Working efficiently Forum

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
lacrossebrother

Platinum
Posts: 7150
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:15 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by lacrossebrother » Mon May 09, 2016 1:08 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
lacrossebrother wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Why would someone who bills by the hour want to work efficiently?
Because you either end up not billing for the # of hours you worked or you bill for it and then get the number reduced, or chewed out for billing with little to show.
Let the partners worry about that. You might be surprised at how far they'll let your hours go when your incentives and their incentives are actually aligned for once. If you don't push the envelope a little, you'll never know how many hours you could be potentially leaving on the table.
In addition to what other people said about this just being dumb and unethical, it only works if you're only on one project at a time.
Actually, it works in any situations in which there is not literally less time to complete a project or projects than is "normal" to complete the project.

And by the way, it's more unethical AND dumb to attempt to reduce your hours below what you know to be the "usual" time to complete the project by devising these "efficiency strategies," because you're robbing your firm of the money it could have made and expected to make. Your job is to do the work properly and report how long it took, not to finish it as quickly as possible. It's the partner's job to decide how many of those hours to bill the client for, and if you need to be more efficient, they'll definitely let you know, but it's not your job to make that decision unilaterally.
I'm glad you keyed in on the unethical part of the sentence that I attributed to other people.
If partner A assigns you something due tomorrow and so does partner B, because they haven't spoken, and you can't turn them down for whatever reason, then doing your work efficiently is good, you idiot.

User avatar
lacrossebrother

Platinum
Posts: 7150
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:15 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by lacrossebrother » Mon May 09, 2016 1:16 am

Anyways, having now throughly debated whether OP's question is worthwhile, if anyone has any tips on managing work, I'd be interested. I feel like I get a little bit better each day, but obviously would appreciate more people's tips.

Some quick thoughts:
1. Seemingly small distractions, i.e. checking text messages for a couple of seconds, take me out of my zone and can cost 20 minutes.
2. "Touch it once and be done with it." To the extent possible, don't skip from assignment to assignment. I get the urge to do this when one assignment gets tough. The problem is that I will have to spend a lot more time getting back in the groove when transitioning back, and then confront the same tough part the same time. Also err heavily on the side of formality, so you don't have to do the same thing again, but "more formal."
3. Use assistants more. It actually doesnt save me too much time to walk shit Ive printed down the hall, and sometimes explaining it will take the exact same time, but the risk is that the partner will want to chat if I meet them in their office.

Also, work with someone else. This helps ensure all the time is billable --even though it might not get billed --and that you get it right the first time.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 09, 2016 10:33 am

Want to add a few more thoughts from my experience.

1. People in this topic have admitted to cutting their time. You have literally admitted to stealing from your employer. Think about that.

2. A lot of associates who pride themselves on being efficient give me work product with a ton of typos and errors a fourth grader could make. It is much more efficient for you as an associate at a lower billing rate to provide me with a work product that is error free that I can trust and take a lot more time on it. A lot of times the efficient associates have the worst bills because I know I cannot trust them on any tasks I do and have to re-do their work product. The truly efficient associates don't need to have their work product reviewed carefully. That is the true efficiency.

3. Your fundamental job as a lawyer is not to be efficient. It is to be thorough. If you mess up your assignment and transaction, it will not be a malpractice defense that you were trying to be "efficient".

4. Firms know which associates cut their time. They don't usually like using people who steal from them.

Danger Zone

Platinum
Posts: 8258
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Danger Zone » Mon May 09, 2016 10:54 am

A lot of confusion between efficiency and productivity ITT, two measures which are often at odds.
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
El Pollito

Diamond
Posts: 20139
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by El Pollito » Mon May 09, 2016 11:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:Want to add a few more thoughts from my experience.

1. People in this topic have admitted to cutting their time. You have literally admitted to stealing from your employer. Think about that.

2. A lot of associates who pride themselves on being efficient give me work product with a ton of typos and errors a fourth grader could make. It is much more efficient for you as an associate at a lower billing rate to provide me with a work product that is error free that I can trust and take a lot more time on it. A lot of times the efficient associates have the worst bills because I know I cannot trust them on any tasks I do and have to re-do their work product. The truly efficient associates don't need to have their work product reviewed carefully. That is the true efficiency.

