Kirkland (Houston) Associate - Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

If KE Houston is so amazing, why's the Chambers rating so underwhelming compared to competitors?

Banking & Finance (Band 4)
Capital Markets: Debt & Equity (Band 4)
Corporate/M&A (Band 3)

It's not bad but I overwhelmingly get the sense from this thread and other sources that quantity trumps quality of work at KE.

As someone at a competitor who got one of the many 6 figure signing bonus offers KE has been putting out there (I decided not to take it), I will tell you KE associates seem higher on the koolaid than they should be. KE does not do "more sophisticated" work than VE/LW/BB. The deals are the same, they just do more PE work whereas VE does more issuer side CAPM and public M&A and LW does more UW CAPM work and BB does a mix but is just a much smaller corporate group. I have worked across from KE many times.

Also, I will be the first to admit, the partners at KE are absolutely at the top of the practice in Houston (equity partners, not non-share partners). The associates on the other hand are mostly underwhelming. They do have some great associates, but even today, a good deal of their associates started at places like paul hastings, AK, fulbright, etc. or didn't even begin their career in corporate. Associates don't go to those firms because of a plethora of options while in school. Also remember where their badass partners all started, its a mix of VE, LW and BB (among others). If you are convinced the caliber of associate is higher at KE than VE/LW/BB you are either at KE or you are wrong. It is a great M&A shop (and their CAPM group is obviously growing), but don't think that the quality of work or caliber of associate is higher there, it just isn't.

[Anonymous User]

If KE Houston is so amazing, why's the Chambers rating so underwhelming compared to competitors?

Banking & Finance (Band 4)
Capital Markets: Debt & Equity (Band 4)
Corporate/M&A (Band 3)

It's not bad but I overwhelmingly get the sense from this thread and other sources that quantity trumps quality of work at KE.

As someone at a competitor who got one of the many 6 figure signing bonus offers KE has been putting out there (I decided not to take it), I will tell you KE associates seem higher on the koolaid than they should be. KE does not do "more sophisticated" work than VE/LW/BB. The deals are the same, they just do more PE work whereas VE does more issuer side CAPM and public M&A and LW does more UW CAPM work and BB does a mix but is just a much smaller corporate group. I have worked across from KE many times.

Also, I will be the first to admit, the partners at KE are absolutely at the top of the practice in Houston (equity partners, not non-share partners). The associates on the other hand are mostly underwhelming. They do have some great associates, but even today, a good deal of their associates started at places like paul hastings, AK, fulbright, etc. or didn't even begin their career in corporate. Associates don't go to those firms because of a plethora of options while in school. Also remember where their badass partners all started, its a mix of VE, LW and BB (among others). If you are convinced the caliber of associate is higher at KE than VE/LW/BB you are either at KE or you are wrong. It is a great M&A shop (and their CAPM group is obviously growing), but don't think that the quality of work or caliber of associate is higher there, it just isn't.

The second paragraph is really true. KE has some great partners but those partners didn't start at KE. Associate caliber in Houston is improving but 2-3 years ago they had on average, not exaggerating, probably the least qualified associates of any major firm's corporate group. That would factor into my decision if I was starting as a junior and working under those people who are now midlevels.

[Anonymous User]

I'm anon who cited to Chambers. Thanks to the above two posters for replying. Rising 2L at UT with pre-OCI offers going into OCI next week. Above two posters' replies are significantly more in line with the anecdotal and observational evidence one accumulates at school through prior summers et al. The hyperbole and aggression in some of the earlier posts selling KE super hard really fail to convey the professionalism I look for among future colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

Classic silly backlash from folks probably at one of VE or BB. As the first poster probably knows Chambers rankings are built up over years, the fact K&E ranks so highly after 4 years is pretty amazing and there is zero doubt it will be band 1 once enough time has passed, alongside or ahead of VE and B.B. The post about the firm being all ex-VE, B.B. and LW Partners is also silly. Among the 21 equity partners there is one from B.B., one just joined from LW, and 4 from VE. All of the others are from New York firms or internal to K&E. 4 have been made equity partner at KE since the office opened and we have been told that 4 or 5 more will be made up this year. On associates the firm has brought in approximately 50 of its associates (1st through 3rd years) currently at the firm from law school, and of the laterals almost all are from VE, Akin, Latham or New York, so not sure how those facts fit with the narratives above.

