Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

2L anon here.

Please don’t go after individuals by stating K&E got a bad haul of UT recruits.

3,18 isn't bad. It's certainly below median though.

You obviously don’t know what you are talking about.

Blanket assertion noted.

Also your point on grade cut off isn’t strong. I don’t know if that is the cutoff, but just because someone makes the grade cut off doesn’t mean we hire them.

Nor does LW hire someone just because someone with a GPA of 3,54 or above walks in. That's just the threshold to get the foot in the door, and KE's threshold is significantly lower. I wonder why that is?

You also failed to mention that UT forces firms to take 75% of their OCIs by blind lottery.

I failed to mention that because it's demonstrably false. You might wanna check with your recruiter to confirm the actual %. Hint: it's lower, currently. Hint 2: in 2017 (which goes with the reported GPA cut-offs, all of which your recruiter can verify) it was significantly lower.

In order to get exposure to the number of students we want from UT, it would be impossible to get a wide spread of personalities in the other 25% without having a generous cut off, particularly when you keep in mind we are also recruiting for our NY, West Coast and Chicago offices if UT students want to go there.

What's the last time you've talked to your recruiting unit? KE Houston has its own allotment of interview slots. 42 to be precise. KE gets more slots for the nationwide recruitment, and an additional allotment of slots for the Dallas office (21, to be precise). It's Latham, with its much more demanding GPA cut-off that (1) doesn't allow people to interview for multiple locations and (2) has a single allotment of interviews.
But again, don't take my word for it, contact your recruiting team and they in turn can verify those exact numbers with UT's career office.

tl;dr on: what's the caliber of KE Houston's current associates?
2L anon posts Chambers ratings and GPA cut-off points.
KE associates respond with: conclusory assertions, uncalled for ad hominem attacks ("you have some ulterior motive"), verifiably false numbers, macho imagery ("erection"/"wet dream"/etc. and that's just this page).

[Anonymous User]

This thread has gotten weird. I will say, as someone who has done research into various top firms in Houston, there does seem to be some weird feelings towards K&E. For instance, people exaggerating how much better BB or VE are in comparison ( in a way that betrays emotional animosity), or, when mentioning interest in KE Houston, the odd type of looks interviewers from other top Texas firms give. I will say I've interviewed with KE and NO ONE I talked to had anything negative to say about either VE or Latham. And, the whole gunner stereotype is not really what I experienced as well.

By the way, I respect the KE posters having their coworkers' backs.

[Anonymous User]

2L anon here.

Please don’t go after individuals by stating K&E got a bad haul of UT recruits.

3,18 isn't bad. It's certainly below median though.

You obviously don’t know what you are talking about.

Blanket assertion noted.

Also your point on grade cut off isn’t strong. I don’t know if that is the cutoff, but just because someone makes the grade cut off doesn’t mean we hire them.

Nor does LW hire someone just because someone with a GPA of 3,54 or above walks in. That's just the threshold to get the foot in the door, and KE's threshold is significantly lower. I wonder why that is?

You also failed to mention that UT forces firms to take 75% of their OCIs by blind lottery.

I failed to mention that because it's demonstrably false. You might wanna check with your recruiter to confirm the actual %. Hint: it's lower, currently. Hint 2: in 2017 (which goes with the reported GPA cut-offs, all of which your recruiter can verify) it was significantly lower.

In order to get exposure to the number of students we want from UT, it would be impossible to get a wide spread of personalities in the other 25% without having a generous cut off, particularly when you keep in mind we are also recruiting for our NY, West Coast and Chicago offices if UT students want to go there.

What's the last time you've talked to your recruiting unit? KE Houston has its own allotment of interview slots. 42 to be precise. KE gets more slots for the nationwide recruitment, and an additional allotment of slots for the Dallas office (21, to be precise). It's Latham, with its much more demanding GPA cut-off that (1) doesn't allow people to interview for multiple locations and (2) has a single allotment of interviews.
But again, don't take my word for it, contact your recruiting team and they in turn can verify those exact numbers with UT's career office.

tl;dr on: what's the caliber of KE Houston's current associates?
2L anon posts Chambers ratings and GPA cut-off points.
KE associates respond with: conclusory assertions, uncalled for ad hominem attacks ("you have some ulterior motive"), verifiably false numbers, macho imagery ("erection"/"wet dream"/etc. and that's just this page).

