I made a mistake going to law school

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fauxpsych

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby fauxpsych » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:55 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Applying to 20-30 clerkships isn't going to get you one.


TCR.


don't mean to derail but how hard is it to get non A3 clerkships?



"It depends".


Clearly it's easier than an A3 clerkship, especially in NJ where there is a robust state court clerkship program. Stolen from a career services email:

"Each year, 450+ New Jersey Superior Court judges offer a one-year post graduate clerkship opportunity with trial level (Superior Court) judges in the Family, Criminal and Civil Divisions. These positions are full time, and pay $47,018 per year. Vacation and health benefits are included. In addition, these positions do not require one to take or pass the New Jersey bar, and do not require New Jersey residence."

They are all essentially personal hires, so you end up mass mailing every single judge. NJ Appellate judges also hire clerks (at a slighter hire payrate) I got a couple of interview requests but I got my ideal position elsewhere and never actually went in to interview. Since bar passage isn't required I'm curious to know why OP never tried to land one until now.


In NY, there isn't really an equivalent program. In my experience, NY trial judges tend to have full time, experienced (i.e. not just out of law school) court attorneys and don't like to cycle through clerks every year. Some judges do, but they are the exception. Same for the 1st and 2nd Department of the Appellate Division. However the 3rd and 4th Department in New York has a fairly competitive clerkship program where you join a "pool" of clerks. The 4th Department clerkship pays something like 80k which goes far in Rochester, but the drawback is you have to live in Rochester. NY Court of Appeals clerkships are fairly competitive, a classmate of mine (Class of 2016) landed one but it doesn't start until August 2017.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:57 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Applying to 20-30 clerkships isn't going to get you one.


TCR.


don't mean to derail but how hard is it to get non A3 clerkships?

Depends on the student/school/judge. Assuming the OP isn't at C or N, it will probably require some combo of ties/connections/good grades, grades less so for state trial-level (I'm not that familiar with NYC trial courts but I suspect there's a lot of competition just bc it's NYC).

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby smallfirmassociate » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:34 pm

L_William_W wrote:Every judge that I've met was a narcissistic asshole.


That you would say this is a huge red flag for me. I'm trying to be constructive when I mention the saying: if you meet one asshole a day, you met one asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole, then you're the asshole.

Obviously that's harsh, and you certainly could have a legitimate experience of dealing with a bad set of judges. It's just a red flag because it is so far from my experience in both state and federal courts. I've met my share of arrogant judges, nit-picky judges, and judges with short attention spans. I've met an asshole or two.

Aside from that, you're telling a story that is fairly common. Maybe find a kind of "JD-preferred" or "law-lite" (sic) type of position. Lots of options if you're patient and apply all over the country. Lobbying / special interest groups. Teaching. Private company or fed gov't agency compliance. Trust or insurance work.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby L_William_W » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:38 pm

fauxpsych wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Applying to 20-30 clerkships isn't going to get you one.


TCR.


Since bar passage isn't required I'm curious to know why OP never tried to land one until now.


I didn't have any NJ connections at the time. I attended law school in NYC. I didn't bother applying to a clerkship in NY since my grades were mediocre. However, I took and passed the NJ bar. What I'm hoping for is a judge picking me over a graduate who isn't admitted yet.

fauxpsych

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby fauxpsych » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:55 pm

L_William_W wrote:
fauxpsych wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Applying to 20-30 clerkships isn't going to get you one.


TCR.


Since bar passage isn't required I'm curious to know why OP never tried to land one until now.


I didn't have any NJ connections at the time. I attended law school in NYC. I didn't bother applying to a clerkship in NY since my grades were mediocre. However, I took and passed the NJ bar. What I'm hoping for is a judge picking me over a graduate who isn't admitted yet.


That is bullshit, OP.

I went to the same law school as you, had a bunch of C's, and also have no NJ connections. The NJ Clerkships aren't a secret and our Career Services pushes them on everyone as a backup. They even pay for postage and printing for the hundreds (note, not 20-30) of resumes and applications that need to be sent to each individual judge.

Clearly what you have been doing doesn't work.
Cut this "woe is me" bullshit and actually get out there and hustle rather than blaming everything else and waiting for a lucky break. If you can't even advocate for yourself, what place will trust you to advocate on their behalf?

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby HonestAdvice » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:59 pm

smallfirmassociate wrote:
L_William_W wrote:Every judge that I've met was a narcissistic asshole.


That you would say this is a huge red flag for me. I'm trying to be constructive when I mention the saying: if you meet one asshole a day, you met one asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole, then you're the asshole.

