What the hell is going on

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How many CBs have you gotten so far?

0
18
8%
1
9
4%
2
15
7%
3
12
6%
4+
159
75%
 
Total votes: 213

Nebby

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Nebby » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:26 am

Welp this thread has served it's purpose. Burn it down

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Atmosphere

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Atmosphere » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.


lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you


Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).


Not true. All the people I know at the T14 with 8+ callbacks are white males. I'm a URM woman with zero CBs and top 20% grades. Unfortunately you all are still seen to be better lawyers. Firms don't actively recruit URMs, just a token number.

Anecdotal, but I'm asian, lower T14, top 20%, and have 8+ CBs.


Also Asian, median at CCN, 8+ CBs.

ITT people complaining about striking out because they are white. People complaining about striking out because they are not white.



+ 1

Anonymous User
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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:30 am

also asian, top quarter at MVP and 15 callbacks ranging from v5 to v50. and i know the white folks killing it at my school too.

if ur white and not getting callbacks its cause of your grades and/or bad interviewing skills

Mr. nobody

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Mr. nobody » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:32 am

Greeks are the blacks of Europe

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:32 am

Nebby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Maybe it's feast or famine? I'm barely above median at my t14, straight through, male, not URM, with 16 callbacks (2/4 DC screeners). All my friends have done as well or better.


lol, mentioning the words "barely above median" and "male" and "white" as if being an above-average white male is some kind of disadvantage and you got 16 callbacks despite this 'disadvantage', good for you


Firms are targeting URMs and women because they are image-conscious and their partnerdoms are overwhelmingly white male. I really don't think median white guys are a hot commodity right now (unless it's bro culture).

Sounds like low energy excuses. You should get better and not make up excuses


+1

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TasmanianToucan

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby TasmanianToucan » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:35 am

Mr. nobody wrote:Greeks are the blacks of Europe

Ugh. Cmon. This is totally unhelpful.

Are we done here yet?

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Very happy with Fordham experience. I know people say T14 or bust, but a huge number of Fordham students (even those outside of top 1/3 and Law Review) seemed to be getting callbacks and offers.


I was talking to a V30 partner at a CCN reception and he was talking about how the T14 or bust is BS and how he and his firm are increasingly looking for driven, ambitious students from other schools. He actually referred to Fordham specifically.


I wouldn't use this anecdote as some sort of trend in NY firms hiring less out of T14. At the large NYC firm I summered at, various partners, especially the partners who came from non-T14 schools, emphasized the importance of school prestige. Fordham was mentioned at a number of lunches, but not in the positive light mentioned above.

There were even instances where a partner would specifically ask for a "top school" summer to go with him/her to a negotiation or whatever because the opposing firm was bringing a summer from a brand name school. I specifically remember a G-Town summer working with a partner on a deal for a month, only to have the said partner ask recruiting to grab another summer (and the recruiting dept. sent a feeler out for availability to summers at higher ranked schools) to go meet the opposing firm. This was the most extreme case I saw this summer... and I was surprised that even GTown didn't cut it for this partner.


That sounds like a terrible place to work. I understand wanting the best summer to go with them, and sometimes that is synonymous with top schools, but why frame it like that?

suralin

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby suralin » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:37 am

Mr. nobody wrote:

no. banned

stoopkid13

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby stoopkid13 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Very happy with Fordham experience. I know people say T14 or bust, but a huge number of Fordham students (even those outside of top 1/3 and Law Review) seemed to be getting callbacks and offers.


I was talking to a V30 partner at a CCN reception and he was talking about how the T14 or bust is BS and how he and his firm are increasingly looking for driven, ambitious students from other schools. He actually referred to Fordham specifically.


I wouldn't use this anecdote as some sort of trend in NY firms hiring less out of T14. At the large NYC firm I summered at, various partners, especially the partners who came from non-T14 schools, emphasized the importance of school prestige. Fordham was mentioned at a number of lunches, but not in the positive light mentioned above.