Just to be clear. The person who said "erection" etc., was not a KE associate. The person was making fun of KE associates having wet dreams about their firm.

[Ultramar vistas]

This thread has gotten weird. I will say, as someone who has done research into various top firms in Houston, there does seem to be some weird feelings towards K&E. For instance, people exaggerating how much better BB or VE are in comparison ( in a way that betrays emotional animosity), or, when mentioning interest in KE Houston, the odd type of looks interviewers from other top Texas firms give. I will say I've interviewed with KE and NO ONE I talked to had anything negative to say about either VE or Latham. And, the whole gunner stereotype is not really what I experienced as well.

By the way, I respect the KE posters having their coworkers' backs.

Has been that way since our first proper recruiting season, which I went through. I think it’s both understandable given what outsider firms have recently done to the market, but also a mistake to recruit negatively - the anti-pitch they made to me was literally based around Kirkland giving out too much responsibility too early because they have too much work. When I asked the Kirkland interviewers about those comments they looked at each other, nodded and said yep, it was going to be a crazy ride but it would be fun, and I’d get amazing development opportunities.

Okay - well no wonder Kirkland ended up with the amazing culture we have. The other firms literally pushed everyone with confidence in their abilities who is interested in early responsibility and a strong community mentality into our office. Not just ‘gunners’, plenty of quieter introverted people but all of them with the desire to develop skills and learn how to be better lawyers.

I know nothing and care less about grade cutoffs - I won’t even argue the point. All I can say is that the attorneys here are, almost without exception, passionate about their work and excited about what we do each day. And that’s who I want to work with. I can’t tell the difference between a 4.0 lawyer and 3.2 lawyer unless I look for the Latin honors on their office diploma, but it makes a massive difference to me whether the other junior associate on a deal gives a damn, or is just waiting for the right recruiter to come along. Here, I never have to worry about who is going to pick up slack, or whether moral is low.

At a certain point, the market will accept this as the status quo - Houston is not going to be a special little market anymore, many if not most international firms will have offices here. That’s great for the legal market - if not the original Texas firms - and it’s great for the city. This place is growing, it’s diversifying, and people aren’t going to be able to forget about one of the largest cities in America for much longer. I get that’s scary, but trying to frighten people away from Kirkland is trying to put the genie back in the bottle - the days of V&E and BB having sole claim to the city are over, and y’all should embrace the fact that Houston is too important to be regional now.

[Anonymous User]

[/quote] If the other firms have such superior associates, why are their clients hiring Kirkland?[/quote]

This. As a client of lots of law firms, KE has been my go to whenever I can use them. I don't give two shits about LS GPAs or prestige. I have 3rd years at KE running my deals across from junior partners at other Houston firms - which is cost efficient (even at KE's high rates (although not higher than LW, and not materially higher than the VE/BB's of the world), and honestly I feel that we've gotten superior results in all our transactions. I have to imagine that experience makes said 3rd year a better lawyer in the long run (on average) compared to his/her peers who are still doing signature pages and closing checklists, regardless of his/her law school GPA. So as I said before - if you're choosing a firm to train you and teach you how to be a better lawyer, then my purely anecdotal outside experience seems to indicate that KE is a solid choice. I don't know anything about their LS GPA cutoffs, but it doesn't seem relevant at all in the long run unless you're choosing a firm to signal to your friends that you got past a high GPA cutoff or because you think it equates to prestige. Also to say that a pool of recruits from a certain school isn't decent is super rude, especially when you almost certainly have no idea what their resumes look like on a whole. Good luck in the legal community in Houston with that snobby, condescending attitude.

[legalpotato]

W/out revealing too much, I will say that I have been to KE Houston's office and it did have a certain kind of energy that I had never really seen at a law firm before--it was very cool.

With that said, I would still love to hear thoughts re my concerns on KE's possible over-leverage and overextending, and the likelihood of whether it will cast off 50% of its associates in the next global recession.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with all of that. And FWIW I don’t think the poster is correct about UT cutoffs and interview process either. Think they changed it this year and the lottery picks are very high, thought it was 66%, but may be 75% now. At least that’s consistent with what our firm has been told. I’m not at K&E, but can recognize it is a great firm. It is almost certainly the the top firm in Houston right now on the basis of quality and quantity of work. But I also think VE/BB/LW are great firms. Absolutely no reason to recruit for those firms by bashing K&E or being negative on it’s supposed culture. Just be positive and push the firm you are at, particularly if it is as good as VE/BB/LW who are at worst right behind K&E in terms of prestige in Houston.