Obviously that's harsh, and you certainly could have a legitimate experience of dealing with a bad set of judges. It's just a red flag because it is so far from my experience in both state and federal courts. I've met my share of arrogant judges, nit-picky judges, and judges with short attention spans. I've met an asshole or two.

Aside from that, you're telling a story that is fairly common. Maybe find a kind of "JD-preferred" or "law-lite" (sic) type of position. Lots of options if you're patient and apply all over the country. Lobbying / special interest groups. Teaching. Private company or fed gov't agency compliance. Trust or insurance work.

I don't think OP's from NYC. People from NYC tend to have a set of characteristics you'd normally find in assholes, but in most cases they're as nice as anyone else. If OP just met them for a half hour or so it's entirely possible anyone from outside the area would think they're all assholes. You'd also imagine running a NYC court requires a different tone than you'd find in an office.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby kaysta » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:14 pm

fauxpsych wrote:
L_William_W wrote:
fauxpsych wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Applying to 20-30 clerkships isn't going to get you one.


TCR.


Since bar passage isn't required I'm curious to know why OP never tried to land one until now.


I didn't have any NJ connections at the time. I attended law school in NYC. I didn't bother applying to a clerkship in NY since my grades were mediocre. However, I took and passed the NJ bar. What I'm hoping for is a judge picking me over a graduate who isn't admitted yet.


That is bullshit, OP.

I went to the same law school as you, had a bunch of C's, and also have no NJ connections. The NJ Clerkships aren't a secret and our Career Services pushes them on everyone as a backup. They even pay for postage and printing for the hundreds (note, not 20-30) of resumes and applications that need to be sent to each individual judge.

Clearly what you have been doing doesn't work.
Cut this "woe is me" bullshit and actually get out there and hustle rather than blaming everything else and waiting for a lucky break. If you can't even advocate for yourself, what place will trust you to advocate on their behalf?


And thread degenerates into abuse or strangely random commentary

The sheer volume of "pushes them on everyone as a backup" is what will work against you in NJ, OP.
Network. And don't make bar passage your selling point. If a clerkship is in fact your goal.

fauxpsych

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby fauxpsych » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
fauxpsych wrote:
L_William_W wrote:
fauxpsych wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Applying to 20-30 clerkships isn't going to get you one.


TCR.


Since bar passage isn't required I'm curious to know why OP never tried to land one until now.


I didn't have any NJ connections at the time. I attended law school in NYC. I didn't bother applying to a clerkship in NY since my grades were mediocre. However, I took and passed the NJ bar. What I'm hoping for is a judge picking me over a graduate who isn't admitted yet.


That is bullshit, OP.

I went to the same law school as you, had a bunch of C's, and also have no NJ connections. The NJ Clerkships aren't a secret and our Career Services pushes them on everyone as a backup. They even pay for postage and printing for the hundreds (note, not 20-30) of resumes and applications that need to be sent to each individual judge.

Clearly what you have been doing doesn't work.
Cut this "woe is me" bullshit and actually get out there and hustle rather than blaming everything else and waiting for a lucky break. If you can't even advocate for yourself, what place will trust you to advocate on their behalf?


And thread degenerates into abuse or strangely random commentary

The sheer volume of "pushes them on everyone as a backup" is what will work against you in NJ, OP.
Network. And don't make bar passage your selling point. If a clerkship is in fact your goal.


And unnecessary anon...

kaysta

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby kaysta » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:56 pm

and...didn't you just do the same thing in another thread?
this thread is not about you, buddy

L_William_W

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby L_William_W » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:57 pm

So just to wrap this up, over the next few months, I'll send out a lot of resumes and cover letters and I'll also kiss a lot of asses. And in the worst case scenario, I'll see if I can get an income-based repayment plan for my loans.

Three years of my life wasted for bullshit. Nevertheless, I might as well try to turn sour lemons into lemonade.

imalreadyamember?

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby imalreadyamember? » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:36 am

L_William_W wrote:So just to wrap this up, over the next few months, I'll send out a lot of resumes and cover letters and I'll also kiss a lot of asses. And in the worst case scenario, I'll see if I can get an income-based repayment plan for my loans.

Three years of my life wasted for bullshit. Nevertheless, I might as well try to turn sour lemons into lemonade.


No. Do this now. Even if you get a job. If you do it now they'll have your income as $0 for 1 year until you have to renew it. Do it asap.

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JCougar

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby JCougar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:59 am

zot1 wrote:
mrs.miawallace wrote:entertaining twist of a so far supportive thread


Unless things have changed, you can't just waltz into a government or legal aid job. Also, the former isn't necessarily low paying.


