NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

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GreenEggs

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby GreenEggs » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:49 pm

I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case
Last edited by GreenEggs on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DELG

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby DELG » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:51 pm

DCfilterDC wrote:I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

Gotta keep saying it until boomers get it. Or die.

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84651846190

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby 84651846190 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:53 pm

DELG wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

Gotta keep saying it until boomers get it. Or die.

God dammit, why won't they die more quickly?

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TLSModBot

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby TLSModBot » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:54 pm

HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED

GreenEggs

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby GreenEggs » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:55 pm

Capitol_Idea wrote:HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED


If anything, the NYT has failed us by not telling us more often
Last edited by GreenEggs on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:49 pm

TL;DL: Wizkid, broad-shouldered Jeremy Hahn profits off the backs of unqualified masses.

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jbagelboy

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:38 pm

low

hanging

fruit

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sublime

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby sublime » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:45 pm

jbagelboy wrote:low

hanging

fruit



Right.

tldr: Valapraiso is a bad law school and people who took one or two hundred thousand in debt to go there are not in a good position.

They could have blamed Valpo a bit more though.

john_brown

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby john_brown » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:39 pm

The NYT seems to run this story about twice a year. The plot never changes: newly-disillusioned grad of middling law school, long on potential, short on job prospects, weighed down by crippling debt etc. etc.

I sympathize (how could you not?) but we aren't breaking any new ground here. How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?" They seem more concerned about restructuring and buy-outs than the fact that their students are taking out six-figure loans to fund a near-worthless degree. At what point does taking a job at these schools become an ethical dilemma?

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sublime

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby sublime » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:45 pm

john_brown wrote:The NYT seems to run this story about twice a year. The plot never changes: newly-disillusioned grad of middling law school, long on potential, short on job prospects, weighed down by crippling debt etc. etc.

I sympathize (how could you not?) but we aren't breaking any new ground here. How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?" They seem more concerned about restructuring and buy-outs than the fact that their students are taking out six-figure loans to fund a near-worthless degree. At what point does taking a job at these schools become an ethical dilemma?



Fuck that. I'll go be a prof at Valpo and sleep fine.

There's a better case for administration's blame, but it isn't like lawyers generally don't face ethical and moral dilemmas.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:58 pm

john_brown wrote:How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0

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DELG

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby DELG » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:20 pm

ExBiglawAssociate wrote:
DELG wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:I just find it amazing that articles like this are still being written and people are still constantly amazed that this is the case

Gotta keep saying it until boomers get it. Or die.

God dammit, why won't they die more quickly?

Salted caramel shit was invented to hasten their demise right

yay

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby yay » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:33 pm

hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:35 pm

yay wrote:hard to have sympathy for people who go to bad schools who aren't rich or have some non-idiotic loan-repayment plan. that article just makes the rest of us look bad. nobody cares about that guy's 200K+ loan and shitlaw job in small town. like he literally did it to himself fully aware. Like he saw shit and stepped on it, and he's now crying it smells.


This.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:33 am

Makes T-14 big law bound folks look like assholes to their friends back home, especially when articles like that WSJ article about summer associate events come around .

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nothingtosee

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby nothingtosee » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:45 am

Strong anon posting here.

How many of the people going to valpo don't have any friends or family who are lawyers? The dominant understanding in America is "doctors and lawyers" are safe and successful professions? Do you think the admissions officers told these people "hey, odds are you'll never work as a lawyer!"

It's sad when people have $200,000 of debt and no job prospects. Full stop.

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star fox

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby star fox » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:19 am

nothingtosee wrote:Strong anon posting here.

How many of the people going to valpo don't have any friends or family who are lawyers? The dominant understanding in America is "doctors and lawyers" are safe and successful professions? Do you think the admissions officers told these people "hey, odds are you'll never work as a lawyer!"

It's sad when people have $200,000 of debt and no job prospects. Full stop.

