HUD Legal Honor Taking Questions Forum

[GovtAtty]

I'm a recent US Dept. of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Legal Honors member, and I wanted to put this thread out there in case any prospective HUD legal honors had questions I could help with.

In my case, I found a decent amount of info about the application process a TLS forum, but it was very difficult to find out about what it was like to be a legal honors at HUD. Even if this post is many years old, I'll still try to answer any questions someone might have!

[zot1]

Do you like the work?

[Anonymous User]

What are your basic credentials (law school range, etc)? I'm assuming that like DOJ Honors this was a straight from law school/clerk gig?

[GovtAtty]

Do you like the work?

I like the work I do at HUD. There's a wide range of things you can do, and I can only speak for my own office within HUD. You can do ethics/personnel law, fair housing/discrimination, transactional work/real estate closings, defensive litigation, etc. Each office has its own miniature culture.

I will say HUD's Office of General Counsel is very good at making sure you are happy with what you are doing. If you want to try a different area of law in another office, or even work for HUD in a different region - they will work hard to accommodate you and make sure you are satisfied with your job. During your legal honors year, you can do 1-2 rotations in another HUD office (or even outside of HUD) to increase your experience and perspective, so it's a good way of trying out another part of HUD.

[GovtAtty]

What are your basic credentials (law school range, etc)? I'm assuming that like DOJ Honors this was a straight from law school/clerk gig?

My impression is that all the legal honors came straight from law school or a clerkship.

I went to a T-35 public law school, I only had a 3.3 GPA and no moot court/journal, but I had some HUD-related work experience that I think set me apart.

What I liked about HUD's hiring of legal honors, for the years I saw at least, is they didn't just pick the candidates from the top schools with the best grades. I think they value public service (whether it is military service or AmeriCorps) and people who can show in interviews they care about HUD's work specifically. At least one person from my class was from a Tier 3 law school who had lots of relevant practical experience, and he's one of the best lawyers I've seen. I appreciate that HUD really values diversity (of all kinds) in hiring - I think it makes the agency stronger with more varied perspectives working here.

[Anonymous User]

Hello,

First of all, thanks for doing this.

Few Qs:

1) Are you exiting from HUD? If so, to where?

2) What were some responsibilities that were handed down to you as legal honors attorney? Do you get to take initiative or is it very much "governmental" (9-5, life > work)?

3) Does applying to the field office your school is in as first choice increase your chance of getting in as opposed to say, having DC as your top choice and some other regions you might be interested in?

4) How does the payscale work? 14-months of GS-11, then when converted to full-time, GS-12, 13, 14, 14.2, 14.3 so on and so forth?

5) If you have an offer from a firm doing similar work as HUD (i.e. affordable housing development, but representing lenders in FHA transactions) and also an offer from HUD, which would you choose?

Thank you so much for your time!

[GovtAtty]

1) I'm not exiting HUD. If I did, I would probably only go elsewhere in the federal government. I don't know really much about where HUD people go upon leaving HUD, but I think mainly it's to firms that do transactional real estate.

2) I was given a lot of responsibility quickly. I was treated as just another lawyer in my division, although as a new person I got some of the less complex, lower stakes legal work. But that makes sense, since I was learning the job and more senior attorneys should handle more difficult matters. I had plenty of work to keep me busy, and was given opportunities to take more on if I had wanted to.

Generally they try to place legal honors only in HUD offices who need more lawyers; places where there is plenty of work to do. If you find yourself not having enough work, I think they are very open to moving you to another office that you'd want to transfer to.

3) I'm not sure. If it's helpful, on my application I marked that I'd be willing to work anywhere, then just got assigned to DC.

4) Start as a GS-11, after 12 months you move up to GS-12, after another 12 months move up to GS-13, another 12 months to GS-14, and then I think you increase by step. So you get consistent annual promotions, and when you start your 5th year you are earning a GS-14 salary, which I think is pretty nice. I'm not sure how other agencies do it.

5) I think it's all about your personal preferences. For me, I really like the job security at HUD, the hours, and that I don't have to bill hours or network for business. I also like the diversity of the HUD workforce and working in government, even if at times the bureaucracy can be frustrating.

I don't know much about working for a firm, but I assume the upsides are higher pay, better amenities (your IT, your office space, etc.) and possibly more interesting or challenging work - depending on what you're doing.

Hope that's helpful - I'm happy to answer any other questions. When I started, I had no idea that it is all but assured that all legal honors will be hired permanently. I assumed most did, but didn't know it really would be an extreme outlier if you passed the bar (you get three tries!) and didn't get converted. So I'm glad to be able to help fill in some information gaps since there is such little info publicly available.

