Michigan OCI 2016

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:54 am

The below was good advice last year, and it remains good advice this year:

There is lots of good advice out there, but the single most important thing I can recommend is that you put in the necessary work to perform well. Most of the people who put a lot of thinking into OCI did well, regardless of GPA. Obviously a 3.7 is going to out perform a 3.2 everything else being equal, but the individuals I know who had a 3.5 and put the work into OCI tended to do better than the individuals with 3.7s and above who didn't.

A few more specifics:

1. Develop a Story: This is important both in terms of geography and practice area interest (see below). But your 2-minute elevator schtick should be able to tie both of these concerns to the firm you are interviewing with + your own life experiences/interests etc.

2. Have a Specific Practice Group Interest: Like all advice, this is less important the better grades you have. However, it can make a significant difference at some firms. It's not necessarily about expressing a practice group interest and firm X needs people for that area (although it can be). It's more about showing that you have thought about what you want to do with the next step in your life and that there is a reason that you chose to interview with firm X--even if there really isn't.

I recommend figuring out what practice area you might want to be in first. For some of you this might be easy, i.e. you've always wanted to do patent, for others this could be more difficult. Chambers Associates has good guides on various practice areas and simple Google searches can also be helpful.

Once you've figured out what practice area you're interested in, figure out what firms (given your grade constraints) do that work well. Chambers & Partners has good rankings on this type of thing by market. Depending on what you decide you're interested in, this also might dictate what markets you're interested it. If you want to regulatory work for example, DC is probably where you want to focus, even if the GPAs are higher.

This might seem daunting and/or nerve-racking because you have no idea what you want to do yet. That's okay, to an extent. In that case, find firms that do a variety of different things well, that you'd be willing to practice in, but I'd still recommend going into your screener with a specific practice area or two that you're interested in. Again, this shows the interviewers you've both put thought into what you want to do with your life and that there is a specific reason you bid Firm X. I cannot emphasize this enough. Interviewers want a reason to like you, but you need to give them that reason.

Lastly, if you're worried about committing to a practice area, remember that most firms nowadays don't hire summers for a specific practice group. You are free to change in the summer, and often even after you get to the firm. Choosing a practice group is all about sending a signal to interviewers you've put some thought into your future career.

3. CONTACT A CURRENT MICHIGAN ASSOCIATE/PARTNER + SUMMER ASSOCIATE (IF POSSIBLE) AT EVERY FIRM YOU'RE INTERVIEWING WITH: Single most important thing I did. It took forever. I worked on it all July, but I emailed someone at every firm, and had a phone conversation with most of them. Target Michigan grads specifically in the practice group you're interested in, but even if there aren't Michigan grads in your preferred practice group, that's ok. Still reach out to them. Doing this helps you learn more about the firm. More importantly, though, it also gives you a name to drop when you interview with individuals from the firm at OCI. "I talked to Jerry in the Latham Chicago office and he was telling me about some of the responsibilities junior M&A associates tend to have. Seemed like stuff I would really like." Again, the substance doesn't matter much, but you're sending a signal to the firm that you care about them enough to invest some time.

4. Do an Interests Section on Your Resume: I had never had one, but OCP recommended it. I was skeptical, but I did it anyways. Best decision. Many of my interviews consisted of discussing my sports and other extracurricular interests from this section. Made things go a lot smoother. Just make sure whatever you put on there you're prepared to talk about.

5. Do a Mock Interview: Varying degrees of helpfullness depending on how socially awkward you are, but can't hurt. Do it.

6. Factor Your Social IQ into Your Bid Strategy: If you have a 3.8 but you know you have trouble in an interview setting, bid like you have a 3.6 If you have a 3.4 but you are confident and have good WE, bid like you have a 3.6. I know some individuals who sold themselves short because they were worried about their GPA, and I know others who bid all V10s but didn't get an offer w/ a 3.7 because they came straight from undergrad and didn't know how to interview. Be honest with yourself about your interview/social abilities and factor that in.

7. Know Your Interviewers: Don't stalk them, but try to find a connection. Did they group in Chicago? Maybe you have visited Chicago? Did they go to law school at Michigan? Oh, did they live in the lawyers club while they were there/here? Me too, let's discuss how much better the building is today, etc.