So true.

Desirable government or legal aid jobs (both of which qualify for PSLF) are harder to obtain than even Biglaw. Everybody knows they'd be happier working in such an environment, and the PSLF takes care of the low salary. However both are currently severely underfunded, and there's hardly any job openings. If you don't qualify for Biglaw, you likely won't qualify for any government or legal aid job, no matter how hard you network and/or work at it.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby JCougar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:05 am

zot1 wrote:Depends.

If state clerkship, general knowledge is that you need state ties.

If bankruptcy, people say you need demonstrated commitment but I know people who've gotten them without ever taking bankruptcy classes.

Not sure how it works with other courts and admin boards.


This post is overly optimistic. One of my lifelong friends is the grandson of a former state Supreme Court justice. His parents are also lawyers.

He currently works in shitlaw, and can't pay his loans off.

What you said is not necessarily wrong, but let me clarify by saying that state ties are necessary, but definitely not sufficient, even in the extreme, for getting a state court clerkship.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby lavarman84 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:08 am

Damn, OP, now I feel like an asshole for my comment in that other thread. Sorry to hear about your struggles, man. Just keep trying to find something. Kiss asses, keep applying, and something will stick.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby lacrossebrother » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:11 am

JCougar wrote:
zot1 wrote:
mrs.miawallace wrote:entertaining twist of a so far supportive thread


Unless things have changed, you can't just waltz into a government or legal aid job. Also, the former isn't necessarily low paying.


So true.

Desirable government or legal aid jobs (both of which qualify for PSLF) are harder to obtain than even Biglaw. Everybody knows they'd be happier working in such an environment, and the PSLF takes care of the low salary. However both are currently severely underfunded, and there's hardly any job openings. If you don't qualify for Biglaw, you likely won't qualify for any government or legal aid job, no matter how hard you network and/or work at it.

Lol what

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby lavarman84 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:12 am

JCougar wrote:
zot1 wrote:Depends.

If state clerkship, general knowledge is that you need state ties.

If bankruptcy, people say you need demonstrated commitment but I know people who've gotten them without ever taking bankruptcy classes.

Not sure how it works with other courts and admin boards.


This post is overly optimistic. One of my lifelong friends is the grandson of a former state Supreme Court justice. His parents are also lawyers.

He currently works in shitlaw, and can't pay his loans off.

What you said is not necessarily wrong, but let me clarify by saying that state ties are necessary, but definitely not sufficient, even in the extreme, for getting a state court clerkship.


Can his parents not help him out? If his grandfather was a State Supreme Court Justice and his parents are lawyers, you'd think they'd have the connections to help him get a better job. Does he want to do it on his own?

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby kaysta » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:15 am

L_William_W wrote:So just to wrap this up, over the next few months, I'll send out a lot of resumes and cover letters and I'll also kiss a lot of asses. And in the worst case scenario, I'll see if I can get an income-based repayment plan for my loans.

Three years of my life wasted for bullshit. Nevertheless, I might as well try to turn sour lemons into lemonade.

yes, great, this is a good attitude adjustment. although this won't be enough, due to the above referenced issues of competition and volume etc
In case it's not entirely clear: in your situation, you really need to seek out someone with a personal connection for an NJ clerkship
I know of two cases in which this specific action resulted in a clerkship. I was not the applicant in either case. Edit: ehhh, at least one. I can't actually verify the extent to which networking was directly responsible for securing both clerkships, I wasn't involved. I'd speculate that it was huge. anyway, just do it.
Last edited by kaysta on Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JCougar

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby JCougar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:08 am

lawman84 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
zot1 wrote:Depends.

If state clerkship, general knowledge is that you need state ties.

If bankruptcy, people say you need demonstrated commitment but I know people who've gotten them without ever taking bankruptcy classes.

Not sure how it works with other courts and admin boards.


This post is overly optimistic. One of my lifelong friends is the grandson of a former state Supreme Court justice. His parents are also lawyers.

He currently works in shitlaw, and can't pay his loans off.

What you said is not necessarily wrong, but let me clarify by saying that state ties are necessary, but definitely not sufficient, even in the extreme, for getting a state court clerkship.


Can his parents not help him out? If his grandfather was a State Supreme Court Justice and his parents are lawyers, you'd think they'd have the connections to help him get a better job. Does he want to do it on his own?


His parents are retiring and giving him all their clients, but even that's not enough with modern law school debt taken into account. Thing is, he went to a somewhat TTT law school, and nobody is hiring anyways. Biglaw partners can't even get their own relatives good legal jobs in this market.