Hello,

First of all, thanks for doing this.

Few Qs:

1) Are you exiting from HUD? If so, to where?

2) What were some responsibilities that were handed down to you as legal honors attorney? Do you get to take initiative or is it very much "governmental" (9-5, life > work)?

3) Does applying to the field office your school is in as first choice increase your chance of getting in as opposed to say, having DC as your top choice and some other regions you might be interested in?

4) How does the payscale work? 14-months of GS-11, then when converted to full-time, GS-12, 13, 14, 14.2, 14.3 so on and so forth?

5) If you have an offer from a firm doing similar work as HUD (i.e. affordable housing development, but representing lenders in FHA transactions) and also an offer from HUD, which would you choose?

Thank you so much for your time!

[Anonymous User]

Anon above. Thx for such a detailed response. Anon only because I'll be applying to the program soon!

Just couple more Qs:

1) How big is the DC office? (How many attorneys?) What are the "humanly" interactions like? Since its govt, u obviously wont be interacting with clients per se, but id imagine a lot of exchanges amongst agencies and internal communications. But I'd like to hear from an insider rather than speculate.

2) what's ur typical day like? Is there a particularly hectic season? If you dont mind me asking, what division are you in within the HQ and what are some of the substantive works that you get to do?

3) Would you say being in DC HQ is more "prestigious" than other offices? And by prestige, I mean the work that you get to do which are "more" substantive and national (rather than local), and perhaps exit-opps as well in the event you don't particularly find govt work interesting.

4) hows DC CoL treating you with govt salary? I, like most other law students, am seating on debt and DC housing/CoL worries me (not that I'll get DC office anyway, but assuming that I do get to go to HQ). I did see that the agency forgives some portion of the debt, but seems pretty insignificant.

5) Do you max out at GS-14 and from that point and on, is it step by step per year? Sounds like up to GS-14 is a guarantee, and anything after that would be merit based.

6) I'm at a T20 with a sub-par GPA, but with significant relevant experience. I have a potential first-yr attorney position with a firm that deals with this issue and pays biglaw market (well, market from 2007), but I'm very interested in the work HUD is doing and would be interested to see if I can be involved in policy. But I realized while working at a govt agency that this is extremely improbable from the bottom, and am worried I might be spinning wheels w/o much if any fruit for many yrs if I decide to join HUD (again, this is with a big "if" - if I do get the offer).

7) I have an informational interview lined up with HUD in August through OCI. Any tips going forward would be much appreciated! (And perhaps a vague timeline of hiring).

Sorry to ask so many Qs. Please take your time. And thx again u r awesome.

[Anonymous User]

What's the drug test situation at HUD, Legal Honors or otherwise?

[Hand]

Do you like the work?

I like the work I do at HUD. There's a wide range of things you can I only speak for my own office. You can do ethics/personnel law, fair housing/discrimination, transactional work/real estate closings, defensive litigation, etc. Each office has its own miniature culture.

I will say HUD's Office of General Counsel is very good at making sure you are happy with what you are doing. If you want to try a different area of law in another office, or even work for HUD in a different region - they will work hard to accommodate you and make sure you are satisfied with your job. During your legal honors year, you can do 1-2 rotations in another HUD office (or even outside of HUD) to increase your experience and perspective, so it's a good way of trying out another part of HUD.

How certain can you be that you'll end up doing the work you want, if you're only interested in one part (say, non-hypothetically for me, fair housing work)?

[zot1]

Not at HUD.

In regards to location preferences, your chances of getting hired will increase dramatically if you're willing to move anywhere. The reason for that is that there's no way to anticipate which branches will have a vacancy when you apply. Applying broadly definitely gives you the better odds.

As to your interview, I would ask GovAtty in depth about the work done at HUD. Make sure you know what you'd be doing if hired.

As to the drugs question, come on now.

[GovtAtty]

I haven't been drug tested or heard of any at HUD who has. After accepting your offer, you have your fingerprints run and some sort of background check (I didn't get the impression it was very intensive, but I don't know). It seems very unlikely that you'd be drug tested, but I'm not sure what HUD's official policy is on it.

What's the drug test situation at HUD, Legal Honors or otherwise?

[TransferHopeful17]

How much weight are internships during law school with federal government given?

I am interested in a few honors programs, including HUD, and while I will have interned with 3 different agencies during law school, none of the 3 is HUD. However, I have worked on a few assignments that I could relate to some of the work HUD does.