There were even instances where a partner would specifically ask for a "top school" summer to go with him/her to a negotiation or whatever because the opposing firm was bringing a summer from a brand name school. I specifically remember a G-Town summer working with a partner on a deal for a month, only to have the said partner ask recruiting to grab another summer (and the recruiting dept. sent a feeler out for availability to summers at higher ranked schools) to go meet the opposing firm. This was the most extreme case I saw this summer... and I was surprised that even GTown didn't cut it for this partner.


That sounds like a terrible place to work. I understand wanting the best summer to go with them, and sometimes that is synonymous with top schools, but why frame it like that?


I wonder how much of this is because firms themselves care and how much is the client cares. Could be a terrible client more than a terrible firm.

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:39 am

ANYway...

What the hell is going on?

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:40 am

So what I'm hearing is that we're just dumber than previous classes and/or we have poor interviewing skills, correct?

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:ANYway...

What the hell is going on?


Could be firms moving to 180, could be shift to pre-OCI hiring. IMO its that interviews matter more most think, and most think they are better interviewers than they actually are.

fauxpsych

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby fauxpsych » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
mid-level interviewer from a top firm here. i've got several OCIs under my belt over the last few years, and i'll say this. sure, we don't know about a particular candidate's LSAT score. and we don't really care about their undergraduate GPA. but i just got back from a t-20 OCI and i just saw, easily, the least impressive crop of candidates i've ever seen.

we had multiple cover letters with the wrong firm name. we had multiple people who said they wanted to practice X in an office where we only do Y. we had one guy who couldn't make eye contact tell us he wanted to do litigation. we had someone who flat out could not speak english. and this was at my law school--so i wanted to cut it some slack. but it was BAD.

look, maybe we just got unlucky with the lottery. or maybe my firm suddenly has a bad reputation that i don't know about that weakened our pre-select crop. but, really, the simplest and most likely explanation is that our interview slots are now being filled by less attractive candidates due to the falling admissions standards at the school.

btw - we gave one call-back from my room of ~20 interviews, and it was to somebody that probably already has 10-20 callbacks. normally, we'd expect to give 4-5. i don't know what we'll do to fill the ranks, but i got the distinct impression from my partner co-interviewer that we might start putting fewer resources into OCIs outside the top 5-10 schools.


I recognize that you don't see their stats, but you're still essentially stating that UGPA/LSAT is somehow correlated to basic professionalism now. By that logic the students at t50 and above are just drooling piles of mush who submit resumes written in crayon.

This seems to reflect more on that school's Career Office than anything else in terms of cover letters and practice area fuck-ups.

I've never had a dog in this tier of OCI, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a large part of the draw of recruiting exclusively from prestigious schools the ability to bill outrageously for them, rather than their inherent ability to practice law?
I get that it's weird for a wannabe litigator associate not to make eye contact, but I was under the impression that, in biglaw, no junior associate even goes to court and no first year does depositions; a lot of the assignments involve relatively simple stuff that can be billed like toiling away writing memos or doing doc review. They burn out after 3 years, rinse and repeat with another crop of "pedigreed" candidates you can bill for.
Last edited by fauxpsych on Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Atmosphere

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Atmosphere » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:ANYway...

What the hell is going on?


If the aspie-ness of these replies is in any way indicative of the general applicant pool, I'd wager that we're looking at a non-negligent decline in applicant quality ----> less CBs / More Concentrated CBs.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:49 am

Just to be clear, folks - I think there is room for discussion of problems with this year's OCI and I'm not going to out anyone for posting anon about this (so people can stop reporting the posts). But speculation about how race/ethnicity/shoe size helps/hurts is unproductive and not a discussion we're going to have here because it's too close to the way the AA discussions always went before we corralled them to one thread. (Basically however you couch the "I'm X and that hurt me" you're insulting someone.) So if that discussion continues this thread is getting locked.

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:52 am

Atmosphere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:ANYway...

What the hell is going on?


If the aspie-ness of these replies is in any way indicative of the general applicant pool, I'd wager that we're looking at a non-negligent decline in applicant quality ----> less CBs / More Concentrated CBs.


Am I not getting callbacks because I'm an aspie? That really hurts.