More broadly associates at K&E chuckle when we read this type of negative recruiting and just move on. The objective facts are that K&E has twice the amount of M&A work than V&E, which is its closest competitor and the deals are the marquee deals in the market. On many deals K&E is actually asked to be on both sides and it is rare, and noticed internally, when we aren’t on any large deal in some capacity. On the capital markets side we are almost always involved in any pitch process along with VE and LW and nobody that is being honest will say the three equity cap m partners at K&E aren’t among the absolute top tier in Houston. The debt finance team supports the M&A team and gets the best mandates on the direct lending side. There is no Koolade at Kirkland and we don’t have to promote the office with misinformation. On the whole most folks here just generally really like where we work and are very positive about the future as the number one firm in Houston. We are all more than happy for students to make up their own minds about which firm they want to join on the basis of facts, we don’t need to make stuff up about the place or pretend the league tables don’t exist. Kind of sad to see firms that feel that is necessary to attract recruits.

[Anonymous User]

But this thread is a great example of what we face each week at K&E. Given our dominance and how we have turned the market upside down, the old line firms just love to hate on us...

[legalpotato]

I don't think anyone can argue that what KE has done in Houston is probably unprecedented and impressive. The fact that there are growing pains in such an aggressive trajectory (e.g., having such a need for associates that some bad hires are made) is to be expected.

I think the question among ppl considering a lateral move, or at least for me, is whether KE's trajectory is sustainable or if KE will collapse on itself like a supernova. Specifically:

-almost 10 to 1 share partner to associate/nsp ratio--seems like a lot of risk joining as an associate
-high guarantees paid to rockstar lateral partners
-may be well hedged in terms of practice areas (strong restructuring and m&A), but maybe not necessarily in client base (view, perhaps false, that KE is a private equity mill).

I am sincerely interested in what your thoughts are on the above.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anyone can argue that what KE has done in Houston is probably unprecedented and impressive. The fact that there are growing pains in such an aggressive trajectory (e.g., having such a need for associates that some bad hires are made) is to be expected.

I think the question among ppl considering a lateral move, or at least for me, is whether KE's trajectory is sustainable or if KE will collapse on itself like a supernova. Specifically:

-almost 10 to 1 share partner to associate/nsp ratio--seems like a lot of risk joining as an associate
-high guarantees paid to rockstar lateral partners
-may be well hedged in terms of practice areas (strong restructuring and m&A), but maybe not necessarily in client base (view, perhaps false, that KE is a private equity mill).

I am sincerely interested in what your thoughts are on the above.

Also you have to ask yourself whether you would enjoy working with stuck-up K&E types. Almost all of the K&E Houston corporate associates I know are in real life exactly like the K&E posters here (bragging about GPA in law school --> bragging about how awesome K&E is now, etc). Not passing judgment on that personality, but you really need to be sure that you will fit in with that crowd. People who don't fit it there get chewed up and spat out fast. I can literally go through my LinkedIn network right now, find the profiles of people with non-gunner personalities who started at there three years ago, and 3 out of 4 of them are no longer there today.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Second poster isn’t worth responding to. As one of my colleagues apparently noted a few days ago only 10 or so people have left in the last 24 months. That’s a true statement. If 3 out of 4 of all of his connections at K&E have left, then his linked in connections must not have included many friends at K&E. Again, not sure why folks fell it is necessary to make stuff up about us.

