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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:11 pm

There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by mushybrain » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Phil Brooks » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:31 pm

Jordan Catalano wrote:I have sympathy for younger students fresh out of college who end up in this situation. There are so many professors and pre-law advisers who guide these students towards law without educating themselves on what has happened to the legal industry in the last several years. These students are in a relationship with these professors/advisers that denotes trust. I have less sympathy for the older student who leaves one career and goes into another without proper research, but I think the largest blame should be placed at the feet of law schools who graduate classes every year knowing half of their students will not find bar-passage required jobs. Those schools should be shut down.
Thank you. There is so much active misleading from pre-law advisers and undergraduate career centers. No adviser talks about merit scholarships or the possibility of negotiating discounts with schools. They do not advise students to sit-out a year and retake. They want to create as many sticker-paying K-JDs as possible.

A very good friend of mine just graduated summa cum laude from a T14. She paid sticker price, because FOUR SEPARATE ADVISERS at her undergraduate school told her to apply to law school ED, despite her 170+ LSAT. My friend comes from another country (as do I) where sellers are more upfront about the possible prices and buyers are more deferential; the very American idea of saying no to a school's posted price, particularly that of an "elite" school, is not obvious to everyone.

I still get so many questions from pre-law people asking, "What softs can I do to get into law school?" "This school has good constitutional law courses; should I go there?" The pre-law advisers and undergrad career centers are reinforcing these irrelevant priorities in the students and distracting them from things like cost and job placement.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by lymenheimer » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:47 pm

Phil Brooks wrote:
Jordan Catalano wrote:I have sympathy for younger students fresh out of college who end up in this situation. There are so many professors and pre-law advisers who guide these students towards law without educating themselves on what has happened to the legal industry in the last several years. These students are in a relationship with these professors/advisers that denotes trust. I have less sympathy for the older student who leaves one career and goes into another without proper research, but I think the largest blame should be placed at the feet of law schools who graduate classes every year knowing half of their students will not find bar-passage required jobs. Those schools should be shut down.
Thank you. There is so much active misleading from pre-law advisers and undergraduate career centers. No adviser talks about merit scholarships or the possibility of negotiating discounts with schools. They do not advise students to sit-out a year and retake. They want to create as many sticker-paying K-JDs as possible.

A very good friend of mine just graduated summa cum laude from a T14. She paid sticker price, because FOUR SEPARATE ADVISERS at her undergraduate school told her to apply to law school ED, despite her 170+ LSAT. My friend comes from another country (as do I) where sellers are more upfront about the possible prices and buyers are more deferential; the very American idea of saying no to a school's posted price, particularly that of an "elite" school, is not obvious to everyone.

I still get so many questions from pre-law people asking, "What softs can I do to get into law school?" "This school has good constitutional law courses; should I go there?" The pre-law advisers and undergrad career centers are reinforcing these irrelevant priorities in the students and distracting them from things like cost and job placement.
And it is more than likely intentional to some degree due to undergraduate Institutional rankings. If a student has no work lined up but can go to professional school right after graduation, the UG can put a tally on their "furthering education" chart.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Paul Campos » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:47 pm

At most institutions the only prerequisite for being a pre-law adviser is volunteering to do it. It's the kind of thing people do because it counts as "service" to the institution, and usually requires little actual work (in formal terms it's normal for institutional service to count for 20% for a faculty member's evaluation). Naturally lots of people who know almost literally nothing about law schools or legal hiring end up advising students who have no idea that ten minutes on the internet would provide far better information.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by landshoes » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:03 pm

pancakes3 wrote:i don't buy the patronizing slant of the working class applicant being duped and dazzled by the bright lights of biglaw. being a bumpkin is no excuse for forgoing your due dilligence into the field of your choice. at the very least you've got to recognize the enormity of the debt and figure out if you can service that debt - even with a 160k salary.
it's not that they (we) are "bumpkins." It's that there's no downside to debt or a big IRS bill if your other option is...no savings, no retirement, disability at age 50 if you're lucky enough to qualify.

when people talk about how you're affecting your retirement savings when you go to law school, it's a whole different world from people who will never save a penny for retirement in their lives.

that doesn't make it a great choice. but look at posts about how you could invest this money instead of taking out loans!!! and then you'd make so much cash!!!

how much you'd make by investing the 200k is beyond irrelevant. NO ONE gives these people 200k except the federal government, in student loans.

Doing something like law school is the only way they can get a capitol investment in their career. It may be a failed investment, but it's the only shot they have.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by pancakes3 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:52 pm

No, I don't buy that either. I grew up around enough blue collar workers to know that there exists a middle ground between welfare and biglaw. Guys in my HS graduating class are making money with shit-tier UG degrees (or less) with jobs as: youth pastor, car tuning/detailing, bartending/shift managing, mailman, used car salesperson, craft beer (brewing and distributing), a/v tech for concerts, realtor x10, construction x 10 (with varying specialties like electrician, plumbing, etc.)