8. Have a List of Questions Ready: Self explanatory, but important for screeners with interviewees who want to see how prepared you are. Questions should be a mix of both general and firm-specific. This is where research comes in. Do it, it's important.

If I think of other stuff, Ill add those thoughts later. Again, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to do the work necessary to be successful.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone comment on bid strategies for someone looking exclusivly at secondary markets?


What markets? Detroit/Cleveland/Minn, or Atl, etc?


Detroit/Grand Rapids with really strong Michigan ties and contemplating other midwestern secondaries (WI/OH/Indy) but no ties. GPA 3.49.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby umichman » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone comment on bid strategies for someone looking exclusivly at secondary markets?


What markets? Detroit/Cleveland/Minn, or Atl, etc?


Detroit/Grand Rapids with really strong Michigan ties and contemplating other midwestern secondaries (WI/OH/Indy) but no ties. GPA 3.49.


That was right around my GPA and I got an offer from all big Detroit firms. Be nice and have good reason for staying in Detroit/michigan

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:10 am

umichman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone comment on bid strategies for someone looking exclusivly at secondary markets?


What markets? Detroit/Cleveland/Minn, or Atl, etc?


Detroit/Grand Rapids with really strong Michigan ties and contemplating other midwestern secondaries (WI/OH/Indy) but no ties. GPA 3.49.


That was right around my GPA and I got an offer from all big Detroit firms. Be nice and have good reason for staying in Detroit/michigan


^^^This, but bear in mind it's no longer just Notre Dame/Michigan as the usual suspects competing for top spots in Detroit (no offense Wayne, UDM, MSU, Cooley (haha...)). The past 3 cycles the top Detroit firms have seen more T14 applicants than they had over the past 5-10 years combined. This includes those w/o ties and those who could easily go to Chicago/NYC. So what I'm saying is there is competition which wasn't there before. Over he past few years I know of at least 2 UChicago, northwestern, a Harvard, and a Stanford summer. None of whom had ties to Detroit and accepted offers from OCI and post-SA.

I don't know what's driving the increase. I know these people, as did I, had offers in major markets like NYC, DC, and Chicago but picked Detroit. It could be the increased interest has been driven by publicity since he bankruptcy, or something else. I'm not complaining. The city is fun.

This being said. If you have ties and show you want to stay, they'll give you a good look.

As for GR, same thing goes, but they are much more insular. You almost need to be from GR or have a significant reason to go there for firms to give you an offer. I lived in GR from 4th grade till I went off to college and getting an offer was like pulling teeth - I was told afterwards it was BC my resume spoke to me not being fully tied to GR -worked in NYC, Conn, Fl in IBanking and consulting before law school - yet my parents still lived in GR and my sister were in middle school and HS there. So who knows. Also the guys at Varnum are dicks, so don't bother with them. (Edit: that's stupid advice, bid them just be prepared for asshole questions. Like why did you get this in this class.)
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:23 am

umichman wrote:That was right around my GPA and I got an offer from all big Detroit firms. Be nice and have good reason for staying in Detroit/michigan


Anonymous User wrote:
I don't know what's driving the increase. I know these people, as did I, had offers in major markets like NYC, DC, and Chicago but picked Detroit. It could be the increased interest has been driven by publicity since he bankruptcy, or something else. I'm not complaining. The city is fun.


Did you guys get interviews scheduled for all of the MI firms you bid on? Are there are firms you would recommend bidding higher? (OCP has been so useless with questions like this...)

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:09 pm

Hey guys,

I know this is often considered blasphemy but just coming in here to say that I definitely over prepared for OCI and it screwed me. I mean really screwed me. I had a spiel and everything but because I did it sounded too much like a spiel. And because I was over prepared I came off as fake, or at least I assume.

I think the advice to prepare, prepare, prepare can psyche some people out too much. At least it did for me. It put me in a weird headspace. If you have the grades and are a fairly good conversationalist, I would recommend learning as much as you can about the firms, think about how you'd generally like to respond to the obvious questions but not overdrill on things if it's just going to make you more nervous.

