Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:59 pm
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This article from last year isn't quite as dire, but focuses on someone who went to CLS.A. Nony Mouse wrote:Much as I love TLS, I agree that the NYT, hmm, shall we say it has more gravitas than TLS? I agree there's plenty of info out there for those who search, but it would still be nice to see one of the NYT articles that doesn't focus on a bottom feeder school.
this right here. NYT has more gravitas, but gravitas doesnt preclude an editorial slant, and NYT should be read as critically (perhaps in a different way, filtering for different things) as TLS, and same goes for any other media outlet...particularly as they put more of their content and layout online...dont know why so many students won't do this.Barack O'Drama wrote: ...I think the circumstances would be different if the internet didn't exist or the employment rankings weren't published...
I agree with everything you say about reading critically, but I'm a bit confused. Its seems like you say they slant towards thinking everyone should go to law school no matter what the outcome, but they write one of these articles a couple times a year profiling people who have terrible outcomes from bad schools. It seems like these articles should be read more as a warning, than an endorsement of the idea that "everyone should have the chance to go to law school, however shit the school."kaysta wrote:this right here. NYT has more gravitas, but gravitas doesnt preclude an editorial slant, and NYT should be read as critically (perhaps in a different way, filtering for different things) as TLS, and same goes for any other media outlet...particularly as they put more of their content and layout online...dont know why so many students won't do this.Barack O'Drama wrote: ...I think the circumstances would be different if the internet didn't exist or the employment rankings weren't published...
NYT's angle--from what I recall--seems to be that everyone should have the chance to go to law school, however shit the school is, and theyre sympathetic, but they can't reconcile that with their other stance that the economy is recovering and all is good
Even on PAYE, a $200k bill after 20 years of minimum payments plus the tax bomb is still gonna add up to $200k in the end. It would have to be much greater salary premium that actually occurs for the math to add up.JohannDeMann wrote:Meh, even if that guy is wrong that there isn't a $400k present value to a law education, PAYE and PLSF basically mean if you get a salary that is 10% higher than what you were doing before, it's a positive outcome still. The people in that article had dog shit for career opportunities. Now they at least have a dice where 20% isn't dog shit and the other 80% is still the same dog shit they had before.
It's also free money from the government that lets you increase your leverage, so as long as the investment has a positive return (anything greater than .01%) it's not a dumb idea to go.
Wait, you mean to tell me that this guy thinks you should pay $53k in tuition to the school that gives him $141k a year to work maybe 30 hours a week, set his own schedule, take summers off and have the job for life?AndroidLawyer wrote:"Law School a Solid Investment, Despite Pay Discrepancies"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/busin ... f=dealbook
I do feel bad because some people don't know to even get educated about this. Or worse, they see schools like Valpo as their only choice to fulfill a dream.Anonymous User wrote:This.yay wrote:hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.
ah, lets see here, whatd I say-- its not well formulated, wrote that while half asleep.October25 wrote: I agree with everything you say about reading critically, but I'm a bit confused. Its seems like you say they slant towards thinking everyone should go to law school no matter what the outcome, but they write one of these articles a couple times a year profiling people who have terrible outcomes from bad schools. It seems like these articles should be read more as a warning, than an endorsement of the idea that "everyone should have the chance to go to law school, however shit the school."
Or am I misunderstanding your point?
This is not a reason to knowingly crushing your life. How does this make someone more sympathetic?zot1 wrote:I do feel bad because some people don't know to even get educated about this. Or worse, they see schools like Valpo as their only choice to fulfill a dream.Anonymous User wrote:This.yay wrote:hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/25/busin ... krupt.htmlOctober25 wrote:Does anyone have a link to
Because they don't know they are crushing their lives. They think I've done manual labor since I was little and so has everyone else in my family. If I can become an attorney, I can improve myself and my whole family. You have to grow up in a certain social class to get this. I'm happy that you and most people here don't.yay wrote:This is not a reason to knowingly crushing your life. How does this make someone more sympathetic?zot1 wrote:I do feel bad because some people don't know to even get educated about this. Or worse, they see schools like Valpo as their only choice to fulfill a dream.Anonymous User wrote:This.yay wrote:hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.
On a personal level I think the individuals are responsible, but as a matter of policy we really should shut down some of these schools.pancakes3 wrote:i don't buy the patronizing slant of the working class applicant being duped and dazzled by the bright lights of biglaw. being a bumpkin is no excuse for forgoing your due dilligence into the field of your choice. at the very least you've got to recognize the enormity of the debt and figure out if you can service that debt - even with a 160k salary.
I think it'd be a more easily implemented poicy to control who gets loans than to decide which schools live and which schools die.Capitol_Idea wrote:On a personal level I think the individuals are responsible, but as a matter of policy we really should shut down some of these schools.pancakes3 wrote:i don't buy the patronizing slant of the working class applicant being duped and dazzled by the bright lights of biglaw. being a bumpkin is no excuse for forgoing your due dilligence into the field of your choice. at the very least you've got to recognize the enormity of the debt and figure out if you can service that debt - even with a 160k salary.
There are people who don't even know they can apply to scholarships for undergrad. Say what you will and we can agree to disagree. But in order to do your due diligence, you need to have some knowledge of what that would even mean.pancakes3 wrote:i don't buy the patronizing slant of the working class applicant being duped and dazzled by the bright lights of biglaw. being a bumpkin is no excuse for forgoing your due dilligence into the field of your choice. at the very least you've got to recognize the enormity of the debt and figure out if you can service that debt - even with a 160k salary.
Agree to disagree then, but 2 points:zot1 wrote:There are people who don't even know they can apply to scholarships for undergrad. Say what you will and we can agree to disagree. But in order to do your due diligence, you need to have some knowledge of what that would even mean.pancakes3 wrote:i don't buy the patronizing slant of the working class applicant being duped and dazzled by the bright lights of biglaw. being a bumpkin is no excuse for forgoing your due dilligence into the field of your choice. at the very least you've got to recognize the enormity of the debt and figure out if you can service that debt - even with a 160k salary.
I disagree on MBAs. Plenty of people go to shitty business schools wrongly thinking it will do something for them. If there was a university willing to accept anyone with a pulse for PhDs or MDs, like there are with law schools, then you'd have plenty of people doing that too. Luckily you actually have to know something and demonstrate your ability to succeed to some reasonable level before you can get into one of those programs.pancakes3 wrote:Agree to disagree then, but 2 points:zot1 wrote:There are people who don't even know they can apply to scholarships for undergrad. Say what you will and we can agree to disagree. But in order to do your due diligence, you need to have some knowledge of what that would even mean.pancakes3 wrote:i don't buy the patronizing slant of the working class applicant being duped and dazzled by the bright lights of biglaw. being a bumpkin is no excuse for forgoing your due dilligence into the field of your choice. at the very least you've got to recognize the enormity of the debt and figure out if you can service that debt - even with a 160k salary.
1) UG admissions is a completely different beast than LS admissions. The applicants are older (and presumably wiser), and the job market demands for an UG degree are much higher than for a JD.
2) There's something endemically irrational to the LS applicant pool that can't be excused by a lack of institutional knowledge/privileged background/etc. There are nowhere near the same number of applicants (and schools) in niche PhD's, MD's, or even MBA's who run headfirst into their respective programs without thought to debt/employment outcome. There isn't a bumpkin out there who's banking on applying to a TTTT French Literature PhD program hoping to kill it their first year and then transfer to a HYS's French Lit program.