3. Your fundamental job as a lawyer is not to be efficient. It is to be thorough. If you mess up your assignment and transaction, it will not be a malpractice defense that you were trying to be "efficient".

4. Firms know which associates cut their time. They don't usually like using people who steal from them.
Quickly scrolling through, one person has admitted to unintentionally cutting their time. The rest of us said the "bill as much as you want and the partners will take care of it" conventional wisdom doesn't work in all situations, which is hardly offensive or wrong.

As to 3, clients increasingly disagree with you there.

At least for non-lit people, cutting time isn't the only way to be efficient. Once you have a solid precedent bank, most of the time you're not starting from scratch on new assignments. For lit people, it seems efficiency still isn't that big a deal, so go nuts.

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 09, 2016 11:21 am

El Pollito wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Want to add a few more thoughts from my experience.

1. People in this topic have admitted to cutting their time. You have literally admitted to stealing from your employer. Think about that.

2. A lot of associates who pride themselves on being efficient give me work product with a ton of typos and errors a fourth grader could make. It is much more efficient for you as an associate at a lower billing rate to provide me with a work product that is error free that I can trust and take a lot more time on it. A lot of times the efficient associates have the worst bills because I know I cannot trust them on any tasks I do and have to re-do their work product. The truly efficient associates don't need to have their work product reviewed carefully. That is the true efficiency.

3. Your fundamental job as a lawyer is not to be efficient. It is to be thorough. If you mess up your assignment and transaction, it will not be a malpractice defense that you were trying to be "efficient".

4. Firms know which associates cut their time. They don't usually like using people who steal from them.
Quickly scrolling through, one person has admitted to unintentionally cutting their time. The rest of us said the "bill as much as you want and the partners will take care of it" conventional wisdom doesn't work in all situations, which is hardly offensive or wrong.

As to 3, clients increasingly disagree with you there.

At least for non-lit people, cutting time isn't the only way to be efficient. Once you have a solid precedent bank, most of the time you're not starting from scratch on new assignments. For lit people, it seems efficiency still isn't that big a deal, so go nuts.
Clients don't care about 3 because they can just sue your firm if you make a mistake. Does your firm's engagement letter say that being efficient will be an absolute defense to a malpractice action? Or are you just willing to put your firms liability on the line in your practice?

kcdc1

Silver
Posts: 992
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:48 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by kcdc1 » Mon May 09, 2016 11:28 am

lacrossebrother wrote:Also err heavily on the side of formality, so you don't have to do the same thing again, but "more formal."
This rings true for me. I'm often tempted to do quick and informal notes to get my thoughts down, and then I kick myself when I'm struggling to parse my notes and re-reading source materials a couple weeks later.

smallfirmassociate

Bronze
Posts: 400
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:47 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by smallfirmassociate » Mon May 09, 2016 11:44 am

Not sure how many of my non-biglaw tips translate, but:

1. Write stuff down. I often literally write (gasp!) notes on a legal pad if I just want to keep track of a few cases or a few important facts. If it's going to be more info, I'll type a memo (if my thoughts are organized) or just copy and paste relevant sections of caselaw into a memo with citations and with some of my own notes, in a loose outline format.

2. Put it in the file! I keep paper files for all my clients, and my assistants know how I like the files organized. In complex litigation that involves thousands of docs, there can be multiple accordion files, up to: Discovery, Pleadings, Correspondence, Research & Preparation. When trial prep comes around, I grab all of my research first. Reading things in my own language is an efficient reminder of the major issues and law. Having an organized, physical file is a huge time saver for me.

3. Kill the internet. I spend a lot of time screwing off between tasks. There's no replacement for becoming self-aware about this. About five months ago, I made a conscious effort to notice when I'm wasting time. I still screw around, but if I'm 30 seconds in to a 4-minute video on Facebook and realize it sucks, I now catch myself and say, "What the fuck am I doing?" and shut it off to get back to work, saving myself 3.5 minutes. At one point I probably would have just watched it because, you know, shiny things.

