T10; Will I get an SA?

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michmk29

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby michmk29 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Uh people tend to like me, i'm 6'3 and handsome, and I can hold a conversation about sports/pop culture/pretty much anything. I honestly don't understand how people this risk averse manage to do anything without freaking out about the potential consequences. If you're willing to spend hour after mind numbing hour mass mailing when you know damn well there is a infinitesimal chance you end up without an offer, how do you justify driving, drinking heavily or playing contact sports. I honestly don't get it sometimes.


Thing is, the world of big law is full of lots of different personalities and you need to be smart about who you're targeting and how.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:39 pm

My advice - your grades and resume are only enough to get you in the door. You need to do the rest with solid preparation, a charismatic personality, and a demonstrated interest in the firm and what they do. In other words, you aren't guaranteed an SA because of your school's rank or your GPA. People get dinged at top schools because they probably assumed otherwise.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:24 pm

I'm not saying you need to mass mail with the intensity of someone with lesser stats, but you should clearly not rely solely on OCI.

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cron1834

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby cron1834 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:47 pm

bk1 wrote:I'm not saying you need to mass mail with the intensity of someone with lesser stats, but you should clearly not rely solely on OCI.

Yeah, I don't understand this moronic "I'm handsome and have good grades, I shouldn't have to email 400 firms" trope. MM means different things in different contexts. If you have shit grades, you probably should email a couple hundred firms. But even top of the class people should selectively apply before OCI. OCI is not a fun process, even for successful students, and you could bypass it entirely (or at least enter it without any pressure).

The yield-protect thing is also real.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:46 am

I would challenge anyone to provide an example of someone who struck out at a T14 school from the top of their class. I agree that selective targeting can be a good thing, but blasting off emails to the Pillsburys of the world is just stupid if you have a 3.97 from Penn or something. It does make a lot of sense to reach out to firms that are known to give out pre OCI offers - like Skadden - but spending your summer stressing and mass mailing, not to mention going on callbacks with firms you don't want to work at, seems ridiculous to me. At some point, the neuroticism and constant fear of failure needs to abate a little. Because it will sure as hell come roaring back when you're a first year.

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pancakes3

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:00 am

1) mass mailing really doesn't take that much work. it's not like people are stuffing envelopes or anything. you spend like 2-3 hrs for a few afternoons and sent out some emails. it's like 1/10 the work for LR/journal.

2) not everyone is 6'3, devilishly handsome, and knows everything there is to know about sport/pop culture/etc. you know your classmates. some are tools. some are assholes. others are nebbish. women have a tougher time making smalltalk. not every piece of OCI advice is tailor made for your specific, charmed, privileged situation - you studly snowflake, you.

3) the odds arne't infinitessimal. hyperbole or not, that's just a poor choice of words. people don't mass mail for the chance of it working - people mass mail because it works. 5% of success is not 0% chance.

4) lol @ contact sports. basketball isn't a contact sport, rugby is for late bloomers whose mommy's didn't let them play HS football, and MMA/boxing bros don't brag about being MMA/boxing bros.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:19 am

pancakes3 wrote:1) mass mailing really doesn't take that much work. it's not like people are stuffing envelopes or anything. you spend like 2-3 hrs for a few afternoons and sent out some emails. it's like 1/10 the work for LR/journal.

2) not everyone is 6'3, devilishly handsome, and knows everything there is to know about sport/pop culture/etc. you know your classmates. some are tools. some are assholes. others are nebbish. women have a tougher time making smalltalk. not every piece of OCI advice is tailor made for your specific, charmed, privileged situation - you studly snowflake, you.

3) the odds arne't infinitessimal. hyperbole or not, that's just a poor choice of words. people don't mass mail for the chance of it working - people mass mail because it works. 5% of success is not 0% chance.

4) lol @ contact sports. basketball isn't a contact sport, rugby is for late bloomers whose mommy's didn't let them play HS football, and MMA/boxing bros don't brag about being MMA/boxing bros.


Really?

Also you didn't really address my point. I 100% agree that mass mailing is TCR for most law students. I'm just not sure it is necessary for some of them. I also think that constant stress about failure is unhealthy, and if you really crushed 1L you might as well relax for a bit. Because you have your whole career to be a neurotic mess, you might as well take advantage of the short amount of time you have to chill.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:22 am

Can't you relax after you have your 2L SA locked up? I'm also not sure that covering all your bases is the same as frenzied panic and pessimism about your future.

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cron1834

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby cron1834 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:36 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Can't you relax after you have your 2L SA locked up? I'm also not sure that covering all your bases is the same as frenzied panic and pessimism about your future.

Yes, lots of arrogant bros in this thread (who are probably a lot less charming than they believe) are simply refusing to distinguish between carpet bombing the entire NLJ250 and sending out a few extra resumes. Also, not every selective firm comes to every T14. Also II, there are certain geographies that make MM a literal requirement, bc they're not traveling cross country to interview on campus. At any point on the GPA curve it makes little sense to rely exclusively on OCI. Maybe "mass" mailing isn't precisely accurate, but everyone should certainly send out non-OCI resumes.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:43 pm

No one, least of all Captain Smiley at Yale, should be so consumed by Payne and Fears to the point of waking up in a cold sweat and sending out some half-assed slapped together piece of garbage cold email to the Seyfarth Shaws of the world.