On the first post the supernova point is a fair question mixed in with some misconceptions. The misconceptions are the leverage number, we are not at 10-1, we have 21 equity partners between Houston and Dallas with 4 or 5 more about to be made up. 120 or so associates/NSPs. As far as I am aware none of our superstar partners have cash guarantees, the firm makes a big deal out of noting that they never give cash guarantees beyond a signing bonus. Although will admit the truth of that statement is way above my paygrade. On the sustainability point that is definitely fair to ask the question. You can look at the glass as half empty and say K&E has made it to the top firm in Houston and the only way is down. Would be a totally fair comment. It’s tough to see how the local firms can come back, but I guess everyone would have to do that analysis for themselves and we certainly can’t predict the future. Can only speak to where the market is now and the young partners we work for that will hopefully keep it going. Can also personally speak to the heavy attempts the other firms are making to hire us from the associate ranks. The local firms love to hate on us and pretend we are all gunners and arrogant folks (I for one wouldn’t work here if that were the case), but mysteriously each of those firms keeps trying to hire everyone in my class. To each their own. Everyone should just chill and join whichever firm they feel most comfortable at.

[Anonymous User]

The second paragraph is really true. KE has some great partners but those partners didn't start at KE. Associate caliber in Houston is improving but 2-3 years ago they had on average, not exaggerating, probably the least qualified associates of any major firm's corporate group. That would factor into my decision if I was starting as a junior and working under those people who are now midlevels.

I'm the anon that wrote this. Just to respond, I don't disagree that K&E is doing great in a variety of practice areas and is one of the strongest if not the strongest firm in Houston currently, certainly by volume. To not agree with the point about associates though is silly -- the initial classes of associates, which were around the time I was going through OCI, were not strong by any objective factor. It was just viewed as a big risk and no one who had offers at the other major firms (or was an associate at one) wanted to take it. It's definitely possible that we were all wrong! It's weird to me that someone would get bent out of shape about that. I really don't hate on Kirkland and have plenty of friends there. Anyway, I'll let y'all get back to taking questions.

[Anonymous User]

We don’t get bent out of shape, we just laugh at negative recruiting. All good here.

[Anonymous User]

Also, (new KE poster here) we shouldn’t assume that just because a 1st year class has worse credentials than at other firms they will remain a weaker class overall. The truth about KE worldwide is that young lawyers simply do more deals in their first few years than they would elsewhere (because the work is there for them, the partners are hands on and the culture is to be keen and hardworking) so the learning curve is super-accelerated. In my office (not Houston) laterals coming in from “peer” or “better” firms as 3rd or 4th years are often way behind KE homegrown associates in terms of experience. It’s not for everyone and you can’t be stuffy or pompous - once you join your prestige degree doesn’t matter.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anyone can argue that what KE has done in Houston is probably unprecedented and impressive. The fact that there are growing pains in such an aggressive trajectory (e.g., having such a need for associates that some bad hires are made) is to be expected.

I think the question among ppl considering a lateral move, or at least for me, is whether KE's trajectory is sustainable or if KE will collapse on itself like a supernova. Specifically:

-almost 10 to 1 share partner to associate/nsp ratio--seems like a lot of risk joining as an associate
-high guarantees paid to rockstar lateral partners
-may be well hedged in terms of practice areas (strong restructuring and m&A), but maybe not necessarily in client base (view, perhaps false, that KE is a private equity mill).

I am sincerely interested in what your thoughts are on the above.

Also you have to ask yourself whether you would enjoy working with stuck-up K&E types. Almost all of the K&E Houston corporate associates I know are in real life exactly like the K&E posters here (bragging about GPA in law school --> bragging about how awesome K&E is now, etc). Not passing judgment on that personality, but you really need to be sure that you will fit in with that crowd. People who don't fit it there get chewed up and spat out fast. I can literally go through my LinkedIn network right now, find the profiles of people with non-gunner personalities who started at there three years ago, and 3 out of 4 of them are no longer there today.