4. Be positive. If you get down on your lack of efficiency, it spirals and gets worse. Two things I've learned not just in law but in general are that: (1) everyone fucks off; and (2) people lie about how much work they do. A lot of people who say they work 60 hours a week actually might spend that much time "working" to get just 15 hours of real work done. You're not alone. Just roll with it.
Last edited by smallfirmassociate on Mon May 09, 2016 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Desert Fox

Diamond
Posts: 18283
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Desert Fox » Mon May 09, 2016 11:58 am

lol at not recording time being THEFT from my employer. If I thought it was I'd do it more often.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


User avatar
Johann

Diamond
Posts: 19704
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Johann » Mon May 09, 2016 12:06 pm

yeah im pretty sure if EP and DF are in agreement on something, they are right. they are all solid biglawyers. no surprise that anonymosses and law students with disagree with them.

User avatar
El Pollito

Diamond
Posts: 20139
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by El Pollito » Mon May 09, 2016 12:47 pm

I appreciate the bizarre anon accusations though. Apologies for trying to add nuance to advice that isn't categorically good.

User avatar
Desert Fox

Diamond
Posts: 18283
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Desert Fox » Mon May 09, 2016 1:11 pm

El Pollito wrote:I appreciate the bizarre anon accusations though. Apologies for trying to add nuance to advice that isn't categorically good.
go 2 jail, u R stealing bread from partners mouths!
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
El Pollito

Diamond
Posts: 20139
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by El Pollito » Mon May 09, 2016 1:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
El Pollito wrote:I appreciate the bizarre anon accusations though. Apologies for trying to add nuance to advice that isn't categorically good.
go 2 jail, u R stealing bread from partners mouths!
We have no one to blame for cheese plate but ourselves.

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 09, 2016 2:22 pm

Whats the verdict on recycling a motion that was previously prepared and billing for the time it would have taken to do in the first instance? Partners here say to do variations of this. I caught a plaintiff's attorney billing ~47 hours on a fee motion when he had submitted essentially the same motion in a prior case. Court just cut the time. If I wanted to be a dick, I'm sure the state bar would have investigation on charges of "moral turpitude" but that doesn't interest me.

patentlitigatrix

Silver
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:18 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by patentlitigatrix » Mon May 09, 2016 4:44 pm

I used to be at a law firm where I was explicitly told to spend more time on things because the client will pay for it without question. I would be assigned projects to do that were obviously bill-churning research projects that were unconnected to any case and otherwise lacked much of a point. One of the many reasons I left. As Desert said, that shit is unethical as fuck. And from an associate development perspective, not awesome for that either because it is not actually real work.

And I feel (1) a duty to my clients to provide the best work product I can, but also to use my judgment about when to stop working on something when the additional work is not worth their money and (2) a duty to the partners I work with to use the best judgment i can to not do work that will need to be written off, which negatively impacts the firm. This isn't just an issue for partners to deal with.

Nebby

Diamond
Posts: 31195
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:23 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Nebby » Mon May 09, 2016 5:30 pm

El Pollito wrote:This is the spiel you'll hear from partners, but everyone knows it's not true in practice. How long have you worked in biglaw?
Pretty sure Mono is a 3L

User avatar
El Pollito

Diamond
Posts: 20139
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by El Pollito » Mon May 09, 2016 5:38 pm

Nebby wrote:
El Pollito wrote:This is the spiel you'll hear from partners, but everyone knows it's not true in practice. How long have you worked in biglaw?
Pretty sure Mono is a 3L
I wasn't sure if 3L or first year, but either way you've correctly identified the point I was making.

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


User avatar
Tiago Splitter

Diamond
Posts: 17148
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Tiago Splitter » Mon May 09, 2016 6:03 pm

patentlitigatrix wrote:I used to be at a law firm where I was explicitly told to spend more time on things because the client will pay for it without question. I would be assigned projects to do that were obviously bill-churning research projects that were unconnected to any case and otherwise lacked much of a point. One of the many reasons I left. As Desert said, that shit is unethical as fuck. And from an associate development perspective, not awesome for that either because it is not actually real work.

And I feel (1) a duty to my clients to provide the best work product I can, but also to use my judgment about when to stop working on something when the additional work is not worth their money and (2) a duty to the partners I work with to use the best judgment i can to not do work that will need to be written off, which negatively impacts the firm. This isn't just an issue for partners to deal with.
and (3) a duty to myself to go home at a normal hour when that's an option. All this talk about purposely working inefficiently to rack up billables ignores that fact that doing so often just keeps you at the office longer.

