Seems like there would be too many chips on shoulders and would create a dog-eat-dog environment. Their Partners are top notch though. I don't think KE is going anywhere they and Latham both solidified their spot in Houston by this point.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:52 pm

Can any KE Houston attorneys comment on the timeline after callbacks for this cycle?

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Cochran » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:32 pm

Does KE Houston recruit 3Ls? If so, do they recruit from schools outside of Texas?

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby lawyersHATEhim » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:12 pm

Anyone know how fast offers are coming after CBs and what the CB to offer ratio is?

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:39 am

lawyersHATEhim wrote:Anyone know how fast offers are coming after CBs and what the CB to offer ratio is?


Not sure on the ratio, but offers are sent out within 24-48 hours max with this office. So if things go silent it is probably bad news.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
lawyersHATEhim wrote:Anyone know how fast offers are coming after CBs and what the CB to offer ratio is?


Not sure on the ratio, but offers are sent out within 24-48 hours max with this office. So if things go silent it is probably bad news.


at CB recruiting said they weren't making any decisions either way until late next week at the earliest, so that could have been a lie but hoping it wasn't.

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Re: Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:32 pm

Callbacks last year went out the day after interview, offers literally three hours after leaving the callback.



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