People really have to realize that there is no generation of lawyers in history graduating with such a ridiculous amount of debt. People also really have to realize that there is no generation of lawyers in history graduating into such an over-saturated market.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby zot1 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:06 am

JCougar wrote:
zot1 wrote:Depends.

If state clerkship, general knowledge is that you need state ties.

If bankruptcy, people say you need demonstrated commitment but I know people who've gotten them without ever taking bankruptcy classes.

Not sure how it works with other courts and admin boards.


This post is overly optimistic. One of my lifelong friends is the grandson of a former state Supreme Court justice. His parents are also lawyers.

He currently works in shitlaw, and can't pay his loans off.

What you said is not necessarily wrong, but let me clarify by saying that state ties are necessary, but definitely not sufficient, even in the extreme, for getting a state court clerkship.


I mean, of course you need decent grades and extracurriculars and whatever else. That is my mistake for assuming this is a given.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:11 am

JCougar wrote:
zot1 wrote:
mrs.miawallace wrote:entertaining twist of a so far supportive thread


Unless things have changed, you can't just waltz into a government or legal aid job. Also, the former isn't necessarily low paying.


So true.

Desirable government or legal aid jobs (both of which qualify for PSLF) are harder to obtain than even Biglaw. Everybody knows they'd be happier working in such an environment, and the PSLF takes care of the low salary. However both are currently severely underfunded, and there's hardly any job openings. If you don't qualify for Biglaw, you likely won't qualify for any government or legal aid job, no matter how hard you network and/or work at it.



This is objectively not true. I'm interning at one of the best PD offices in the country, think PDS, Bronx Defenders, Orleans Defenders and while there is a huge number of extremely well-credentialed T14 graduates (some even with appellate clerkships), close to half of the attorneys went to TTT's or TTTT's and didn't even make honors (or just a pathetic cum laude). This is likely even more true at less national/elite PD offices. PI jobs are much more accessible than biglaw to non-elite law school graduates. If your comment was revised to saying that for elite law school graduates it's easier to get biglaw than ELITE PI, you'd perhaps be correct.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby zot1 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
JCougar wrote:
zot1 wrote:
mrs.miawallace wrote:entertaining twist of a so far supportive thread


Unless things have changed, you can't just waltz into a government or legal aid job. Also, the former isn't necessarily low paying.


So true.

Desirable government or legal aid jobs (both of which qualify for PSLF) are harder to obtain than even Biglaw. Everybody knows they'd be happier working in such an environment, and the PSLF takes care of the low salary. However both are currently severely underfunded, and there's hardly any job openings. If you don't qualify for Biglaw, you likely won't qualify for any government or legal aid job, no matter how hard you network and/or work at it.



This is objectively not true. I'm interning at one of the best PD offices in the country, think PDS, Bronx Defenders, Orleans Defenders and while there is a huge number of extremely well-credentialed T14 graduates (some even with appellate clerkships), close to half of the attorneys went to TTT's or TTTT's and didn't even make honors (or just a pathetic cum laude). This is likely even more true at less national/elite PD offices. PI jobs are much more accessible than biglaw to non-elite law school graduates. If your comment was revised to saying that for elite law school graduates it's easier to get biglaw than ELITE PI, you'd perhaps be correct.


Not all jobs are created equal. Getting a job at the City of Los Angeles is not as easy as getting a job at the City of Whatever. Getting a job at ACLU is not as easy as getting a job at Whatever.

DA and PD are different beasts than other government because of high turnover rates and need for bodies.

Less prestigious PI offices are still hard to get into. You could technically work for any PI office as long as you secure your own funding. I don't consider that a job, that's a fellowship.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby JCougar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is objectively not true. I'm interning at one of the best PD offices in the country, think PDS, Bronx Defenders, Orleans Defenders and while there is a huge number of extremely well-credentialed T14 graduates (some even with appellate clerkships), close to half of the attorneys went to TTT's or TTTT's and didn't even make honors (or just a pathetic cum laude). This is likely even more true at less national/elite PD offices. PI jobs are much more accessible than biglaw to non-elite law school graduates. If your comment was revised to saying that for elite law school graduates it's easier to get biglaw than ELITE PI, you'd perhaps be correct.


You're not factoring in the (likely, if we're talking about Bronx-level) tens of thousands of attorney job applicants they have turned away in the past few years.

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Re: I made a mistake going to law school

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:50 pm

If L_William is still around: I'd be willing to try to get you in touch with someone from a TTT who secured a clerkship outside the usual channels, or at least find out exactly who he talked to. I always feel bad for people who don't know how to network for whatever reason



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