I really wish someone had told me that before OCI. I struck out with pretty good grades. I trashed all my preparation, literally unlearned it all, tried to just chill in interviews and eventually ended up with a slew of offers. I am 100% certain over-preparation was not the right approach for me. It apparently is for others.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:10 pm

I have a few questions for 3Ls/Recent grads:

1) Can someone please explain how the computer determines who gets to interview where? I know it's lottery but is it solely based on how high you rank a firm in comparison to how high others bid that firm or does more go into it?

2) Would someone mind sharing their bidding strategy. Did you bid based on gpa range, interviews available, offers made?

3) Did anyone bid above their gpa and have success?

4) If I'm not going to bid Sidley NY #1 should I even use a bid on them because of how few interviews they do?

Thanks!

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:13 pm

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:Hey guys,

I know this is often considered blasphemy but just coming in here to say that I definitely over prepared for OCI and it screwed me. I mean really screwed me. I had a spiel and everything but because I did it sounded too much like a spiel. And because I was over prepared I came off as fake, or at least I assume.

I think the advice to prepare, prepare, prepare can psyche some people out too much. At least it did for me. It put me in a weird headspace. If you have the grades and are a fairly good conversationalist, I would recommend learning as much as you can about the firms, think about how you'd generally like to respond to the obvious questions but not overdrill on things if it's just going to make you more nervous.

I really wish someone had told me that before OCI. I struck out with pretty good grades. I trashed all my preparation, literally unlearned it all, tried to just chill in interviews and eventually ended up with a slew of offers. I am 100% certain over-preparation was not the right approach for me. It apparently is for others.



This. Have a story you can talk about. I wouldn't say i didn't prepare, but i definitely chilled during my interview and had just conversations. A factor of this was my background which spurred conversations - was a D-1 college athlete, started and sold/merged 2 businesses in UG, worked in investment banking post-UG but pre-law, worked for a VC during 1L summer, etc. It was always - tell me about your business, why finance, why law, what do you want to do with your law degree, why does this firm fit with your ambitions, why x city. B/c i had mixed undergrad/law schools people always asked who i cheered for when the two schools played in football, etc.

Based on this my interviews always focused on things i did and i could talk about. I didn't bullshit nor did i have to worry about sounding fake.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
3) Did anyone bid above their gpa and have success?



yes but not b/c of the bid. I found a time when the interviewer had a dead spot - a no show or was free, and i stopped in and dropped my resume. Said i didn't get a bid spot but would like to interview if they have time. They told me they were full, but I received a call asking me to come back later b/c they could fit me in. Interview turned into a call-back. I got the offer the same day as my call-back - V5 firm. Didn't go with them but it was ballsy and they liked it, even though i was .2 below their GPA requirements.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:00 pm

As some point I was involved in discussion about how to modify the OCI process with a number of students and administrators. All of the 2Ls and 3Ls agreed that the process was unfair to students around the median. Students with 3.7s and above were ranking the middling NYC and Chicago firms in the top 10 and then picking up interviews with the Vault 15 firms with their 10 to 25 spots. No one thought that was a good thing. There were several ideas as to how one could change the process to stop the gaming that was unquestionably helping those with the best GPAs at the expense of those with median and below GPAs. The V15-V50 firms saw the top students and were offering them call back interviews when most of those students weren't going to go to those firms. Some students even voiced support to switching to a matching software so that firms that have shown a willingness to hire students in the 3.2-3.4 range would not see students with 4.0s. Dean Z correctly predicted that students would be pissed about losing the ability to pick the firms they were interviewing with, even though everyone agreed there was a problem. Removing this data was obviously a step to try to help median students somewhat, and it's likely that it will help them somewhat. I understand that some of you want to game the system, but as someone who has only the collective interests of the law school at heart at this point, please believe me that this is, on the whole, a beneficial decision.

In terms of bidding strategy: if you're looking at NYC and you've got great grades, it will remain true the Cravath, DPW, Skadden, Cleary, and S&C will not need to top your list. Only 45 students or so really have the grades for those firms, and a bunch won't be doing OCI. So those interview slots will be pretty easy to get. The same hold somewhat outside of New York somewhat. So, for example, K&E in Chicago or Williams & Connolly in DC probably do not need to be your top choice.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Vexed » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have a few questions for 3Ls/Recent grads:

1) Can someone please explain how the computer determines who gets to interview where? I know it's lottery but is it solely based on how high you rank a firm in comparison to how high others bid that firm or does more go into it?