The people I know who went to law school ill-advised are mostly decent-school-grads with liberal arts degrees who would probably view those blue collar jobs as "beneath" them.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:55 pm

Yeah, I agree with the above. I get that coming out of an average school with an average degree isn't a bed of roses, but law school isn't the only way to a better path.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by landshoes » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:00 pm

ok, you are right, it is very easy to succeed as a blue collar worker and every blue collar worker has all those opportunities. A+

(also please note that working-class/poor women make way less than men in a similar socioeconomic class)

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:28 pm

I don't think it's easy, at all. But I also don't want to see trap schools prey on people from working class backgrounds, and I really dislike the idea that the only path to the middle class is the tried and true law-medicine-business. I wish there were better education about the vast variety of jobs in the world and how to get to them.

I do actually think going to the local law school to do small law is a great goal/outcome for lots of people. I just think $200k debt for it is pretty crappy if you don't really know what you're getting into (which a lot of K-JDs coming out of hard background don't). I actually feel like the first guy in that article (the ex-cop) pretty much knew what he was getting into and got what he bargained for. I feel really bad for the second woman who hasn't passed the bar yet (IIRC).

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:44 pm

mushybrain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.
i should probably update my thread tracking my TTT grad friends. but the bottom line is yeah most of these outcomes suck when you look at them from a T14 persepctive of biglaw pay. but when you look at them as any other job, almost everyone (over 90%) of people that go to TTTs are better off than their alternatives would have been. the only one's worse off are the smart ones who took the LSAT once without studying and could've gotten into a much better school and then they don't do well in law school, which is a very very small minority of students.

Everyone I know that I graduated with that wanted to be a lawyer is a lawyer at this point. Just turned out half or 2/3 of them didn't want to be lawyers (which is the real reason law school sucks because it leads to law which sucks).

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:51 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I don't think it's easy, at all. But I also don't want to see trap schools prey on people from working class backgrounds, and I really dislike the idea that the only path to the middle class is the tried and true law-medicine-business. I wish there were better education about the vast variety of jobs in the world and how to get to them.

I do actually think going to the local law school to do small law is a great goal/outcome for lots of people. I just think $200k debt for it is pretty crappy if you don't really know what you're getting into (which a lot of K-JDs coming out of hard background don't). I actually feel like the first guy in that article (the ex-cop) pretty much knew what he was getting into and got what he bargained for. I feel really bad for the second woman who hasn't passed the bar yet (IIRC).
what if you think of it as a 10% repayment for 20 years rather than 200k? does that change the calculus. the loans arent real. 25% of student borrowers are in default or delinquency of sutdent loans and thats not even including the people paying $0 to $100/month on 6 figures of debt. the price tag does not even come close at approximating the actual price. it's like assuming the "retail" prices on groupon shit is the real price.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:01 pm

Yeah, I agree that in practice that's what it is. I think there's a psychological toll as well as economic to having debt, though, given the way our society usually looks at debt. I pretty much ignore mine, but I got the outcome I really wanted (better than I could have imagined), and I'm gunning for PSLF. I think if I'd lost my bet and had not had a good outcome, and was also facing a tax bomb in 20 years, I would hate it more.

Like, given the way you couch it, just make the education free, contingent on paying 10% of your income (capped at something) for some stretch of time, or pay sticker to avoid that commitment. Let the government give the money straight to schools and give students stipends. It's basically the same outcome but the psychology is different.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:12 pm

I really thought we settled this goddamn debate years ago.

The realistic best-case scenario is $60k and I still haven't seen anyone show me the math as to how someone with a mortgage and a family is gonna pay back the $100k tax bomb that will accumulate out of the original $200k of debt.

And that's IF you get an actual legal job, which is basically a coin flip at a school like Valpo.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by WinSome » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:37 pm

mushybrain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.
That reddit thread is hilarious. The guy is saying that even though his school has a 20% employment rate 9 months out, it doesn't matter because you can will yourself into that 20%, and that 9 months out is a bad metric because it doesn't show the number of people who become lawyers at some point in their life.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by mushybrain » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:43 pm

WinSome wrote:
mushybrain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.
That reddit thread is hilarious. The guy is saying that even though his school has a 20% employment rate 9 months out, it doesn't matter because you can will yourself into that 20%, and that 9 months out is a bad metric because it doesn't show the number of people who become lawyers at some point in their life.
And then accuses all the T14ers of being elitist while bragging about kicking the T14ers' asses because somehow going to a shitty school made him a better lawyer. With some bonus paranoia that everyone checks what school he went to and thinks they're better than him.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:03 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I really thought we settled this goddamn debate years ago.