This kind of judgmental comment really pisses me off. You literally are "passing judgment". I'm not at K&E. I'm not at any law firm. I have no dog in this fight, but I know lots of people at K&E Houston and on average they are all really great people. Super nice, work hard. Are there bad apples? Yes. Does every law firm have bad apples? Yes. Making the kind of generalization above that people who work at K&E are "stuck up K&E types" is unhelpful and misguided, and pretty rude. You make the blanket assumption that non-gunner people left because they were chewed up and spit out because they didn't fit in. Working at big law firm is HARD work and grueling and people burn out. That happens at almost any big law firm. K&E is not unique in this. And just because people leave doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been successful if they stayed. I fit in well at my firm before I left, but ultimately was burned out and left. Also you see "bragging about how awesome K&E is" as inherently bad and, I don't know the context of the conversation, but couldn't it just be that they are proud of their firm and genuinely happy with their jobs (god forbid) and maybe even trying to get you to come over and join because 1) they probably get a referral bonus if you do and 2) they like where they work and think you might too. Yeah people who talked about their high GPAs were annoying in LS, but whatever - let people be proud of where they work and stop shitting on the whole firm because you know a few gunners from LS that went there.

2L trying to decide on firms. Go meet with people at the firm, do second looks, go to lots of lunches, coffees etc. and get to know the associates individually. Don't take blanket generalizations about what your experience will be like at a large law firm from someone on an anonymous message board who hasn't worked there.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for this thread, it's very interesting. I'm a 3rd year at the Houston office of an NYC firm and I'm on track to bill about 2200 hours this year. How does this compare to your hours at KE? Earlier in this thread you mentioned 2200, is this still accurate?

[Anonymous User]

2L trying to decide on firms. Go meet with people at the firm, do second looks, go to lots of lunches, coffees etc. and get to know the associates individually. Don't take blanket generalizations about what your experience will be like at a large law firm from someone on an anonymous message board who hasn't worked there.

2L anon here. Absolutely agree. However, I'm watching how associates conduct themselves in all avenues, and that includes work day posting on here. Speaking of associate caliber:

The second paragraph is really true. KE has some great partners but those partners didn't start at KE. Associate caliber in Houston is improving but 2-3 years ago they had on average, not exaggerating, probably the least qualified associates of any major firm's corporate group. That would factor into my decision if I was starting as a junior and working under those people who are now midlevels.

I'm the anon that wrote this. Just to respond, I don't disagree that K&E is doing great in a variety of practice areas and is one of the strongest if not the strongest firm in Houston currently, certainly by volume. To not agree with the point about associates though is silly -- the initial classes of associates, which were around the time I was going through OCI, were not strong by any objective factor. It was just viewed as a big risk and no one who had offers at the other major firms (or was an associate at one) wanted to take it. It's definitely possible that we were all wrong! It's weird to me that someone would get bent out of shape about that. I really don't hate on Kirkland and have plenty of friends there. Anyway, I'll let y'all get back to taking questions.

At UT last year, KE Houston's GPA cut-off was 3,18. Compare to LW (3,52) and BB (3,41). And even then they fail to attract a decent pool of UT candidates.

[OneTwoThreeFour]

I don't think anyone can argue that what KE has done in Houston is probably unprecedented and impressive. The fact that there are growing pains in such an aggressive trajectory (e.g., having such a need for associates that some bad hires are made) is to be expected.

I think the question among ppl considering a lateral move, or at least for me, is whether KE's trajectory is sustainable or if KE will collapse on itself like a supernova. Specifically:

-almost 10 to 1 share partner to associate/nsp ratio--seems like a lot of risk joining as an associate
-high guarantees paid to rockstar lateral partners
-may be well hedged in terms of practice areas (strong restructuring and m&A), but maybe not necessarily in client base (view, perhaps false, that KE is a private equity mill).

I am sincerely interested in what your thoughts are on the above.

Also you have to ask yourself whether you would enjoy working with stuck-up K&E types. Almost all of the K&E Houston corporate associates I know are in real life exactly like the K&E posters here (bragging about GPA in law school --> bragging about how awesome K&E is now, etc). Not passing judgment on that personality, but you really need to be sure that you will fit in with that crowd. People who don't fit it there get chewed up and spat out fast. I can literally go through my LinkedIn network right now, find the profiles of people with non-gunner personalities who started at there three years ago, and 3 out of 4 of them are no longer there today.