[Anonymous User]

W/out revealing too much, I will say that I have been to KE Houston's office and it did have a certain kind of energy that I had never really seen at a law firm before--it was very cool.

With that said, I would still love to hear thoughts re my concerns on KE's possible over-leverage and overextending, and the likelihood of whether it will cast off 50% of its associates in the next global recession.

I think Kirkland is more recession-proof than most of its peer firms. Their top-ranked restructuring practice effectively acts as a hedge during a recession and their PE work will continue for at least a while during any downturn (i.e., the funds are committed and have to be used).

Kirkland will be fine during a recession; I’d worry more about firms without their PE or restructuring hedge.

[Anonymous User]

On a lighter note. Any recommendations re: apartment complexes in Houston?

[Anonymous User]

On a lighter note. Any recommendations re: apartment complexes in Houston?

for a while it felt like there were a ton of people who rented at 2900 Dallas right by the Whole Foods. Quick commute in to work and super convenient location. I might look up in the heights too. When I was looking years ago those didn't exist, and there is so much activity/development up there. Great bars and restaurants and that new shopping area between Yale/Heights just north of white oak is cool. No first hand experience with any specific complexes/management though.

[Anonymous User]

On a lighter note. Any recommendations re: apartment complexes in Houston?

for a while it felt like there were a ton of people who rented at 2900 Dallas right by the Whole Foods. Quick commute in to work and super convenient location. I might look up in the heights too. When I was looking years ago those didn't exist, and there is so much activity/development up there. Great bars and restaurants and that new shopping area between Yale/Heights just north of white oak is cool. No first hand experience with any specific complexes/management though.

You would need to be more specific. I'm sure you can find someone on this board who has lived in just about every upscale complex in Midtown and the Heights if you asked. I tend to trust the online reviews that I see probably way too much, although I can never figure out whether these places get "new management" once a month or if that's just an obligatory thing to say when complaining about a place. I've seen the 2900 Dallas though and it's nice, but pretty fungible with the rest of the places you could live.

Re: the recession point, nowhere is safe during a recession. That being said, the restructuring hedge is not going to protect people in practice groups that aren't getting work, and 10:1 (or w/e that number actually is) would probably end up coming a little more down to biglaw equilibrium. But everyone is going to suffer, that's what a recession is. IDK the wisdom in choosing a VE or BB over KE or LW on that point alone.

(Also, can someone check the "Client POV" stories above and make sure the IPs aren't the same as some of the KE posters? I mean obviously they have happy clients because people are using them, but it boggles my mind that some PE associate would actually come onto a law school admissions forum to defend a law firm's honor.)

[Anonymous User]

For someone considering both offers to V&E and K&E, can someone explain why V&E is preferable? I think this thread has pointed out many pros and cons of K&E but i'd like to know similar info about V&E.

[Anonymous User]

On a lighter note. Any recommendations re: apartment complexes in Houston?

for a while it felt like there were a ton of people who rented at 2900 Dallas right by the Whole Foods. Quick commute in to work and super convenient location. I might look up in the heights too. When I was looking years ago those didn't exist, and there is so much activity/development up there. Great bars and restaurants and that new shopping area between Yale/Heights just north of white oak is cool. No first hand experience with any specific complexes/management though.

You would need to be more specific. I'm sure you can find someone on this board who has lived in just about every upscale complex in Midtown and the Heights if you asked. I tend to trust the online reviews that I see probably way too much, although I can never figure out whether these places get "new management" once a month or if that's just an obligatory thing to say when complaining about a place. I've seen the 2900 Dallas though and it's nice, but pretty fungible with the rest of the places you could live.

Re: the recession point, nowhere is safe during a recession. That being said, the restructuring hedge is not going to protect people in practice groups that aren't getting work, and 10:1 (or w/e that number actually is) would probably end up coming a little more down to biglaw equilibrium. But everyone is going to suffer, that's what a recession is. IDK the wisdom in choosing a VE or BB over KE or LW on that point alone.

(Also, can someone check the "Client POV" stories above and make sure the IPs aren't the same as some of the KE posters? I mean obviously they have happy clients because people are using them, but it boggles my mind that some PE associate would actually come onto a law school admissions forum to defend a law firm's honor.)