The realistic best-case scenario is $60k and I still haven't seen anyone show me the math as to how someone with a mortgage and a family is gonna pay back the $100k tax bomb that will accumulate out of the original $200k of debt.

And that's IF you get an actual legal job, which is basically a coin flip at a school like Valpo.
if you can't the pay the tax bomb, it probably doesn't exist for you. the tax bomb is only a tax on the wealth youve accumulated. if you have 0 assets after 20 years, there is no tax bomb.

$60k? half the people i graduated with 5 years ago are (1) above 90K in private practice or (2) in govt working 35 hours a week with complete debt forgiveness on the horizon. lots of people left law though.

the people that left law or never started in law to do JD adv jobs are in decent spots as well. 70K all in comp for 40 hour work weeks and building skills that are transferable to smaller cities with a similar salary where only 1 of those incomes is enough to raise a 5 person family.

we get it that this is shit for your millionaire goals and biglaw prestige, but there's no way these outcomes are worse than retail manager at belk, school teacher, non-profit cog, office admin, part time tutor, etc and thats the type of job most of these people work before hand.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:04 pm

WinSome wrote:
mushybrain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.
That reddit thread is hilarious. The guy is saying that even though his school has a 20% employment rate 9 months out, it doesn't matter because you can will yourself into that 20%, and that 9 months out is a bad metric because it doesn't show the number of people who become lawyers at some point in their life.
you dont think measuring an investment in human capital at 9 months rather than 30 years later is arbitrary and ridiculous? tell that to apple stock owners in 2000.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:16 pm

anyone going to TTT to get rich is stupid. but most aren't going to get rich. they are going to be in a slightly better place than the shit job they currently have. it's like 2 different stores: walmart and louis vuitton and you guys keep comparing louis to the walmart like they aren't meant to be 2 completely different products.

despite there being way too many attorneys in many legal sectors, there still aren't enough attorneys serving low income people or people who dont speak english. the types of lawyers that can and will serve those people overwhelmingly go to lower ranked schools. how many immigration lawyers come out of NYU compared to Valpo? the article was perfect because many immigrants and criminals receive no representation or complete shit representation. The Valpos are the only schools left making those lawyers.

i think the schools are a little aggressive with recruiting and stat exaggeration. ideally theyd tell all their students - it's a middle class outcome most likely and you have to be devoted to the public service aspect of being a lawyer. but the overall is probably a net good to society - reading and writing skills for more people is a plus; knowing the law is good; having more people able to represent refugee tenants against slumlords is good; more legal representation for immigrants that cant speak english is good. then the lawyer pays back 10% of what they make over 20 years. if they hit it big, they pay back a lot of money. if they don't, they can still afford to carry on their life with no to minimal penalty.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Tiago Splitter » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:21 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
WinSome wrote:
mushybrain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.
That reddit thread is hilarious. The guy is saying that even though his school has a 20% employment rate 9 months out, it doesn't matter because you can will yourself into that 20%, and that 9 months out is a bad metric because it doesn't show the number of people who become lawyers at some point in their life.
you dont think measuring an investment in human capital at 9 months rather than 30 years later is arbitrary and ridiculous? tell that to apple stock owners in 2000.
It's frustrating because scammer deans assure us that the 9 (now 10) months out reporting doesn't do their students justice yet they never make any effort to collect data from further out.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by WinSome » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:31 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
WinSome wrote:
mushybrain wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There's a post on the lawschool subreddit from a guy who went to a TTT, is making $200k, and is telling people it doesn't matter what school you go to, you can be just like him!

JFC
And he's got "well over 100k" in debt. I don't understand why people like this, who clearly realize they're the exception, turn around and say your school doesn't matter. Well yeah it does, because this guy spent three years hustling while taking shit cases to become the exception.

He also said "A couple years of out of law school and almost everyone I know (that passed the bar) is working as a lawyer somewhere." I love the "that passed the bar" caveat.
That reddit thread is hilarious. The guy is saying that even though his school has a 20% employment rate 9 months out, it doesn't matter because you can will yourself into that 20%, and that 9 months out is a bad metric because it doesn't show the number of people who become lawyers at some point in their life.
you dont think measuring an investment in human capital at 9 months rather than 30 years later is arbitrary and ridiculous? tell that to apple stock owners in 2000.
I think 9 months out might not be the best stat, but it's still probably pretty indicative. Do you think that most of that 80% that was unemployed 9 months out in that thread got jobs as lawyers within the next year? A better stat would probably be 1.5 years out so you could get the people who failed the first bar exam.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:40 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote: It's frustrating because scammer deans assure us that the 9 (now 10) months out reporting doesn't do their students justice yet they never make any effort to collect data from further out.
doesnt common sense tell you that a 10 month snapshot doesnt appropriately reflect a 30 year career? if they could get good data easily, sure do it. but no schools track that data (undergrads, MBAs, MDs etc). it's perfectly fair to just say median salary is 60k and remember this is 10 months after law so many of these people have much higher earning potentials.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by Johann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:03 pm