[Anonymous User]

To retain some anonymity I won't name my specific office - but if you DM me, I can share that with you and more details about the work I do.

1) In the Office of General Counsel, the division that employs all the HUD legal honors, there are about 650 people. I think it's split roughly evenly between HQ and the field offices. It seems like a lot of attorneys to me.

I see offices that interact with Congress, other agencies, DOJ, HUD's OIG, local housing authorities, and the private sector if you're doing closings - it'll just depend on where you get placed.

2) My typical day is working on one of my multiple assignments - whichever I think is most pressing. Maybe every other month I'll have a hectic project and I'll work longer hours - which I enjoy because I get to save those extra hours to use as vacation time later. If you DM me, I can explain a bit more about what I do and what the office is like.

3) HQ does get some unique work (I'd say in terms of policymaking, Congressional relations, some litigation) that isn't as suited for the field offices. But field offices get a better view of what HUD and its partners are actually getting accomplished on the ground. They know what policies and regulations are or are not translating well to the real world. They also get to close multi-million dollar real estate deals.

And I know the current Secretary spent a lot of time visiting field offices in his first year, and I think he still travels a lot. I've never met him but many of my legal honor friends in the field have.

I think HUD HQ is sensitive that field offices can feel left out, so I've often heard about the effort to improve communications, solicit feedback and act on it, etc. to guard against that. There is also a lot of meetings via video conferencing between field and HQ.

4) There is a HUD student loan repaypment - the max is 6k/year and 40k total - but it depends on how much HUD budgets for it. So far I've gotten about $2,300/year (the payout formula depends on your salary, debt, and how many ppl apply).

The transit subsidy also helps with CoL.

DC can be expensive, but you have options. Some parts of N. Virginia aren't far to commute from (Fairfax, Alexandria, Falls Church, etc.) and are more affordable - though some millennials prefer to pay a premium to live in 'cooler' DC spots.

I dislike DC's height act, but at least there's been a steady amount of construction and housing isn't as high as NYC or SF.

5) I'm not sure. I think you increase by step after GS-14, not sure how your performance affects that. I have heard some people will be a supervisor to get GS-15, then a couple years later when they stop being a supervisor, they keep the GS-15 pay.

6) I do know HUD hires a lot of lateral hires, I'd guess most from law firms. So if you choose the firm route, you can always apply to HUD jobs a few years later. With all the baby boomers, I'm sure there will be steady openings.

I will say the General Counsel's office likes to support and encourage young lawyers who are ambitious. If you aren't feeling challenged, they will work with you to get you assignments or in an office where you are. They invest time and money into HUD legal honors, so they want to keep you happy so you'll have a long career at HUD.

HUD works on a variety of complex programs and laws, and if you can master one area of them, you can very quickly become the "go to" in-house expert.

7) Just to be able to talk specifically about HUD and why you want to work for HUD. All your answers shouldn't be generic enough they could apply to any agency. I think they will care much more about how your interests/experiences relate to HUD, rather than hearing about your academic accolades.

Anon above. Thx for such a detailed response. Anon only because I'll be applying to the program soon!

Just couple more Qs:

1) How big is the DC office? (How many attorneys?) What are the "humanly" interactions like? Since its govt, u obviously wont be interacting with clients per se, but id imagine a lot of exchanges amongst agencies and internal communications. But I'd like to hear from an insider rather than speculate.

2) what's ur typical day like? Is there a particularly hectic season? If you dont mind me asking, what division are you in within the HQ and what are some of the substantive works that you get to do?

3) Would you say being in DC HQ is more "prestigious" than other offices? And by prestige, I mean the work that you get to do which are "more" substantive and national (rather than local), and perhaps exit-opps as well in the event you don't particularly find govt work interesting.

4) hows DC CoL treating you with govt salary? I, like most other law students, am seating on debt and DC housing/CoL worries me (not that I'll get DC office anyway, but assuming that I do get to go to HQ). I did see that the agency forgives some portion of the debt, but seems pretty insignificant.

5) Do you max out at GS-14 and from that point and on, is it step by step per year? Sounds like up to GS-14 is a guarantee, and anything after that would be merit based.

6) I'm at a T20 with a sub-par GPA, but with significant relevant experience. I have a potential first-yr attorney position with a firm that deals with this issue and pays biglaw market (well, market from 2007), but I'm very interested in the work HUD is doing and would be interested to see if I can be involved in policy. But I realized while working at a govt agency that this is extremely improbable from the bottom, and am worried I might be spinning wheels w/o much if any fruit for many yrs if I decide to join HUD (again, this is with a big "if" - if I do get the offer).