Did you read the article? The person in it has job prospects and will probably be fine.

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encore1101

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby encore1101 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:57 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
john_brown wrote:How about a more interesting angle: why not ask some of those professors, in essence, "how do you sleep at night?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0



Beaten to it. +1

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:09 am

star fox wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Strong anon posting here.

How many of the people going to valpo don't have any friends or family who are lawyers? The dominant understanding in America is "doctors and lawyers" are safe and successful professions? Do you think the admissions officers told these people "hey, odds are you'll never work as a lawyer!"

It's sad when people have $200,000 of debt and no job prospects. Full stop.

Did you read the article? The person in it has job prospects and will probably be fine.



What I got from the article is that he has job prospects, but none of them will be able to service 200k in debt

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pancakes3

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:40 am

soloing shouldn't be counted as a job prospect.

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Jordan Catalano

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby Jordan Catalano » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:40 am

I have sympathy for younger students fresh out of college who end up in this situation. There are so many professors and pre-law advisers who guide these students towards law without educating themselves on what has happened to the legal industry in the last several years. These students are in a relationship with these professors/advisers that denotes trust. I have less sympathy for the older student who leaves one career and goes into another without proper research, but I think the largest blame should be placed at the feet of law schools who graduate classes every year knowing half of their students will not find bar-passage required jobs. Those schools should be shut down.

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jchiles

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby jchiles » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:49 am

pancakes3 wrote:soloing shouldn't be counted as a job prospect.


I don't think it counts as a great job prospect but its a job and it seems to work out for some people.

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby October25 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:06 am

For what it's worth, Leiter has a post listing 6 substantive factual errors in the story, as well as a bunch of misrepresentations.
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... story.html

A quote from Leiter's interview with the student:

"Valpraiso did not mislead me about employment prospects. I had done my research. I knew the job market was competitive going in. I knew what debt I was walking into. I think very few Americans don’t have debt, but for me it was an investment. I saw the debt as an investment in my career, my future, and my family.

Valpraiso gave a guy like me, a non-traditional student a shot at becoming a lawyer. Most law schools say they take a holistic approach, but they don’t really do it. I had to work hard to overcome adversity, and they gave me a shot to go to law school and to succeed. They gave me a shot at something that I wanted to do where most law schools wouldn’t."

This makes me a less sympathetic to their situation, honestly. It really sounds like they're saying "I knew prospects out of this school were crap, but I couldn't get in anywhere else." which, unfortunately, sounds like the rational of a lot of people in these types of articles.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: NYT: An Expensive Law Degree, and No Place to Use It

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:19 am

October25 wrote:For what it's worth, Leiter has a post listing 6 substantive factual errors in the story, as well as a bunch of misrepresentations.
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... story.html

A quote from Leiter's interview with the student:

"Valpraiso did not mislead me about employment prospects. I had done my research. I knew the job market was competitive going in. I knew what debt I was walking into. I think very few Americans don’t have debt, but for me it was an investment. I saw the debt as an investment in my career, my future, and my family.

Valpraiso gave a guy like me, a non-traditional student a shot at becoming a lawyer. Most law schools say they take a holistic approach, but they don’t really do it. I had to work hard to overcome adversity, and they gave me a shot to go to law school and to succeed. They gave me a shot at something that I wanted to do where most law schools wouldn’t."

This makes me a less sympathetic to their situation, honestly. It really sounds like they're saying "I knew prospects out of this school were crap, but I couldn't get in anywhere else." which, unfortunately, sounds like the rational of a lot of people in these types of articles.


Goddamn Leiter is aggressively dumb.

Even at the 25th percentile, toward the bottom, the lifetime present value of a law degree as of the start of law school is around $400,000 (based on around a $20,000 boost to earnings per year)


*spends $200k to earn $400k over 40 years, making 1.7% annually*
*could've thrown a dart at the S&P, made 5%, and never had to put up with legal bullshit*
*is financial wizard*



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