RaceJudicata

Gold
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:51 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by RaceJudicata » Mon May 09, 2016 7:12 pm

Working inefficiently to rack up billables seems short-sighted. Wouldn't you be better served to work efficiently and effectively --> get put on more assignments --> rack up more meaningful hours. And from a partner's perspective, result in more engagements from the client.

This of course assumes that the person wants to be given more work...which is unlikely for most.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428118
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Anonymous User » Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 pm

Clients don't care about 3 because they can just sue your firm if you make a mistake. Does your firm's engagement letter say that being efficient will be an absolute defense to a malpractice action? Or are you just willing to put your firms liability on the line in your practice?
This sounds like an incredible overestimation of the likelihood of prevailing on a malpractice case.

User avatar
Monochromatic Oeuvre

Gold
Posts: 2479
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Mon May 09, 2016 8:18 pm

El Pollito wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Actually, it works in any situations in which there is not literally less time to complete a project or projects than is "normal" to complete the project.

And by the way, it's more unethical AND dumb to attempt to reduce your hours below what you know to be the "usual" time to complete the project by devising these "efficiency strategies," because you're robbing your firm of the money it could have made and expected to make. Your job is to do the work properly and report how long it took, not to finish it as quickly as possible. It's the partner's job to decide how many of those hours to bill the client for, and if you need to be more efficient, they'll definitely let you know, but it's not your job to make that decision unilaterally.
This is the spiel you'll hear from partners, but everyone knows it's not true in practice. How long have you worked in biglaw?
Uh, "in practice" half the associates are straight-up making up hours and another 40% are billing entirely unnecessary shit. And "in practice" firms are spending much more energy to tell associates to "bill ALL their time" than telling them to bill less.

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


User avatar
rpupkin

Platinum
Posts: 5653
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by rpupkin » Mon May 09, 2016 8:25 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Actually, it works in any situations in which there is not literally less time to complete a project or projects than is "normal" to complete the project.

And by the way, it's more unethical AND dumb to attempt to reduce your hours below what you know to be the "usual" time to complete the project by devising these "efficiency strategies," because you're robbing your firm of the money it could have made and expected to make. Your job is to do the work properly and report how long it took, not to finish it as quickly as possible. It's the partner's job to decide how many of those hours to bill the client for, and if you need to be more efficient, they'll definitely let you know, but it's not your job to make that decision unilaterally.
This is the spiel you'll hear from partners, but everyone knows it's not true in practice. How long have you worked in biglaw?
Uh, "in practice" half the associates are straight-up making up hours and another 40% are billing entirely unnecessary shit.
Are you part of the 10% that bills only for authentic, necessary shit?

User avatar
El Pollito

Diamond
Posts: 20139
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by El Pollito » Mon May 09, 2016 8:28 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Actually, it works in any situations in which there is not literally less time to complete a project or projects than is "normal" to complete the project.

And by the way, it's more unethical AND dumb to attempt to reduce your hours below what you know to be the "usual" time to complete the project by devising these "efficiency strategies," because you're robbing your firm of the money it could have made and expected to make. Your job is to do the work properly and report how long it took, not to finish it as quickly as possible. It's the partner's job to decide how many of those hours to bill the client for, and if you need to be more efficient, they'll definitely let you know, but it's not your job to make that decision unilaterally.
This is the spiel you'll hear from partners, but everyone knows it's not true in practice. How long have you worked in biglaw?
Uh, "in practice" half the associates are straight-up making up hours and another 40% are billing entirely unnecessary shit. And "in practice" firms are spending much more energy to tell associates to "bill ALL their time" than telling them to bill less.
I no longer know what you're talking about, but I'm guessing you're still in law school.

User avatar
El Pollito

Diamond
Posts: 20139
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: Working efficiently

Post by El Pollito » Mon May 09, 2016 8:35 pm

Or perhaps you just went through orientation and don't yet realize that efficiency and the amount of your time that gets written off will matter a lot in a couple of years.

kcdc1

Silver
Posts: 992
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:48 am

Re: Working efficiently

Post by kcdc1 » Mon May 09, 2016 8:47 pm

Why is this still going? For a given task, you should spend roughly how long you think the client expects the task to take. You should also try to be efficient enough to do a good job in that time. If you can't, it's generally better to take longer so that you can do a good job, but that has limits.

Can we go back to the tips? Those were more useful than this bizarre debate over whether it's good to be efficient.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


Post Reply Post Anonymous Reply  

Return to “Legal Employment”