7) I have an informational interview lined up with HUD in August through OCI. Any tips going forward would be much appreciated! (And perhaps a vague timeline of hiring).

Sorry to ask so many Qs. Please take your time. And thx again u r awesome.

[Anonymous User]

I haven't been on any hiring committee so my insight on that area is pretty limited and speculative, but my impression is that those internships w/ federal agencies will still be helpful - it shows you're interested in government service, may have picked up applicable experience, etc. Compared to someone who did non-housing stuff at a BigLaw over the summers, I'd think working at federal agencies would be more appealing to them.

How much weight are internships during law school with federal government given?

I am interested in a few honors programs, including HUD, and while I will have interned with 3 different agencies during law school, none of the 3 is HUD. However, I have worked on a few assignments that I could relate to some of the work HUD does.

[zot1]

5) I'm not sure. I think you increase by step after GS-14, not sure how your performance affects that. I have heard some people will be a supervisor to get GS-15, then a couple years later when they stop being a supervisor, they keep the GS-15 pay.

5) Do you max out at GS-14 and from that point and on, is it step by step per year? Sounds like up to GS-14 is a guarantee, and anything after that would be merit based.



.

Steps are automatically given to you on predetermined time periods (steps 2,3 and 4 every year; steps 5,6, and 7 every 2 years, etc). However, when you get a grade increase (GS 11 to GS 12), you do not get the step increase.

If you are given low performance review, that can prevent you from getting a step increase. Otherwise it happens automatically.

[rtmallard30]

Thank you very much for taking questions! There's definitely a lack of information out there on government positions.

I am just wondering about a couple of things..

- Can you speak to what the work culture at HUD is like? i.e. are your colleagues supportive? do a lot of the attorneys use the flex time option?

- Do you have any insight on the different divisions at HUD? Even any general impressions you've gotten of the divisions would be really helpful.

- Anything that surprised you about the legal honors program, that would be helpful to know?

Thanks so much.

[GovtAtty]

Thank you very much for taking questions! There's definitely a lack of information out there on government positions.

I am just wondering about a couple of things..

- Can you speak to what the work culture at HUD is like? i.e. are your colleagues supportive? do a lot of the attorneys use the flex time option?

- Do you have any insight on the different divisions at HUD? Even any general impressions you've gotten of the divisions would be really helpful.

- Anything that surprised you about the legal honors program, that would be helpful to know?

Thanks so much.

1. As for HUD culture - I think it's pretty collegial and enjoyable. The Office of General Counsel has a diverse range of intelligent lawyers. In my office, I tend to socialize more frequently with the attorneys closer to my age (near 30) than older attorneys, but still feel comfortable chatting with them even though we have less in common.

An upside is the lack of zero-sum competition you may have at firms. My fellow legal honors and I all get promoted and pay raises each year. The old, ugly HQ building is not great, and sometimes the bureaucracy can be frustrating, but it's something HUD people bond over.

Flex Time - yes. A lot of attorneys come in very early and leave very early, others do the opposite - both ways help you avoid rush hour. Some people do the alternative work schedule (work 10 hrs/day and have 3 day weekends). Telework is also a really great option. You can generally telework up to three days per week. I love the flexibility of flex times and telework.

2. I don't know much about other divisions, but if you're interested in a specific division, I can probably put you in touch with a recent legal honor from that division or field office. I can give you some specifics about my division if you DM me.

3. The fact that everyone gets converted to permanent HUD attorneys didn't shock me, but I wish someone had told me earlier.

I only had one interview in a field office outside DC with two lower-level HUD attorneys before getting accepted. (I believe every HUD applicant only had one interview, but it still surprises me since some places have multiple interview rounds). I was worried that either 1) I'd only be offered a position in the field office, which I wasn't particularly interested in or 2) I'd be at a disadvantage since I wasn't really interviewing with the DC HQ people who made the ultimate decision. I ended up working in a DC division under managers who never interviewed me - so the way HUD does hiring surprised me a bit.

In my feedback, I told HUD I wish they would talk more with new hires before they arrive. I had no idea what I'd be doing for HUD after I accepted, I was just given a day and time to show up, and I was just happy to have a federal job. But I hope they interact more with new hires in the future.

Hope that's helpful. Let me know if you any other specific questions.

[Anonymous User]

Would you mind sharing more about what your interview experience was like (types of questions you were asked, people you met with, etc.)?

Thanks so much for doing this!

[GovtAtty]

Would you mind sharing more about what your interview experience was like (types of questions you were asked, people you met with, etc.)?