(literally passing judgment)

pls don't take advice from this asshat

there are many reasons not to choose a firm, this person has listed none of them

[Anonymous User]

2,200 is the average we have been told, but obviously averages presumably include folks not working as hard, and folks killing themselves. I don’t want to give my exact number for obvious reasons, but it was around that number + or - 100.

[Ultramar vistas]

The negative, defensive recruiting against K&E is inevitable, but sad. It's also really unappealing - and very telling that it's all coming from accounts that hide behind anon.

[Anonymous User]

2L trying to decide on firms. Go meet with people at the firm, do second looks, go to lots of lunches, coffees etc. and get to know the associates individually. Don't take blanket generalizations about what your experience will be like at a large law firm from someone on an anonymous message board who hasn't worked there.

2L anon here. Absolutely agree. However, I'm watching how associates conduct themselves in all avenues, and that includes work day posting on here. Speaking of associate caliber:

The second paragraph is really true. KE has some great partners but those partners didn't start at KE. Associate caliber in Houston is improving but 2-3 years ago they had on average, not exaggerating, probably the least qualified associates of any major firm's corporate group. That would factor into my decision if I was starting as a junior and working under those people who are now midlevels.

I'm the anon that wrote this. Just to respond, I don't disagree that K&E is doing great in a variety of practice areas and is one of the strongest if not the strongest firm in Houston currently, certainly by volume. To not agree with the point about associates though is silly -- the initial classes of associates, which were around the time I was going through OCI, were not strong by any objective factor. It was just viewed as a big risk and no one who had offers at the other major firms (or was an associate at one) wanted to take it. It's definitely possible that we were all wrong! It's weird to me that someone would get bent out of shape about that. I really don't hate on Kirkland and have plenty of friends there. Anyway, I'll let y'all get back to taking questions.

At UT last year, KE Houston's GPA cut-off was 3,18. Compare to LW (3,52) and BB (3,41). And even then they fail to attract a decent pool of UT candidates.

LS GPA does not correlate to the caliber of associates. It means you take a law school exam well. I worked with lots of associates with high GPAs who were really shitty at their jobs. What matters is the kind of training, mentorship and hands on experience you get early in your career. My gut is that K&E is a little better at delivering this than other firms because they have sort of a baptism by fire approach and give a ton of responsibility early on, but I don't have data points to support this other than seeing KE associates at a more junior level taking on more visible roles in my deals than those at other firms. I don't know what their LS GPAs are. I don't care. As a client of lots of law firms, I can tell you from my experience it is not true that the KE associates are or were lower caliber. If what matters to you in looking for your job is to signal to your fellow classmates how high your GPA is because you made a higher cut off, then cool - do you bro.

[Anonymous User]

Different K&E poster here. Please don’t go after individuals by stating K&E got a bad haul of UT recruits. You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. The recruits we had from UT were great, including a couple very high up in the class and we have their backs 100%. The year before we had a big group from UT and I am sure it will be big again this year. It’s one thing to make stuff up about the firm, another to make stuff up about individuals that have joined us from a specific school. Also your point on grade cut off isn’t strong. I don’t know if that is the cutoff, but just because someone makes the grade cut off doesn’t mean we hire them. You also failed to mention that UT forces firms to take 75% of their OCIs by blind lottery. In order to get exposure to the number of students we want from UT, it would be impossible to get a wide spread of personalities in the other 25% without having a generous cut off, particularly when you keep in mind we are also recruiting for our NY, West Coast and Chicago offices if UT students want to go there. Our 30 person summer class this year also had students from 10 other schools, including ones where the Houston firms wouldn’t have a chance of getting a decent recruit. The associates at K&E Houston are invited to be super involved in recruiting and the summer program to bring through the next generation and we are all really proud of where it is. Dont think we lost a single recruit that we offered to B.B. last OCI. We did lose a couple to Latham. Either way, if you are just going to hate on K&E why don’t you simply avoid the thread, unless you have some ulterior motive. Seems like the point of this was for folks to ask questions of the OP who last year was willing to share their actual first hand experience working at the office.