Come on dude, pull it together. You're not even talking about what TLS means by "mass mail." And please stop using the anonymous posting feature just to troll the forum you silly goose.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:38 pm

Alright Alright y'all make good points. Although idk why everyone needs to be so hostile all the time. Not to mention the guy that was running around making brazenly sexist generalizations. I'd rather be an arrogant bro than a hostile dick. And IIRC the original assertions I was arguing with were "Even top of the class at Yale should be mass blasting apps" and "massmailing advice applies equally to everyone regardless of school or rank."

If you have fuck you grades, nailing down an offer during the summer is the smart thing to do. But you can afford to be a little picky about it. At some point on the curve, the power dynamic flips and firms are fighting over you.

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pancakes3

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:56 pm

sexist dick here. i'm just relaying what i've been told female friends post-OCI. they all found it difficult to toe the line between personable and professional in CBs, even with female attorneys. guys have an easy chit-chat fall-back with sports and can generally be a bit more lax in interviews. i don't think that's a particularly sexist pill to swallow. it sucks, and the situation is sexist but i don't think i'm being sexist for acknowledging it.

also i'm glad you're harping on the female comment but not taking the nebbish/awkward comment to heart. anecdotally i know a guy who graduated T6 a few years back with above median grades but had a tough time getting a gig because he had a stutter. lit wasn't in his future but he wanted to do corp anyway. ended up in bigfed but he struck out in OCI.

the point is, even with fuck-you grades, grades net you the screener but you still need to do reasonably well to get a CB, and ultimately an offer. there are a lot of potential faux pas along the way where someone can strike out. being quasi-job-secure as a 1L with sick grades and a 1L SA puts YOU, brave anon, in an enviable situation but you're the 1% of the 1% here. the general advice to massmail applies to the general public. hyperbole may have been used but even if you are literally the top of the class at Yale, how about you just keep your mouth shut and let the rest of your colleagues email in peace instead of interjecting and trying to find the bright line between who needs to mass mail and who doesn't?

again, just SUCH a brave anon.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:00 pm

Why are you so personally offended by a suggestion that some people should take it easy? One of my buddies is similarly at the top of the class and he's been tearing his hair out over OCI and having zero fun all summer because of how stressed he is. It's lunacy.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Also, the whole "I'm just pointing out a truth so whatever i'm saying can't be sexist" trope is just such bullshit. A one line generalization that "small talk is harder for women" is sexist no matter how many women have mentioned their experiences with interview small talk to you/how many black friends you have.

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pancakes3

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:14 pm

i'm sure your career services is flooding your inbox with all sorts of shit about OCI. GPA cutoffs, etc, the info is out there and at this point your grades are your grades. People who are tearing their hair out won't stop tearing their hair out because TLS tells them to stop.

however, if someone wants to come on and ask about MM advice, they'll get MM advice*. you coming in and saying "well i'm set, so MM isn't for me, or those similarly situated" really is a non-sequitur at best, but closer to a humblebrag.

the rest is just a conversation. a bit heated but ain't nobody mad. u mad?

*i think MM really does bridge an inefficiency in the hiring process. it helps people crack non-NYC markets, and helps sub-median T14 and non-T14 students have a shot at the models and bottles life. it has value. depending on your particular career goals, maybe not but i don't think there's a bright line as to who *needs* to and who doesn't.

edit to add: are you saying that i'm personally sexist for making the statement, the "truth" that i'm asserting is incorrect, or the situation itself is sexist?

i do have black friends. many. if every one of them tells me that they've been followed in stores, am i racist in saying that black people get followed in stores? it's not a trope. it just is. sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:35 pm

Mass mailing is not "necessary" for anybody, but it's just foolish not to expand your search beyond OCI whether you're raking in feeder clerkships or about to fail out. Obviously it is more important for some people than others.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Why are you so personally offended by a suggestion that some people should take it easy? One of my buddies is similarly at the top of the class and he's been tearing his hair out over OCI and having zero fun all summer because of how stressed he is. It's lunacy.

I'm pretty sure someone like that is going to tear their hair out over OCI regardless of whether he MMs or not. Let him cook.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:07 pm

I would not have gotten the job I now have at a market-paying small firm, or realized that that is what I want or that such a job exists in my practice area, had I limited myself to OCI. I had good 1L grades at HYS and was on law review.

I also summered at a large firm in a major market. I got the position through OCI, but I might not have gotten it without mass mailing. Bidding was competitive in this market and I was at a big advantage because I didn't have to use up high bids on popular firms that I had already interviewed with.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:36 pm

I AM THE OP!

So I've sent out about 35 mailings. However, they have been very specific to places I want to work and firms that specialize in what my background is (lit) and I conveyed that in the email.

Seems like this thread has gone to extremes. I'm just wondering if what I've done, i.e., be a transfer at Berkeley and sent 35 or so mailings to strategic firms, is, lets say, enough to give me a pretty good chance at landing a gig.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I AM THE OP!

So I've sent out about 35 mailings. However, they have been very specific to places I want to work and firms that specialize in what my background is (lit) and I conveyed that in the email.

Seems like this thread has gone to extremes. I'm just wondering if what I've done, i.e., be a transfer at Berkeley and sent 35 or so mailings to strategic firms, is, lets say, enough to give me a pretty good chance at landing a gig.


nien.

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Re: T10; Will I get an SA?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I AM THE OP!

So I've sent out about 35 mailings. However, they have been very specific to places I want to work and firms that specialize in what my background is (lit) and I conveyed that in the email.

Seems like this thread has gone to extremes. I'm just wondering if what I've done, i.e., be a transfer at Berkeley and sent 35 or so mailings to strategic firms, is, lets say, enough to give me a pretty good chance at landing a gig.

You're not getting it

No one can quantify your chances. And you should keep blasting.



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