Thanks so much for doing this!

First - some important advice that I've forgotten to mention. If a HUD representative comes to your school and speaks on a panel (like with other government employers) - be sure to go and introduce yourself before or after to the HUD person. I didn't do this, since I felt HUD was a long shot and I already knew I wanted to apply, but later learned they will pay attention people who show interest at these events. When they review your application, they may remember you from their visit to your law school.

Okay, interviews - I believe I promised to keep my interview questions confidential so I won't say what exactly what I was asked, but will give more general advice. They also may have changed them since my time.

(For specific questions though - some law schools have students fill out a post-interview form that future students can learn from, and they often include the exact questions. When I learned about this I was disappointed my law school didn't offer this to us - it seems to give other student an advantage knowing the questions going into interviews!)

I was interviewed by two field attorneys in a HUD conference room - one attorney had been with HUD just 3-5 years and the other was a more senior attorney. They asked me scripted questions, were very polite and friendly, and they took down notes as I answered. Since they are taking notes, it helps not to speak too fast. I know, because they asked me a couple times to repeat myself. I rambled a bit since I like talking about government, policy, and what I had worked on, but I think that was helpful since there were a limited number of questions and it gave them a better chance to know me.

It lasted only about 20-25 minutes I'd guess. They thanked me and I left.

My advice is to learn a lot about HUD specifically and be able to draw on that in your answers. Some divisions within HUD can be difficult to get public info about how they work day to day, but you can at least read Washington Post articles that show what things are causing HUD to make headlines. I think they will be much more interested in your interests in HUD and HUD-related work you do rather than you talking about your grades or class rank. I also guess they are trying to figure out who sees HUD as a back up to getting a federal position (and don't really care about HUD), and who is actually eager to work for HUD. I didn't lie and say I'd been dreaming about working for HUD for years or I wouldn't work anywhere but HUD, but I was genuinely excited about the work they do and the role they play.

[norrR]

It has been a few years since anyone has posted to this thread, but maybe I will get lucky . . .
I just submitted my application for this years legal honors program and just had a few questions.

1) Are you still working for HUD? If so, has your opinion changed at all regarding your work at HUD and has the legal honors process changed significantly that you know of?

2) Do you remember how long after the application window closes that they begin calling and interiewing candidates? HUD is my top choice for where I want to work and I have been checking my email everyday, which is probably not the healthiest.

3) Do you have any general thoughts on the competitiveness of the program? Have application numbers remained high in your opinion? I have good grades at a Tier II Law school, with relevant HUD experience, moot court/journal experience, and a internship at another federal agency (No HUD offices near my school unfortunately).

4) I am eager to work in Fair Housing Enforcement, but also would like to learn about all facets of HUD and perhaps I might surprise myself on what I like the most. However, do you know of any particular areas of work within HUD that the department is actively seeking more help in? For instance, is there a particular emphasis of work which HUD might prefer a candidate be willing to work in?

5) On the application, you are instructed to pick your top three locations to work at. Do you know how the process of placements work? I chose my clear top three, but if it made a difference I would obviously work at any office. Do you know if you are selected, do you get a choice on your top three, or will they ultimately place you where needed? On this note also, is the pay scale range correlated with the cost of living in the area in which you are working (i.e. New York's pay would be higher that Kansas City)?

6) Lastly, I have been debating whether or not to reach out to someone at HUD in the hopes of learning more about the department and what makes a good candidate. However, since the application window has closed, I am also wondering if this would come off as over-eager.

Any insight is very much appreciated and even if I do not get a response to these questions, this thread was very anyway. Thanks!

[billybobaward]

It has been a few years since anyone has posted to this thread, but maybe I will get lucky . . .
I just submitted my application for this years legal honors program and just had a few questions.

Any luck?

[Anonymous User]

I'm not the original poster but I'm a recent HUD Legal Honor who's willing to answer questions!

[Anonymous User]

I'm not the original poster but I'm a recent HUD Legal Honor who's willing to answer questions!

Do you know of any current HUD employees in policy roles that were able to transition to attorney jobs after working at HUD for a few years?

Would love to chat about this with you.

[brother]

I'm a recent US Dept. of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Legal Honors member, and I wanted to put this thread out there in case any prospective HUD legal honors had questions I could help with.

In my case, I found a decent amount of info about the application process a TLS forum, but it was very difficult to find out about what it was like to be a legal honors at HUD. Even if this post is many years old, I'll still try to answer any questions someone might have!

Do you know how feasible it is to transition into HUD after working a few years in BigLaw (real estate) straight out of law school?