2) Would someone mind sharing their bidding strategy. Did you bid based on gpa range, interviews available, offers made?

3) Did anyone bid above their gpa and have success?

4) If I'm not going to bid Sidley NY #1 should I even use a bid on them because of how few interviews they do?

Thanks!


1) My understanding is that it's a true preferential bid-rank system - if Firm X has 21 slots and 21 bid it as #1, nobody that bid it lower than that is going to get that firm. If it's 21 slots and you've got 10 people that bid it #1, it'll then dip down into the pool of #2 ranks, then #3's, etc.

2) This is what's a bit perplexing about them keeping you guys in the dark on the bid-to-interview/callback/offer data for me, because that's basically how I constructed my entire bid list and ultimately how I strategized into my offer.

I had a pretty good GPA and thus wasn't really barred from bidding at a ton of places, so my strategy was to take about 20 or so firms that I absolutely wanted to have an interview with, and then fill the remaining slots on my list with "safety" firms that weren't hyper competitive to get an interview slot with while also having relatively high interview-to-callback + callback-to-offer numbers (unsurprisingly, most of these firms were in NYC).

Once I had the list of firms that made the overall cut, I did my rank based primarily on how difficult it was to get an interview with that firm in the prior year. I applied the GPA data mostly to make the fine grain distinctions in rank near the top - IE, in trying to break a tie on where I was ranking them, I'd give the firm that I thought I'd have a better shot at based off of GPA the higher position.

I ended up getting a pretty decent chunk of interviews, over 25+ if I recall correctly, but I also ended up massively underperforming my numbers and only got one offer. Sure enough, it was the last firm I had placed on the list as a safety based on their interview/callback/offer data. I don't think they would have even necessarily been on the list if I wouldn't have had that data.

3) People do, but it's not something I would count on as a possibility. It's probably okay to try to give yourself a few interviews above your GPA weight class, but you should probably still at least be around their 25th GPA to begin with. Don't bank on being a unicorn.

4) Probably not worth it, although I'm not sure what the Sidley NYC data looks like lately. Slightly perplexing to me why that office is so revered at Mich OCI.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:02 pm

Can anyone tell me what Detroit firms are at Michigan OCI? I am a potential transfer from WSU, looking to stay in Michigan.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:02 am

Current 3L here.

1) Can someone please explain how the computer determines who gets to interview where? I know it's lottery but is it solely based on how high you rank a firm in comparison to how high others bid that firm or does more go into it?


No. I did not get an interview with my #1 firm, but got #2-15(ish), and I know people who got interviews with my #1 despite ranking them lower. It's got to be some kind of ranking-maximization model. (Ended up getting an interview with my #1 by signing up day-of, though.)

2) Would someone mind sharing their bidding strategy. Did you bid based on gpa range, interviews available, offers made?


My bidding strategy was based on the following (in order):

0. Geography. Figure out where you will or won't work before you start crunching numbers. NY is a good safety net.

1. Difficulty of getting OCI screener - number of slots, how tough it was to get a slot the year before.

2. Difficulty of getting callback/offer - screener:callback ratio, callback:offer ratio, GPA stats.

Firms have no clue how high or low you've ranked them. First and foremost, you need to be in the room. Look for the value bids - firms that have been undersubscribed in the past (e.g., for DC: HWG, Covington, W&C) and bid if your grades are at or above their historical low. Don't ignore hospitality suites, either - I didn't even bid on Baker & McKenzie but dropped off my resume at their suite; they called a week later and set me up to get coffee with an associate, then invited me for a callback. Symplicity resume drops are good, too. Also, email firms/offices that aren't at OCI this summer - yes, you will likely get a job through OCI if you participate, but that doesn't excuse you from hustling.

3) Did anyone bid above their gpa and have success?


I didn't beat my stats by much, but yeah.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what Detroit firms are at Michigan OCI? I am a potential transfer from WSU, looking to stay in Michigan.