WinSome wrote: I think 9 months out might not be the best stat, but it's still probably pretty indicative. Do you think that most of that 80% that was unemployed 9 months out in that thread got jobs as lawyers within the next year? A better stat would probably be 1.5 years out so you could get the people who failed the first bar exam.
as someone that graduated from one of these schools where 20% of people had full time, long term lawyer jobs at graduation, yes. there is a shitload of movement every year. every 1 year anniversary in the shitlaw field is huge.
the jobs that my friends and classmates had at graduation were basically all shitlaw clerk jobs for $12-$18/ hr; doc review at $28; or volunteer/intern positions for non-profits/govt;. that was probably 50/60 (85%) of my friends that i kept up with. now at least 10 of those people are over 100k in biglaw or midlaw(some in very low cost of living places); another 10 in goverment; another 10 in JD advantage jobs that pay 65-75k; another handful are partners in small shops or are in a partnership grooming phase where they were brought in to eventually be a partner and of course those salaries vary greatly but some are doing very very well 150-200K. the ones that don't have their shit together didn't really want to get their shit together: 1 guy is out in oclorado doing doc review smoking lots of weed; 1 guy just likes being a contract attorney for 18 months then taking 3 off then doing it again (50K a year roughly); etc etc.
obviously, that's all anecdotal, but ive got friends at enough of the same sort of similar schools to know this is how it usually goes. no one is living at home with their parents wondering how to afford their next meal. their lives would probably stress everyone out here because there was so much uncertainty in all of our lives for those first 18 to 36 months after law school. but shit looks to be panning out. if there were other TTT grads on this site, i think theyd say the same thing.

of course it's always dumb for someone who can make a 170 LSAT to go to TTT because they get a 158 their first time. the past of least resistance comes from the good schools. but many of these people cant get those scores and dont get them. it's not only possible but very likely to be a succcess story if your goal of going to a TTT was to make a middle class income and you dont mind doing some crappy/boring/dirty work.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by yay » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:59 pm

zot1 wrote:
Because they don't know they are crushing their lives. They think I've done manual labor since I was little and so has everyone else in my family. If I can become an attorney, I can improve myself and my whole family. You have to grow up in a certain social class to get this. I'm happy that you and most people here don't.
i am not condemning people from underprivileged background who aspire to go to law school. None of this has to do with willfully taking on massive debt knowing their JD from Valpalso law school or whatever is worthless. They know this. It's not that they are duped. They know it but do not care because in their minds, a JD from terrible schools is better than no JD. It's willful and it's ignorant.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:23 pm

Re: 9 months - I kinda agree with Johann on this. On the one hand, of course you can compare random TTT (or my lower T1) to a T14 and see that the 9 months out stat from the T14 is way better. But it's also way better because a huge percentage of students go to jobs that hire before graduation. Once you get out of that group of schools, people are more likely to get hired on some random timeline that doesn't match the 9 months stat. It doesn't mean they are necessarily bad jobs (unless only a $160k job is a good job), they just have different hiring practices. My class's 9 months stat wasn't great (didn't help that I was class of 2011) but everyone I know of who wanted to be a lawyer has ended up in a legal job. No, not always biglaw, but if you're going to use biglaw as the metric of whether someone has a legal career, vast numbers of lawyers are never going to fit that standard.

And the thing is Johann is totally right that people do move around - and up. I know people who started in shit/midlaw who are in much better firms now, a few even in biglaw.

Now, I can't speak for all those people and say that every one of them thinks their legal career was worth what they paid; I don't know that at all. I still think the education is overpriced. And the thing with my school is that we usually have like a 95% bar passage rate, so people coming out of my class do have the chance to make a legal career. I think when you start getting down to truly bad bar passage rates AND bad 9 months/other employment stats AND exorbitant tuition...yeah, that's a problem. But I think Johann's right that the outcomes aren't as dire as the 9 months stat makes them seem.

(Don't get me wrong - the dire outcomes are truly dire, and there are too many of them. I think there is a place for the TTTs of this world, and going to a TTT if that's the best school you get into, though I would probably want there to be fewer. But my biggest issue is with the cost, since I'm not quite as sanguine about Johann about the debt - at least, not for other people. I just ignore mine.)

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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