Am the client poster. Not at a PE shop, slow time at work and am super bored. Normally don't post, but I remember how much it bothered me when people would make generalized statements about my firm when I was there - that we all sucked or whatever. It felt personal and unwarranted, and so I felt compelled to defend against the personality/caliber attacks on KE because I know KE people personally and thought they were being mischaracterized - then got drawn in. See above re slow at work, bored.

[Anonymous User]

Is Kirkland (Houston) interviewing 3L's?

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone comment on if VE specifically is trying to hire from KE? I know KE is hiring a lot, but I've read that it's hard to go from KE to BigTex down the line.

[Anonymous User]

If I'm supposed to be starting work at Latham Houston in the next few months should I be concerned with that Houston office right now? I was taking and then recovering from the bar so I just saw the Sean Wheeler announcement.

[rahulg91]

If I'm supposed to be starting work at Latham Houston in the next few months should I be concerned with that Houston office right now? I was taking and then recovering from the bar so I just saw the Sean Wheeler announcement.

Wheeler was a major get. Latham Houston will feel some pain without him. But absent a downturn in the next year or two there's no need to worry. If there is a major downturn then Latham is probably going to Latham.

[Anonymous User]

It’s very easy to move from K&E to local firms. We get multiple headhunter calls per week on behalf of VE or other local firms. Not many move as it is basically taking a pay cut to do the same, or less high quality work.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone comment on if VE specifically is trying to hire from KE? I know KE is hiring a lot, but I've read that it's hard to go from KE to BigTex down the line.

VE and KE both take pride in poaching people from one another, whether they want to admit it or not. If you are an associate at the KE or VE office in Houston, you can easily get an offer at the other. If you are in Chicago or something then VE won't care about the additional value of pulling from KE and you will be evaluated like any other lateral.

[Anonymous User]

Do y'all know if KE Houston hires SAs for lit? I understand that its lit group is very small but extremely well-regarded.

[Anonymous User]

How is Simpson Thacher Houston compared to Kirkland there?

[Anonymous User]

Any insight on the importance/necessity of attending the cocktail party after OCI. I have a family funeral at 9:00 in the morning the day after and it would be nice to hit the road the evening before (aka the night of the event) as opposed to waking up way early to make the 5+ hour drive home.

[Right2BearArms]

How is Simpson Thacher Houston compared to Kirkland there?

In most regards Simpson Thacher is a non entity in Houston.

[Anonymous User]

1. Can an associate fill their plate with a healthy amount of strategic M&A work if they wanted? I know that jumping into KE means a lot of PEMA, but I saw KE did Sempra's acquisition of EFH and am wondering if that's just a one off or if there's enough dealflow in that area to actually get significant experience in it at KE.

2. Does one need to have done BK work to get BK work if the economy goes to shit? Or will they just throw any warm body they have onto BK stuff? I can't imagine a client paying a midlevel's billable rate if they're functioning on a junior level when it comes to BK work.

3. On the topic of BK, I've heard that it's mostly done out of Chicago and NY, but I also see a lot of associates with energy related BK work on their profiles that I assume was TX based. If there's a recession, would it be hard to get BK work out of a different office to maintain pace with hours?

Thanks for any information in advance.

[Anonymous User]

1. Can an associate fill their plate with a healthy amount of strategic M&A work if they wanted? I know that jumping into KE means a lot of PEMA, but I saw KE did Sempra's acquisition of EFH and am wondering if that's just a one off or if there's enough dealflow in that area to actually get significant experience in it at KE.

2. Does one need to have done BK work to get BK work if the economy goes to shit? Or will they just throw any warm body they have onto BK stuff? I can't imagine a client paying a midlevel's billable rate if they're functioning on a junior level when it comes to BK work.

3. On the topic of BK, I've heard that it's mostly done out of Chicago and NY, but I also see a lot of associates with energy related BK work on their profiles that I assume was TX based. If there's a recession, would it be hard to get BK work out of a different office to maintain pace with hours?

Thanks for any information in advance.

1) I think you could readily get a solid balance of strategic M&A, though it may be harder the first couple of years as the strategics tend to be the friendlier clients (less demanding timelines) and also the PE deals tend to be less fee sensitive and require heavy lifts from juniors in terms of diligence (which produces a lot of junior associate work).

2) No. Everyone will be doing BK work, with some exceptions around share partners or people otherwise busy with non-BK work.

3) Depends on which offices/industries are hit hardest.