[Anonymous User]

2L trying to decide on firms. Go meet with people at the firm, do second looks, go to lots of lunches, coffees etc. and get to know the associates individually. Don't take blanket generalizations about what your experience will be like at a large law firm from someone on an anonymous message board who hasn't worked there.

2L anon here. Absolutely agree. However, I'm watching how associates conduct themselves in all avenues, and that includes work day posting on here. Speaking of associate caliber:

The second paragraph is really true. KE has some great partners but those partners didn't start at KE. Associate caliber in Houston is improving but 2-3 years ago they had on average, not exaggerating, probably the least qualified associates of any major firm's corporate group. That would factor into my decision if I was starting as a junior and working under those people who are now midlevels.

I'm the anon that wrote this. Just to respond, I don't disagree that K&E is doing great in a variety of practice areas and is one of the strongest if not the strongest firm in Houston currently, certainly by volume. To not agree with the point about associates though is silly -- the initial classes of associates, which were around the time I was going through OCI, were not strong by any objective factor. It was just viewed as a big risk and no one who had offers at the other major firms (or was an associate at one) wanted to take it. It's definitely possible that we were all wrong! It's weird to me that someone would get bent out of shape about that. I really don't hate on Kirkland and have plenty of friends there. Anyway, I'll let y'all get back to taking questions.

At UT last year, KE Houston's GPA cut-off was 3,18. Compare to LW (3,52) and BB (3,41). And even then they fail to attract a decent pool of UT candidates.

If the other firms have such superior associates, why are their clients hiring Kirkland?

[Ultramar vistas]

Either way, if you are just going to hate on K&E why don’t you simply avoid the thread, unless you have some ulterior motive. Seems like the point of this was for folks to ask questions of the OP who last year was willing to share their actual first hand experience working at the office.

Yeah. It's genuinely sad for them that folks from other firms feel the need to show up in a thread like this, with nothing to say for their own firms, only negative things about K&E. Just like in real life, it's only the deeply insecure who try to raise themselves up by putting down others.

[Neff]

Associates at other biglaw firms: I f’ing hate my job and the people I work with, can’t wait to go in-house/quit!!

K&E associates: I wake up with a huge erection every morning after wet dreams about K&E’s latest lateral poach from prestigious peer firm.

LOL. Be wary.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Associates at other biglaw firms: I f’ing hate my job and the people I work with, can’t wait to go in-house/quit!!

K&E associates: I wake up with a huge erection every morning after wet dreams about K&E’s latest lateral poach from prestigious peer firm.

LOL. Be wary.

I wouldn't be so cynical. I suspect there's a strong self-selection effect here. In other words, if you're the kind of person who would value being at a place like K&E, you're going to really value that because the ethos there is all about how great that kind of place is (work hard, learn a lot, know you're top of the market). Unless you're completely cynical, I think you have to admit that it'd be possible to build a firm with that kind of culture. From what I know of K&E, not just in Houston, they seem to have succeeded in that, both in their associate recruiting and in poaching partners.

Not saying that culture bad. I get it, I'm attracted to it. I think it's very preferable to the attitude of "2-5 years of grudging debt service before moving on to something with better work/life balance." (I also get this is not entirely fair to people who are not all "hoo-rah" about being attorneys, that it's just a job and there are other, very valuable things in life, like family, friends, interests outside of career. Those are choices about how to prioritize; everyone weighs things a bit differently.) Personally, I'd very much like to be at a place like K&E Houston. But I definitely have known plenty of people who would be out of sorts there, at least based on my impressions from this thread and elsewhere.

To be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight—seriously, I'm not even in Texas—but it's been fun and interesting watching this thread.

ETA: Some of us really do want to be great, take-no-prisoners lawyers and aren't just doing this because it's a well-compensated, almost but not anywhere near as respected as being a doctor kinda profession. I know that's incomprehensible to some, but that's a failure of imagination.

[RaceJudicata]

This is bizarre.