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:54 am

I was feeling bad for some of you, but the excuses and blaming affirmative action, white privilege, or whatever other reason makes me feel less so.

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Atmosphere

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Atmosphere » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Atmosphere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:ANYway...

What the hell is going on?


If the aspie-ness of these replies is in any way indicative of the general applicant pool, I'd wager that we're looking at a non-negligent decline in applicant quality ----> less CBs / More Concentrated CBs.


Am I not getting callbacks because I'm an aspie? That really hurts.


/s

But really, it's been laid out for you:

- 180k
- Declining applicant pool
- ????

Anonymous User
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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:58 am

to wrap up what everyone seems to be saying in here - up and down T1 schools people are seeing weird CB patterns.
theoretically this is because of pre-oci and 1l summers either already filling up classes or maybe sitting on multiple offers. people in both of those groups would have ended up with callbacks/offers so all that is really changing is that firms are either going to call back fewer people for fewer spots but with less real competition (market wide at least) because people have already been taken out of the running OR firms are calling back fewer people immediately because they are unsure of the shape their class is going to take and so will likely have to move later to fill in holes. either way, hold on it'll be a weird ride.

Edit - and yes, some ppl are fine. some ppl are always fine. some ppl came through 2008-2009-2010 totally fine too. this is not meant to bring up AA stuff. I just mean some ppl happen to end up at firms that were basically normal, or wanted to work in fields that were doing well and so their career continued unchanged through the recession
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:to wrap up what everyone seems to be saying in here - up and down T1 schools people are seeing weird CB patterns.
theoretically this is because of pre-oci and 1l summers either already filling up classes or maybe sitting on multiple offers. people in both of those groups would have ended up with callbacks/offers so all that is really changing is that firms are either going to call back fewer people for fewer spots but with less real competition (market wide at least) because people have already been taken out of the running OR firms are calling back fewer people immediately because they are unsure of the shape their class is going to take and so will likely have to move later to fill in holes. either way, hold on it'll be a weird ride.


That and that we're stupid. But work on improving yourself.

Anonymous User
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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:02 pm

Is there really a problem this year or is this thread full of a handful of median kids who aren't getting CB...which happens every year.

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:03 pm

Atmosphere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Atmosphere wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:ANYway...

What the hell is going on?


If the aspie-ness of these replies is in any way indicative of the general applicant pool, I'd wager that we're looking at a non-negligent decline in applicant quality ----> less CBs / More Concentrated CBs.


Am I not getting callbacks because I'm an aspie? That really hurts.


/s

But really, it's been laid out for you:

- 180k
- Declining applicant pool
- ????


Is there any evidence that $180K has led to smaller summer associate class size? From what I've heard at my interviews and callbacks, it is the opposite, many firms are growing/increasing the size of their summer class next year.

Anonymous User
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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:04 pm

I'm still not entirely persuaded that we actually are seeing a decline in CBs. Everything is anecdotal, and there are plenty of counterpoints. In person, things will always skew towards the "everything's fine" end, while on TLS, it'll always skew towards "the sky is falling." This seems like every other year (and I've been around here for the past few), just with more hysteria.

I think the decline in the applicant pool argument is silly; we're talking about large law firms, and the work that most junior associates do doesn't require any particular brilliance. It's an arm's race for the best talent, sure, but at the end of the day firms have a pretty good idea of the class size they're looking for, and they're going to get that class size even if it means digging a little bit deeper.

Seems better to wait for the dust to clear before diagnosing, let alone attributing the change to some tangentially-related factor. Regardless, the script for the people struggling to get CBs has not changed.

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:07 pm

I'm not buying any of the justifications being given here. I'm at a lower T14, and every person I know well enough to discuss OCI with killed it. 7+ callbacks. My circle of friends is not particularly bright either.

If you didn't do well at OCI, that sucks and I truly hope something happens for you right around the corner. But I really don't think excuses A B and C are the reason - it's you.

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Re: What the hell is going on

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is there really a problem this year or is this thread full of a handful of median kids who aren't getting CB...which happens every year.


I'm at Y well above median. I could be a poor interviewer, but traditionally that hasn't mattered this much at the top of the class.



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