Bodman, Clark Hill, Dickinson Wright, Dinsmore & Shohl, Dykema, Foley & Lardner, Honigman, Jones Day, Miller Canfield

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what Detroit firms are at Michigan OCI? I am a potential transfer from WSU, looking to stay in Michigan.


Bodman, Clark Hill, Dickinson Wright, Dinsmore & Shohl, Dykema, Foley & Lardner, Honigman, Jones Day, Miller Canfield


Is GundersonDetmer there this year?

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what Detroit firms are at Michigan OCI? I am a potential transfer from WSU, looking to stay in Michigan.


Bodman, Clark Hill, Dickinson Wright, Dinsmore & Shohl, Dykema, Foley & Lardner, Honigman, Jones Day, Miller Canfield


Is GundersonDetmer there this year?


Yes, but they're only listed as interviewing for Boston, NYC, and Redwood City (lolwut).

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what Detroit firms are at Michigan OCI? I am a potential transfer from WSU, looking to stay in Michigan.


Bodman, Clark Hill, Dickinson Wright, Dinsmore & Shohl, Dykema, Foley & Lardner, Honigman, Jones Day, Miller Canfield


Is GundersonDetmer there this year?


Yes, but they're only listed as interviewing for Boston, NYC, and Redwood City (lolwut).


Curious how they'll develop the AA/Detroit office. 180k in that area would be nice.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:27 am

Do employers care about pass fails?

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:Do employers care about pass fails?


i think only if you fail.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby deuceindc » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:57 am

Rising 3L here. I've heard that OCP hasn't released the bid conversion data. I have last year's data for DC, Boston, and Detroit firms - please pm me if you'd like it. Also, feel free to pm if you want info about any firms in those markets. I did more interviews than most (29 screeners, 12CBs), and was pretty happy with my results.

Also, I don't see the lack of bid conversion data as problematic. Yes, it is one less data point to base your bids on, but it's entirely historical data. It does not predict your class's bidding strategy, so it adds more noise than signal to your calculation of who you'd really like to bid and where you should bid them.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:58 am

Can someone with last year's bid conversion data do us all a solid and send it out on lawopen?


Also, ICYMI, OCP's "EIW Hacks" are to make sure you (1) have a place to sleep and (2) have clothes to wear. I'd be totally helpless without them.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:Also, ICYMI, OCP's "EIW Hacks" are to make sure you (1) have a place to sleep and (2) have clothes to wear. I'd be totally helpless without them.


Where would we all be without OCP? :roll:

But actually, it seems like of the T14 we have close to the most useless career office... I can't tell you how many times I've asked a question only to be directed to look at the Student Career Toolkit website...

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:53 am

I know it's a bit early for bid list review, but can a 3L/recent grad tell me how high I need to rank the following firms (all NY offices) to have the best bet to get an interview:

Allen & Overy
Mayer Brown
Schulte
Milbank
Jones Day
Greenberg Traurig
Sidley Austin
Wilkie
Goodwin Procter
Nixon Peabody
Cahill
Weil
Gibson Dunn
Cadwalder

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby inothingam » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can anyone tell me what Detroit firms are at Michigan OCI? I am a potential transfer from WSU, looking to stay in Michigan.


Bodman, Clark Hill, Dickinson Wright, Dinsmore & Shohl, Dykema, Foley & Lardner, Honigman, Jones Day, Miller Canfield


Is GundersonDetmer there this year?


Yes, but they're only listed as interviewing for Boston, NYC, and Redwood City (lolwut).


FWIW, Gunderson, RWC is one of the big 4 for start-up work in Silicon Valley (along with Cooley, WSGR, and Fenwick). Gunderson is one of the few big firms that actually does early stage start-up work.

Source: Rising 3L who only targeted the Bay Area.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not to derail the discussion but does anyone have any insight into the MLR notification process? Do they call people who make it on round by round or do they do it all at once?

It doesn't appear that there are any resources anywhere that discuss how we'll be notified.


MLR should be notifying us soon since the packet said early July. It would seem like they should be able to move a little quicker this year since this is a smaller class. I know secondaries started notifying over a week ago



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